Will Allah Punish a Good Hindu?

[Sahar]

Thank you K.Venugopal for taking the time to reply to me, I really appreciate it.

But I have real problems with your view.

As I understand, Hinduism teaches that this world, our perception of it, our knowledge and experiences are illusions (Maya as you told me) and thus the goal should be transcending beyond this illusionary world.

What is really problematic that this also means that your knowledge and thinking about oneness is illusion as well. It means you can't experience that true stage because your experience is not real in the first place. Moreover, it means that we can't possibly know if the teachings of Hinduism are real or not, since our knowledge is not a reality. In a nutshell, we can't know if anything is true including oneness.

Secondly, if contradictions are really equal, then this also means that illusions and the truth are equal in oneness, i.e there is no truth. This basically means that it's meaningless to seek enlightenment and it's meaningless to teach Hinduism.

And you went in contradicting yourself and your Hindu views:
For example:

Two questions would arise. (1) How do we know whether there is such a stage? (2) What happens when a person reaches such a stage? In answer I shall say (1) We have heard of such a stage because many have spoken about it. We may eventually get to know it when we experience it ourselves.

1. Our knowledge is not real so we can't really know if there is such stage.
2. Our perception/experience of hearing about it is not real.
3. If our experiences are not real, how you can possibly know if there is that stage or better if you really experience such a stage.

In other words, how can you possibly determine the truth through illusions?

(2) They say that when a person reaches a stage of non-duality, he voluntarily retains his body to help others. And if he decides to forgo his body (Samadhi in Sanskrit), he would merge with life in its totality.

It's interesting that such person transcended beyond the illusionary world, yet he still find illusions meaningful (retain to help others). If such person was really enlightened, he would find helping others as not real and meaningless.

Followers of Hinduism are encouraged to do good because they, like all human beings, are unable to live without doing something and if good is prohibited, they would end up doing evil. It is better to do good rather than evil not for God’s sake but for our own sake and for the sake of our fellow human beings.

I thought Hinduism teaches that there is no distinction between God and human beings. All human beings are divine and God. And making such distinction is not real, and any evil or good is not real...why would the Hindu be encouraged to do anything that is not real? Do find any of this meaningful?

Madhuri has very naturally resolved that if we are going to talk at all, we might as well talk of doing good. And who needs that goodness from us? Certainly not God.

But everyone of us is god, no?
Let's review what Madhuri said:

To feel love, to express it through selfless acts, in non-different to experiencing God. There is nothing greater than to live in love.

I understood that experiencing god is by transcending beyond our illusionary feelings of love and selflessness. Correct me if I am wrong.

Just like the dream is a reality for the dreamer till he wakes up.

Except that everything will be different if the dreamer knew that he was dreaming. And this is our case, me and you both know that this world is an illusion...but at the end of the day, Hinduism says our knowledge is not real. How puzzling!!

I really find such views very illogical, problematic and full of inconsistencies and contradictions.

 

[Sahar]

In contrast, Islam is simple, logical and clear. Islam emphasizes human intellect, experience and knowledge and consider them the essential tools and basis to reach the path of God (they are not detached from the reality). In Islam, you reach enlightenment in this world...in our daily life.

God is one, indivisible and nothing is like Him. He is distinct from His creation. God is the Creator and can't be the creation at the same time. Allah has no beginning (nor end) but the creation has a beginning. Allah is not subjected to the laws of His creation, He is greater than this.
We are not divine and we will never be. The goal is never to realize we are divine or to even be divine. But the goal is to realize that all divinity belongs to Allah alone. All perfection belongs to Him alone. The divine can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time, can't be knowing and not knowing at the same time, alive and dead at the same time, even divine and undivine at the same time...etc.

If everything is God and God is everything...God and nature are one thing, in essence this tells me that there is no God.

We have our weakness but even with our weakness we can know God and love Him, and this what makes us, humans, different from any other creature.

Doing good and fighting evil are a fundamental part of our highest goal. And I find it extremely ridiculous and empty to claim that they are not real and any distinction between them is unreal.

And I can't accept any claim that disregard human intellect and knowledge. But through our intellect, free will and conscience, we judge if this path is the path of God or not, this distinguishes us from the rest of the creation.

