Will Allah Punish a Good Hindu?

[Sahar]

I do not disagree that it is great or better to do good with devotion to God. But does that discount the good that we do without devotion to God? Was that prostitute doing good with devotion to God?

I think yes. What is understood that a moment of pure faith and sincerity to God can outweigh anything and everything else.

Are you saying that without Islam, one cannot be good?

Why are you so focused on this issue and interestingly I replied to it before? :sarcastic

What I was saying that Islam is the emphasis on our natural inclination to good, Islam makes it grow to its most beautiful form. I never said that the non Muslim can't do good.

Do you think the Muslim cleric would go to hell or heaven?

This is one of the meaningless questions that can be asked. The only one who will judge is God. I can't tell if I will go to heaven or hell, how about judging others?!

 

[Madhuri]

I don't view goodness and love as god but I view God as loving and the source of all love and good, and there is a big difference between the two.

What is the difference between being love and being the source of love?
To you, what exactly is God, and what is love?

 

[Madhuri]

I think yes. What is understood that a moment of pure faith and sincerity to God can outweigh anything and everything else.

It is funny how even a sentence as straight forward as this involves specific understanding and interpretation. For example, if a Hindu said this, I would absolutely understand and agree. But for different reasons.

I do not understand the mainstream concept of Allah. He seems so different to my understanding of God.
When I contemplate my concept of God, I think of love and life. God is One- and in Hinduism, that means something different to in Islam. Oneness, in Vedic philosophy, is non different to Love. It is unity. God is One- God is Unity- we are all part of that unity. We are all bound to one another and love is the binding force.

So if a Hindu says that a moment of sincerity to God outweighs anything, it means that in that moment, we are surrendered to Love- to unity. As we come closer to realising the divine, our sense of love is expanded- our love is infinite.

To feel love, to express it through selfless acts, in non-different to experiencing God. There is nothing greater than to live in love.

Now when a person tells me that their idea of God contradicts this, it is difficult for me to 1) make sense of the idea and 2) feel good about it.
My experience of Love shapes how I see the world, how I see human behaviour. It makes perfect sense. It is what keeps my faith in something greater than this material existence. Exploring the idea that any kind of genuine love experienced and expressed is not spiritual and wonderful or that it is not so valuable because God does not approve if you aren't consciously aware of Him- it is so alien an idea, so perverse, so laughable.

You have mentioned again and again what we must do- what Allah demands of us. But you have not made me understand. Is there any way that you can help me to understand how this concept of Allah makes sense to anyone.

 

[K.Venugopal]

This is one of the meaningless questions that can be asked. The only one who will judge is God. I can't tell if I will go to heaven or hell, how about judging others?!

Which means you don't know if God is going to punish the guy for worshiping Mohammad's hair? Which by extension also means that you don't know whether idol worshiping is a bad thing in the eyes of God? Wasn't the Quran sent down exactly to clarify these matters? Doesn't the Quran say explicitly that idol worship is a big no no? And isn't it for this reason that down the centuries the Muslims have been champion idol smashers, starting from Mohammad at the Ka'aba?

Actually, Sahar, your position is typical. You wouldn't hesitate to draw lines when it comes to non-Muslims' way of worship. But when Muslims themselves do it, the criticism is mutated, exactly as it is happening in Kerala. From the very same folks who did not hesitate to chop the hands of a Christian lecturer who they said insulted Mohammad in an exam paper he set for his students. Com'on Sahar, show some consistency in these matters.

 

[Sahar]

What is the difference between being love and being the source of love?
To you, what exactly is God, and what is love?

God to me...
Allah is singular in His essence with no partner, Unique with no equivalent, Absolute, no opposite has He, Alone without peer. He is beginningless without predecessor, perpetual of being without end, singularly sustaining everything without stop. He is not victim to termination or cessation, or to the elapsing of spans or the passing of interims. Rather He is the First and the Last; the Outward and the Inward – and He has knowledge of everything.

He is not a body with form, nor is He a confined or quantifiable substance. He does not resemble bodies in quantifiably or divisibility. Rather He resembles nothing existent, nor does anything existent resemble Him. There is absolutely nothing like Him, nor is He like anything.