I can't embrace Madhuri's view that doesn't have much regard to knowledge, conscious decisions and intentions. They determine everything.

In short, according to my humble understanding, I believe there is no similarity whatsoever between such pantheistic concepts of Hinduism and the basics of the Islamic view.

 

[Sahar]

Friend Sahar,

You are yet to respond to my post no. 47 though you are on 57.
which repeat once again:

Check post #62.

 

[Onkara]

In short, according to my humble understanding, I believe there is no similarity whatsoever between such pantheistic concepts of Hinduism and the basics of the Islamic view.

It isn't "Hinduism" it is the type of school/philosophy/sect in Hinduism.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Sahar,

Thank you for your response which you have summed up in one line:

I believe there is no similarity whatsoever between such pantheistic concepts of Hinduism and the basics of the Islamic view.

Well could you now discuss the root of the differences between the two as surely you would have read /understood/realized to speak thus.
For your information Saint Ramakrishna reached the state of samadhi by following various paths including islam and chistianity and could only state that all paths lead to the same state.
Await your response.
Love & rgds

 

[idav]

If everything is God and God is everything...God and nature are one thing, in essence this tells me that there is no God.

To me the aspect of oneness with everything would be the definition of god especially in regards omniscience and omnipresence. For humans to be children of god would be for those children to achieve this oneness as well. It isn't just a oneness with fellow humans but all of creation which would include everything.

I saw earlier in the thread you mentioned the fight between good and evil and it being important but when you are all knowing and all seeing I would imagine this would take on a very different meaning. IOW only god would know why there is good and evil but if god is loving and allows evil could it be that evil is just an illusion (an illusion for humans not god)? We see a fluctation of positive and negative energies and it is all a part of flow of things yet we somehow try to label it.

 

[Madhuri]

So there is no distinction between God and the universe/creation and we are all a part of God or everything is god and god is in all the things? Correct? And thus love is god, selflessness is god, life is god, etc.?
Are we originally divine or do we need to take some steps to be divine?

The philosophy of Achintya Bheda Abheda Tattva teaches that God and his creation are not separate. It means- Simultaneous Oneness and Difference. God's creation is a direct manifestation of His energy. His energy is not separate from Him. And yet, that creation cannot be said to actually be him. God is the Origin, the Whole, the All-Powerful (etc.). The known universe, and all of existence (which is infinite) is an expansion of His Self.

The concept of Brahman is God- as -Consciousness. Everything is made of this spirit; Consciousness. Thus God is aware of everything, as was described in your post above. Nothing is unknown to God, because everything is made of his own consciousness/awareness/intelligence. Similarly, as this Consciousness is all pervading, God is everywhere and in everything- literally.

Nothing in all of existence is separate. When we are free of material illusion, we become aware of this connection to all things. God is One. Even if we and this universe is only a manifestation of some part of God's energy, it is still part of the One binding Being that is God.

Oneness and Love are the same thing, on the most real level. This is distinguishing spiritual Love from material love, which is often illusory and temporary (attachments). When we experience real Love, it is as though the thing or person we love is a part of our very self. A mother's love is generally considered the most real love and reflects this perception of deep connection. As we come closer to God, this real Love expands. It is the same as realising our connection with all things- that we are part of everything and everything is a part of us. Just as a mother experiences that her child is a part of her being, though there is a distinction (like our very relationship with God).

So this is Love. We can come to realise God by expanding our Love and we come to Love by knowing God.

I hope that made sense.

As for the last question, all souls are divine. Nothing is not divine as nothing is separate from God (I will emphasise again here that being part of God -specifically one of his energies- is not the same as being one with/non different to). It is our state of ignorance (maya) that stops us from understanding this. And while we remain in ignorance, we are subject to the temporary pleasures and suffering that arise from our own ignorant actions.

The Veda prescribe methods for arising from this state of ignorance and truly knowing God and Self. It is when we reach that stage that we are liberated from this material cycle of birth and death.

 

[Madhuri]

I want to begin this by saying that I am not attempting to convince or convert anyone- I seek only understanding on both sides. I wish to understand the Islamic concepts and for you to understand with Vedic concepts. I also acknowledge that this may be more challenging for you as there are various schools within the Hindu umbrella- Hinduism is not one single religion, but few outside understand this.