No measure confines Him, no space contains Him, no direction encompasses Him, nor do the heavens surround Him.

He is above everything until the farthest reaches of the stars – an above-ness that does not increase His nearness to the heavens; rather He is exalted in degree above the heavens to the same extent that He is exalted in degree above the depths of the earth. Notwithstanding, He is near to all existence, and He is nearer to the bondsman than his jugular vein. His nearness, however, no more resembles the nearness of bodies one to another than His essence resembles the essences of bodies.

He is too sublime that space should encompass Him, as He is too hallowed that time should restrict Him. Rather He was, before He created time and space, and He is now as He was always. He is separate from His creation by His attributes. He is transcendentally holier than to be subject to change and movement. Rather He remains in His qualities of absolute majesty, not subject to abating, and in His qualities of perfection with no need of increase.
He is Living, Almighty, Irresistible, Overpowering; deficiency does not affect Him nor does incapacity. “No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.” Extinction and death do not counteract Him. He is possessed of absolute dominion, sovereignty, and grandeur; to Him is creation and command.

He is matchless in creating and beginning, solitary in causing existence and originating. He creates all beings and their acts, decrees their sustenance and spans. Nothing possible is outside His grasp, and He is never detached from the absolute governing of all affairs. His abilities cannot be enumerated, and His knowledge is boundless.

He knows all things knowable, encompassing all that transpires between the depths of the earths to the ends of the universe. Nothing of an atom’s weight in the earth and the heavens escapes His Knowledge; rather He knows the creeping of a black ant across a soundless stone on a lightless night. He knows the movement of the particles on a windy day. He knows the hidden and what is beyond. He presides over the thoughts of the conscience, the movements of the cerebrations, and the recondite subtleties of the psyche, with a beginningless, eternal Knowledge that has been with Him forever.
He is the willer of all that exists, and He is the director of all that occurs. Nothing occurs in the seen or unseen world, be it minimal or abundant, small or large, good or evil, beneficial or harmful, of belief or disbelief, knowledge or ignorance, triumph or ruin, increase or decrease, obedience or defiance, except by His decree, foreordainment, command, and volition. What He wills is, and what He does not will is not.

A servant has no escape from disobeying Him except through His conferred success and mercy; he has no power to obey Him except through His assistance and will. If all of mankind united together to move or retard a single atom in the universe without His will and volition, they would be unable to do so.

He hears and He sees. No audible thing, however faint, escapes His hearing, and no visible thing, however minute, is hidden from His sight. Distance does not impede His hearing and darkness does not obstruct His seeing. His attributes do not resemble the attributes of the creation to the same extent that His essence does not resemble the essences of creation.

Everything other than Him is an originated thing that He created by His power from nothingness, since He existed in eternity alone and there was nothing whatsoever with Him. He originated creation thereafter as a manifestation of His power and as a realization of His preceding Will, not because He had any need of it....

Imam Al-Ghazali: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/78073-allah.html

 

[Sahar]

Actually, Sahar, your position is typical. You wouldn't hesitate to draw lines when it comes to non-Muslims' way of worship.

You need to listen to what I have to say before making your flawed judgment. When anyone ask me if K.Venugopal will go to heaven or hell...my answer won't be any different.

I can't tell the fate of this or that specific person/soul but I can make general statements about idol worshiping or denying/deniers of the existence of God. Did you get that?

The qur'an showed us the way to gain Allah's love and pleasure and warned us from the ways that displease Him...but will Sahar or K.Venugopal go to heaven or hell? This thing is totally left to God since we don't know people's knowledge, what mingles inside their hearts/honesty/sincerity and circumstances and we have our vain desires that make us deviate from justice.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Sahar,

Have asked this question many times but am yet to find a suitable response:
Is Allah the same as Brahman / God / Tao / etc??

Love & rgds

 

[K.Venugopal]

You need to listen to what I have to say before making your flawed judgment. When anyone ask me if K.Venugopal will go to heaven or hell...my answer won't be any different.

I can't tell the fate of this or that specific person/soul but I can make general statements about idol worshiping or denying/deniers of the existence of God. Did you get that?