In contrast, Islam is simple, logical and clear. Islam emphasizes human intellect, experience and knowledge and consider them the essential tools and basis to reach the path of God (they are not detached from the reality). In Islam, you reach enlightenment in this world...in our daily life.

What seems simple and logical to one person may not to another. This is why there are so many differing opinions on truth.
Intelligence, experience and knowledge are also considered essential tools and basis to reach God in Hinduism.

God is one, indivisible and nothing is like Him. He is distinct from His creation. God is the Creator and can't be the creation at the same time. Allah has no beginning (nor end) but the creation has a beginning. Allah is not subjected to the laws of His creation, He is greater than this.
We are not divine and we will never be. The goal is never to realize we are divine or to even be divine. But the goal is to realize that all divinity belongs to Allah alone. All perfection belongs to Him alone. The divine can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time, can't be knowing and not knowing at the same time, alive and dead at the same time, even divine and undivine at the same time...etc.

I agree with some and disagree with other parts. I agree that God is distinct from material creation. As I attempted to explain in the previous post, distinct and separate are two different concepts. Simultaneous Oneness and Difference. God is both the Creator and the Created, but even the Created is only a very small manifestation of a very specific variety of God's energies- it is the energy that brings manifestation. But God's energy is not separate from Himself. He does not throw His energy out and it never comes back, being completely cut off.
This energy and similarly this manifestation that we experience is expanded from God's very Self. There is no separation, but there is distinction.

A metaphor I like to use in order to understand that is my comparing the Sun and it's rays. The sun is symbolic of God and the rays of the sun are God's manifest creation.

Note: the material world had a beginning, but according to Veda, the souls (you and me) are eternal. Souls are spirit- the same essence as God. Spirit is eternal- no beginning and no end.

If everything is God and God is everything...God and nature are one thing, in essence this tells me that there is no God.

Of course there is a God. God and nature are not One. Nature is a manifestation of part of God's energy- which I suppose you call 'power'. Not separate, but certainly distinct. The concept of Oneness is indeed pantheistic, and there are many pantheists. I also sometimes think that if I were a pantheist, I would not bother much with the idea of God. But the philosophy I debate with you is panentheistic. It acknowledges God as Origin and Creator, as eternal and infinite Being. But it also acknowledges that dualism is an illusion, because dualism calls for separation.

We have our weakness but even with our weakness we can know God and love Him, and this what makes us, humans, different from any other creature.

Absolutely. But our weaknesses are resulted from our state of ignorance. Through attainment of knowledge and Realisation/Enlightenment, this 'weakness' is overcome.

Doing good and fighting evil are a fundamental part of our highest goal. And I find it extremely ridiculous and empty to claim that they are not real and any distinction between them is unreal.

The concept of evil is replaced (or perhaps the concept of evil later replaced) by the Vedic 'Ignorance'. I think that even Abrahamic religions understand that any 'evil' force is not existing before or without the will of God. In Veda, there is no such thing as evil, there is only ignorance. In our ignorance, we behave in a manner that may cause suffering to ourselves and others. As we emerge from our ignorance, we expand in love and our actions reflect only selflessness. So to put it simply, the concepts cross over as such: good = love/selflessness and evil = ignorance/selfishness.

This concept makes complete sense to me, so I cannot agree that it is ridiculous.

And I can't accept any claim that disregard human intellect and knowledge. But through our intellect, free will and conscience, we judge if this path is the path of God or not, this distinguishes us from the rest of the creation.

I can't embrace Madhuri's view that doesn't have much regard to knowledge, conscious decisions and intentions. They determine everything.

This seems to contradict something in your earlier post, which described Allah. It stated that nothing occurs without Allah's will. If a person does good or evil, it only happens because Allah wills it to happen. So if this is true, how can you then state that we have free will?

Having said that, my view does not at all disregard knowledge and intention. In fact, according to the laws of karma, intention has a very great influence. If we have good intention when doing something that results in harm, our karma will not be as bad as if the intention behind the consequence were also bad.

Also, knowledge is very, very important. Knowledge and Love of God (same thing, in the end) are the goal of life!