The qur'an showed us the way to gain Allah's love and pleasure and warned us from the ways that displease Him...but will Sahar or K.Venugopal go to heaven or hell? This thing is totally left to God since we don't know people's knowledge, what mingles inside their hearts/honesty/sincerity and circumstances and we have our vain desires that make us deviate from justice.

Of course you or I know very little. But Muslims particularly give the impression of authority by quoting the Quran and the Quran categorically says that idol worshipers will go to hell. As per the Quran I am doomed to hell. For Allah hates shirk most of all. But I am not sure of our Mullah in Kerala. He is building a gigantic mosque and he has declared it will house Mohammad's hair. Of course he is not going to admit that he is worshiping Mohammad's hair. He will only say its importance lies in it being a relic. He might fool us ignorant folks. But do you think he can fool Allah? This is all I asked.

 

[Sahar]

It is funny how even a sentence as straight forward as this involves specific understanding and interpretation. For example, if a Hindu said this, I would absolutely understand and agree. But for different reasons.

I do not understand the mainstream concept of Allah. He seems so different to my understanding of God.
When I contemplate my concept of God, I think of love and life. God is One- and in Hinduism, that means something different to in Islam. Oneness, in Vedic philosophy, is non different to Love. It is unity. God is One- God is Unity- we are all part of that unity. We are all bound to one another and love is the binding force.

So if a Hindu says that a moment of sincerity to God outweighs anything, it means that in that moment, we are surrendered to Love- to unity. As we come closer to realising the divine, our sense of love is expanded- our love is infinite.

To feel love, to express it through selfless acts, in non-different to experiencing God. There is nothing greater than to live in love.

Now when a person tells me that their idea of God contradicts this, it is difficult for me to 1) make sense of the idea and 2) feel good about it.
My experience of Love shapes how I see the world, how I see human behaviour. It makes perfect sense. It is what keeps my faith in something greater than this material existence. Exploring the idea that any kind of genuine love experienced and expressed is not spiritual and wonderful or that it is not so valuable because God does not approve if you aren't consciously aware of Him- it is so alien an idea, so perverse, so laughable.

You have mentioned again and again what we must do- what Allah demands of us. But you have not made me understand. Is there any way that you can help me to understand how this concept of Allah makes sense to anyone.

So there is no distinction between God and the universe/creation and we are all a part of God or everything is god and god is in all the things? Correct? And thus love is god, selflessness is god, life is god, etc.?
Are we originally divine or do we need to take some steps to be divine?

 

[K.Venugopal]

So there is no distinction between God and the universe/creation and we are all a part of God or everything is god and god is in all the things? Correct? And thus love is god, selflessness is god, life is god, etc.?
Are we originally divine or do we need to take some steps to be divine?

Distinctions may not be there per se but as our minds make them, depending on the level or depths of our consciousness. To get clarity on the issue we have to first define what we mean by God. The basic definition of God in Islam, if I am not wrong, is He is the Creator. Hinduism basically defines God as Totality (Brahman). So to the question whether we are God, the answer is obvious to most Hindus - of course we are part of the total, though we seem to be separate and limited to our body and therefore we are God. For the Muslims too the answer is obvious - of course we puny folks are not God because let alone the universe, we are unable to create even peanuts!

The more relevant question is, is the understanding of God by Hindus and Muslims different? I think there is no difference as far as the effect of God is concerned upon both the Hindu and Muslim - both are moved to immediate piety when God is invoked, each in its own way. It is like how we love our mothers. Both you and I love our mothers. While there may be difference between our mothers (in features etc.), there is no difference between our mothers as far as the love of motherhood is concerned, which is what is essential.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Are we originally divine or do we need to take some steps to be divine?

We are always divine, but are asleep to the fact. Hinduism, as many other religions, is about waking us up to this fact.

 

[Sahar]

Distinctions may not be there per se but as our minds make them, depending on the level or depths of our consciousness. To get clarity on the issue we have to first define what we mean by God. The basic definition of God in Islam, if I am not wrong, is He is the Creator. Hinduism basically defines God as Totality (Brahman). So to the question whether we are God, the answer is obvious to most Hindus - of course we are part of the total, though we seem to be separate and limited to our body and therefore we are God. For the Muslims too the answer is obvious - of course we puny folks are not God because let alone the universe, we are unable to create even peanuts!