Please note that others do not necessarily reflect my understanding of scripture.

 

[Madhuri]

These are all excellent intelligent questions. I will attempt to answer from my particular understanding (which is based on a legitimate ancient philosophical understanding of Veda...btw )

So in reality, good and evil are equal. Killing someone and saving another one's life are equal because eventually they belong to the divine unity. Feeling love and hate is an illusion.
So people doesn't have to do good because it's illusional. Good has no real meaning and is not desired in it itself because the divine reality is beyond good and evil.

This is partly correct but also not quite right.
'Good' and 'evil' are neither equal nor unequal. Now that I have previously explained, I can state simply that what exists is 'love' and 'ignorance'. In otherwords, selfish acts and selfless acts. Selfishness occurs when we cannot see beyond ourselves. When we expand in love, we cannot help but empathise and understand the consequences of our actions and we care about minimising the suffering of others. This selflessness is what you call 'good'. The lack of love and ability to empathise is seflishness, which results from ignorance, not some rotting dark supernatural force within us called 'evil'.

Illusion does not mean 'not real'. Illusion is a misunderstanding of reality, it is ignorance or lack of knowledge/understanding.

So feeling love and hate is not illusion- it is very real. However, it the cause of our feeling love and hate that that is illusory- for when we have spiritual understanding/realisation, there is no longer and real cause for feeling hate. I will note, that i do not like to say that feeling love is an illusion without clarifying. Love and love are different- English language does not have different words to describe varieties of love. Love is the unity I spoke of earlier- it causes us to see the value in others and empathise. The lower case 'love' I use to describe temporary, unreal love that is linked with attachments or infatuation or strong liking. One variety of love is clearly superior to the other.

Experiencing Love is never an illusion- it is the most real thing. But 'love' is illusory through its temporary nature. Again, this does not mean unreal or delusional.

Are followers of Hinduism encouraged to do good? If so, what's the point?

Yes, we are encouraged to do good. Specifically, we are instructed to expand our knowledge and our love and one way of doing this is to try to see God is all living things. If we can come to understand our equality with any living entity, even if we are not yet able to expand our love, we can consciously acknowledge the value and feelings of that living entity and consciously attempt to minimise our harm to it.

The point of doing good is for our own benefit and the benefit of the intricate connection between all things to the extent that any action will have consequences to all things, whether we perceive it or not. Nobody really likes to suffer and at the core, we all seek love and acceptance as part of something- a community, God etc. It is our nature. So our religion teaches us how to go about being happy and connecting with the Whole of existence.

I wonder also how this view is reconciled with Madhuri's talk of love and life if both are illusions and the goal is to transcend beyond them.

So then I do not know if others here necessarily agree with me, but this is how my talk of love and life relate to my understanding of Veda. For love and life are not illusion- they are the most real. What we seek to transcend is illusion, or the false perception that we are not in this very moment connected with the Divine.

Does the awakened person feel pain? If his hand touched an extremely hot object, would they react by removing it away from the hot object?

Yes, as long as an individual is within the material body, we are subject to it. What changes is our consciousness. We are no longer 'asleep' or in illusion. So nothing in this world can bother us.

If human experience, logic and knowledge are illusional, how can any person determine oneness as the only truth?

I thought "logical" has no place in your philosophy and its goal, since logic is an illusion.

I do not actually think that Vedic scripture teach this idea. I personally consider the Bhagavad Gita to the be essential scripture. Here is a quote:

"Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed." 2.63

Logic can be illusory. But that comes from lack of knowledge also. The logical pathway one follows is based on the information and experience he/she has had. A group of people may therefore come to different conclusions based on the same information presented to them. How then can we say that reason always finds truth? Our logical conclusions and metal speculation can result in many misunderstanding and wrong conclusions, thus = illusion. However, neither you nor I or our scriptures actually say that we must drop the use of reason, because it is also very important. But even more important is the acquisition of knowledge because without knowledge, our reasoning is not worth much.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Thank you K.Venugopal for taking the time to reply to me, I really appreciate it. But I have real problems with your view. As I understand, Hinduism teaches that this world, our perception of it, our knowledge and experiences are illusions (Maya as you told me) and thus the goal should be transcending beyond this illusionary world.