What form this totality/god are the positive concepts, meanings, acts only or this includes the negative thoughts, meanings and acts too? Madhuri spoke about god as life and love. Can death and hate be god as well since they are a part of that totality? In other words, is there anything that is not divine?

We are always divine, but are asleep to the fact. Hinduism, as many other religions, is about waking us up to this fact.

How can this waking up be achieved according to Hinduism?
Why do we have to wake up, after all?

 

[K.Venugopal]

What form this totality/god are the positive concepts, meanings, acts only or this includes the negative thoughts, meanings and acts too? Madhuri spoke about god as life and love. Can death and hate be god as well since they are a part of that totality? In other words, is there anything that is not divine?

When you say totality it includes everything – positive and negative. We have to bear in mind the positive-negative division is not a fact in existence but only a conditioning of the human mind. The question whether everything is divine is a question that vexes only the human mind, which ranges from saying nothing is divine, something is divine and other things are not divine to saying everything is divine. These divisions are a creation of the mind. Hinduism and other religions teach that the tendency of the human mind to see divisively is a tendency it could and should be cured of. Otherwise humans would continue to suffer or their happiness would only be pyrrhic. So, to answer your question, there is nothing that is not divine.

How can this waking up be achieved according to Hinduism?

Hinduism exists only to facilitate man’s awakening. A awakened person would no longer require Hinduism, just as a man who awakes from sleep in the morning would not require an alarm clock (till he goes to sleep again!). There are many different paths, techniques and teachings in Hinduism to facilitate the awakening of man. Whatever the differences, the goal is the same – to come to an understanding of the truth of existence – its oneness. My personal technique is by reading/listening to the masters and profiting by it.

Why do we have to wake up, after all?

Because it is glorious to wake up to the truth. (Ultimately even the idea of having to wake up is an illusion because we are already the awakened ones. All these terms are a concession to us in our present state of duality.)

 

[Sahar]

Thank you for your replies. But I still have some questions, I hope you don't mind.

When you say totality it includes everything – positive and negative. We have to bear in mind the positive-negative division is not a fact in existence but only a conditioning of the human mind. The question whether everything is divine is a question that vexes only the human mind, which ranges from saying nothing is divine, something is divine and other things are not divine to saying everything is divine. These divisions are a creation of the mind. Hinduism and other religions teach that the tendency of the human mind to see divisively is a tendency it could and should be cured of. Otherwise humans would continue to suffer or their happiness would only be pyrrhic. So, to answer your question, there is nothing that is not divine.

So in essence, there is no division between good and evil, in other words there is no good and there is no evil and that distinction is an illusion?

Hinduism exists only to facilitate man’s awakening. A awakened person would no longer require Hinduism, just as a man who awakes from sleep in the morning would not require an alarm clock (till he goes to sleep again!). There are many different paths, techniques and teachings in Hinduism to facilitate the awakening of man. Whatever the differences, the goal is the same – to come to an understanding of the truth of existence – its oneness. My personal technique is by reading/listening to the masters and profiting by it.

Are you awakened? How do you know if you are awakened or not?
What if oneness is an illusion as well? Can't that division between the truth and illusion be an illusion too?

 

[Revoltingest]

Sahar:
As a non-believer, is it possible for me to be good?
How might I avoid eternal damnation if I continue to believe your god doesn't exist?

 

[K.Venugopal]

So in essence, there is no division between good and evil, in other words there is no good and there is no evil and that distinction is an illusion?

Yes, that distinction is an illusion for the awakened. But not for the masses of us who are caught up in the world of duality. Hinduism, as all other religions, addresses the man caught up in duality and therefore also speaks of good and evil.

Are you awakened? How do you know if you are awakened or not?

The stage of awakening is not a stage of knowledge or even experience for both knowledge and experience pertain to the world of duality. When we transcend the stage of duality, nothing truly matters and yet such a person may chose to retain, without attachment, his knowledge and experience of duality to help the suffering masses. That is why a Krishna or a Buddha lived appearing so caught up in the world of duality, though they were not and their only aim was to free those who wanted to be freed from the world of duality.

What if oneness is an illusion as well? Can't that division between the truth and illusion be an illusion too?

All divisions are an illusion. When there is oneness the illusion disappears. Calling oneness as illusion is kind of name calling from the dual level. In oneness, even names drop off.

Oneness or totality or God or life is formless. It takes on forms in illusion (the word is Maya in Sanskrit) and duality arises and in duality we consider the illusion a reality. The formless takes on forms as a sport (Leela in Sanskrit) and the game is a sort of hide-and-seek. The formless or God or oneness is hiding and we, the formed (created?), the dual, are seeking. The game is won when we discover the formless or discover ourselves when we move from the dual to the non-dual. Religions are, in this game, like referees. However, some referees, like Islam, never allow this game to be played to its logical end of self-discovery and the result is tired (stunted) players who continue to be in the illusion of separateness.

 

[Sahar]

Yes, that distinction is an illusion for the awakened. But not for the masses of us who are caught up in the world of duality. Hinduism, as all other religions, addresses the man caught up in duality and therefore also speaks of good and evil.

So in reality, good and evil are equal. Killing someone and saving another one's life are equal because eventually they belong to the divine unity. Feeling love and hate is an illusion.
So people doesn't have to do good because it's illusional. Good has no real meaning and is not desired in it itself because the divine reality is beyond good and evil.

Are followers of Hinduism encouraged to do good? If so, what's the point?

I wonder also how this view is reconciled with Madhuri's talk of love and life if both are illusions and the goal is to transcend beyond them.

The stage of awakening is not a stage of knowledge or even experience for both knowledge and experience pertain to the world of duality. When we transcend the stage of duality, nothing truly matters and yet such a person may chose to retain, without attachment, his knowledge and experience of duality to help the suffering masses. That is why a Krishna or a Buddha lived appearing so caught up in the world of duality, though they were not and their only aim was to free those who wanted to be freed from the world of duality.

Does the awakened person feel pain? If his hand touched an extremely hot object, would they react by removing it away from the hot object?

In oneness, even names drop off.

What if this same concept is an illusion? How can you possibly determine that "in oneness names drop off" is not an illusion?
Also, according to this, there is no point of calling it "the truth" or "the reality" because names drop off, right? And there is no point of an enlightened person to be enlightened in the first place because names drop off?

If human experience, logic and knowledge are illusional, how can any person determine oneness as the only truth?

Religions are, in this game, like referees. However, some referees, like Islam, never allow this game to be played to its logical end of self-discovery and the result is tired (stunted) players who continue to be in the illusion of separateness.

I thought "logical" has no place in your philosophy and its goal, since logic is an illusion.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Sahar,

You are yet to respond to my post no. 47 though you are on 57.
which repeat once again:

Friend Sahar,
Have asked this question many times but am yet to find a suitable response:
Is Allah the same as Brahman / God / Tao / etc??
Love & rgds

Unless you establish TRUTH as ONE for the whole of EXISTENCE and not only for humans who follow various paths/ways to merge with existence; it will be meaningless to discuss any thing with anyone.

Love & rgds

 

[K.Venugopal]

So in reality, good and evil are equal. Killing someone and saving another one's life are equal because eventually they belong to the divine unity. Feeling love and hate is an illusion.

Good and evil are equal, but for whom? Certainly not for us, who are living in the plane of duality. I suggest you, at least for the moment to bear with me, consider Allah as an enlightened being living in a non dual state. I think Allah has been described in the Quran as being above all dualities. Hate and love mean differently to us at the dual level. Do you think Allah is affected by the passions of love and the convulsions of hatred? You will get a clue about what Hindus mean when they talk about the non-dual state if you meditate on Allah or even the writings of some Sufis. Isn’t “killing” someone and saving or “giving life” to another something Allah does all the time?

So people doesn't have to do good because it's illusional. Good has no real meaning and is not desired in it itself because the divine reality is beyond good and evil.

If people don’t have to do good because it is an illusion, they don’t have to do evil either, do they? For us at the dual stage, good is preferable over evil for the simple reason that good will help us and evil will destroy us.

Are followers of Hinduism encouraged to do good? If so, what's the point?