Illusions to the awakened ones but not to those actually experiencing it.

What is really problematic that this also means that your knowledge and thinking about oneness is illusion as well. It means you can't experience that true stage because your experience is not real in the first place. Moreover, it means that we can't possibly know if the teachings of Hinduism are real or not, since our knowledge is not a reality. In a nutshell, we can't know if anything is true including oneness.

Our knowledge of oneness would remain an illusion if it remains as mere knowledge (information) without “experience”. The experience of everything else is ephemeral, that is, it does not last because the separation between the thing experienced and the experiencer resurfaces and the experience itself becomes a thing of memory. But in the experience of oneness, the experiencer, the thing experienced and the experience ceases to be a separate entities. That state of oneness is best described as being God. So the aim of man is to become God. And being God, we would know that we were always God and we seemed to be unaware of this only when we were in the grip of an illusion (Maya) of our own making!

Secondly, if contradictions are really equal, then this also means that illusions and the truth are equal in oneness, i.e there is no truth. This basically means that it's meaningless to seek enlightenment and it's meaningless to teach Hinduism.

To the enlightened person, contradictions do not exist – not that they exist and are on equal footing. If anyone says contradictions exist and they are equal, he is truly an indifferent person, not an enlightened person. Hinduism says that contradictions exist for those not yet enlightened and Hindu teachings first attempt to move man away from saying that evil is better than good or saying evil and good are the same to saying that good is better than evil. Only when a person says good is better than evil would that person be ready to evolve to transcending both good and evil. Hinduism then offers its higher level of teachings to that person.

And you went in contradicting yourself and your Hindu views:
For example: 1. Our knowledge is not real so we can't really know if there is such stage.

Our knowledge may not be real but nowhere have I said we do not have the capacity to know. We have the capacity to know what is illusionary and what is real. But for that we have to awaken or be awakened.

2. Our perception/experience of hearing about it is not real.

It would not be real for us until we set about the journey. Mere hearsay is not good enough.

3. If our experiences are not real, how you can possibly know if there is that stage or better if you really experience such a stage.

Experiences are always real so long as there is separation from that which is experienced. Only, the experience-in-separation is not a lasting experience and is a partial one. When we reach the stage where there is no separation between the experiener and the experienced, then we have a state of Godhood, where all “experiences” are wholesome.

In other words, how can you possibly determine the truth through illusions?

A person in illusion cannot determine the truth. That is why Hinduism teaches man to snap out of the illusion.

It's interesting that such person transcended beyond the illusionary world, yet he still find illusions meaningful (retain to help others). If such person was really enlightened, he would find helping others as not real and meaningless.

A transcended person does not find any use in illusions but as the non-transcended lives in illusions, he is prepared to help such people who find they are ready to snap out of their illusions because they are living disillusioned lives.

I thought Hinduism teaches that there is no distinction between God and human beings. All human beings are divine and God. And making such distinction is not real, and any evil or good is not real...why would the Hindu be encouraged to do anything that is not real? Do find any of this meaningful?

Hinduism does not teach anyone to do anything not real (that is, to live in the illusionary world). Hinduism teaches us to awaken from our illusionary world of contradictions. All differences are an illusion but those caught up in it do not realise it and therefore they suffer (though they may appear to be enjoying and may even claim to be enjoying). The solution is not to move away from suffering to enjoyment that are both illusionary, because they do not last and are partial, but to transcend both suffering and enjoyment to the state of lasting wholesomeness or being God.

But everyone of us is god, no? Let's review what Madhuri said:
To feel love, to express it through selfless acts, in non-different to experiencing God. There is nothing greater than to live in love.

Love and its expressions are indeed divine. To live in love, not momentarily but eternally. This is the goal. This is achieved when the illusion of separation is dissolved.

I understood that experiencing god is by transcending beyond our illusionary feelings of love and selflessness. Correct me if I am wrong.

You are right.

Except that everything will be different if the dreamer knew that he was dreaming. And this is our case, me and you both know that this world is an illusion...but at the end of the day, Hinduism says our knowledge is not real. How puzzling!!