Followers of Hinduism are encouraged to do good because they, like all human beings, are unable to live without doing something and if good is prohibited, they would end up doing evil. It is better to do good rather than evil not for God’s sake but for our own sake and for the sake of our fellow human beings.

I wonder also how this view is reconciled with Madhuri's talk of love and life if both are illusions and the goal is to transcend beyond them.

Madhuri has very naturally resolved that if we are going to talk at all, we might as well talk of doing good. And who needs that goodness from us? Certainly not God. Our fellow human beings need it – those who are still in the state of duality.

Does the awakened person feel pain? If his hand touched an extremely hot object, would they react by removing it away from the hot object?

If the awakened one is still embodied, he or she would certainly feel pain and pleasure.

What if this same concept is an illusion?

For the suffering or enjoying person, his suffering or enjoyment is not an illusion. It is an illusion only to those who have transcended duality. Just like the dream is a reality for the dreamer till he wakes up.

How can you possibly determine that "in oneness names drop off" is not an illusion?

The statement that “in oneness names drop off” is valid only at our dual level because we still have something to aspire to. In a state of oneness there is no “other” and hence where rises the question of names? Two questions would arise. (1) How do we know whether there is such a stage? (2) What happens when a person reaches such a stage? In answer I shall say (1) We have heard of such a stage because many have spoken about it. We may eventually get to know it when we experience it ourselves. (2) They say that when a person reaches a stage of non-duality, he voluntarily retains his body to help others. And if he decides to forgo his body (Samadhi in Sanskrit), he would merge with life in its totality.

Also, according to this, there is no point of calling it "the truth" or "the reality" because names drop off, right? And there is no point of an enlightened person to be enlightened in the first place because names drop off?

When names drop we have only the unlimited life or God. Why would God need words except for our sake? When the seeker seeks the Hidden One, words are clues for him to find the Hidden One.

If human experience, logic and knowledge are illusional, how can any person determine oneness as the only truth?

We can’t determine anything till we experience it. There are many who talk about oneness and we assume they are speaking the truth and it is not a state of illusion. We are invited to experience it ourselves.

I thought "logical" has no place in your philosophy and its goal, since logic is an illusion.

Logic is vital if we are to understand anything because logic simply means to see the connection between things and express it in language. It is an illusion only to the transcended ones.

 

[Koldaramor]

Friend Sahar,

You are yet to respond to my post no. 47 though you are on 57.
which repeat once again:


Unless you establish TRUTH as ONE for the whole of EXISTENCE and not only for humans who follow various paths/ways to merge with existence; it will be meaningless to discuss any thing with anyone.

Love & rgds

According to Islam. Brahman, Tao, god, etc, is not a "Allah”. With the Islamic faith, belief in Hinduizm origin, comes into conflict with each other. İslam is hinduizm beliefs in never accepts.


Copy Paste İnfo

• What are the Divine Attributes of the Being of Allah?
1. Al-Wujud : He is the Existing One,
2. Al-Qidam : He is the Pre-Eternal One,
3. Al-Baqah : He is the Everlasting One,
4. Al-Wahdaniyyah : He is the Unique One,
5. Al-Mukhalafatun lil Khawadith : He is Unlike the Created,
6. Al-Qiyam bi'nafsihi : He is the Self-Existing One.

• What are the Immutable Attributes of the Divine Essence of Allah?
1. Al-Hayat : Hei s the Living and Resurrecting One,
2. Al-Ilm : He is the All-Knowing One: Allah the Most High knows everything to such an extent that He even knows the secret intentions of the heart,
3. Al-Sami : He is the All-Hearing One: Allah the Most High hears eveything,
4. Al-Baseer : He is the All-Seeing One: Allah the Most High can see a black ant crawling on a black rock in the dark of night and He can hear the sound of its moving limbs,
5. Al-Iradhah: He has Absolute Will: Alalh the Most High has the quality of divine Determination so that He does whatever He wishes and in whatever manner He wishes,
6. Al-Qudrah : He is the Omnipotent, the Almighty One, and He has power over all things,
7. Al-Qalam : His manner of Speech is Unique to Him; Alalh the Most High spaeks without need of letters or souns,
8. Al-Taqwin : He is the Creator from nothing of all things and beings.