Hinduism says our knowledge is not real because it comes from a divided mind, where the mind accepts what it likes and rejects what it does not like and in the process the mind becomes a battlefield of likes and dislikes. Such a mind would be incapable of knowing the truth. So Hinduism shows the way to a wholesome and undivided mind. Only such a mind or understanding can awaken us from our illusions. Islam, if I may so so, does not awaken us from any illusions. In fact, it promises and warns us of more illusions in the form of heaven and hell – the ultimate and eternal duality.

 

[K.Venugopal]

In contrast, Islam is simple, logical and clear. Islam emphasizes human intellect, experience and knowledge and consider them the essential tools and basis to reach the path of God (they are not detached from the reality). In Islam, you reach enlightenment in this world...in our daily life.

Dear Sahar, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I would have said the same thing – except, I would have used the word “Hinduism” instead of “Islam”. There is no contradiction here with what Hinduism teaches. Only, Hinduism goes further. Hinduism says, unlike Islam, when you reach enlightenment in this world there would be no sense of separation from God and you would become one with God. Islam says we can never be one with God. Hinduism emphasis that being one with God is the very aim of our existence. At this point it may be said that I am only indulging in semantics. I disagree. The question whether we can become one with God is crucial. The God that Hinduism talks about, at its deeper levels of teaching, is none other than what we essentially are. Hinduism teaches something of great potency - the essential nature of what we are. It says that we are not the limited body. Hinduism says we are the imperishable truth, totality and essence. Hinduism contains not a mere statement of this truth, but also ways and means to achieve this state of oneness with existence. This teaching that moves us from duality to non-duality removes two of the greatest and most persistent problems of man – fear and desire. Fear and desire occur to us only when there is the other. When the other is discovered not to exist separate from us, fear and desire dissolves and we live in this world like God (not the God depicted by some where God is all powerful against the other, but God who is in oneness with the “other”).

God is one, indivisible and nothing is like Him. He is distinct from His creation. God is the Creator and can't be the creation at the same time. Allah has no beginning (nor end) but the creation has a beginning. Allah is not subjected to the laws of His creation, He is greater than this.

Islam separates the creator and His creation. Hinduism does not separate the creator and His creation. That the separation is an illusion would be clear if we realise that God is nothing other than life. What is life? Life is that which enlivens us. Call it God, call it energy, call it consciousness – maybe none of these terms can be proved. But is there any need of proof that we are alive, that we have life? Life is indivisible. Quran has made a mistake when it said that Allah created life. Because it would mean that Allah was dead before life was created, which is a logical absurdity. I have pointed out this error in the Quran many times and the Muslim response is that the life in Allah is different from the life in man. I simply say life is indivisible and rest my case.

We are not divine and we will never be. The goal is never to realize we are divine or to even be divine. But the goal is to realize that all divinity belongs to Allah alone. All perfection belongs to Him alone. The divine can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time, can't be knowing and not knowing at the same time, alive and dead at the same time, even divine and undivine at the same time...etc.

The concept of illusion (Maya) does not exist in any religion except Hinduism. Therefore it is not expected that anyone who takes his religious understanding solely on the dualistic religions (which do not accept that the separation is only an illusion) to understand that it is not enough to believe in God but we have also to realise Him – to be one with Him. When it is said that duality is an illusion, it is a teaching that prompts us to discover our oneness with existence or life or God. But for God, who is the spinner of this illusion, it is simply a hide-and-seek game He plays all by Himself – a la solitaire.

If everything is God and God is everything...God and nature are one thing, in essence this tells me that there is no God.

Everything is one. Oneness alone exists. Oneness is existence and existence is oneness. God is not separate, God cannot cause separation. He can cause only the illusion of separation and through Hinduism He teaches us how to come out of that illusion and discover ourselves to be Him. The game God plays! A game of joy and celebration. (Krishna Leela.)

We have our weakness but even with our weakness we can know God and love Him, and this what makes us, humans, different from any other creature.

Of course we can know God and love Him. But which lover would not want to become one with his or her beloved?

Doing good and fighting evil are a fundamental part of our highest goal. And I find it extremely ridiculous and empty to claim that they are not real and any distinction between them is unreal.

What if we have fought evil and destroyed evil? Then would there be evil? If there is no evil, would there be “good”? Are not the good and evil we talk about contradictions of each other? When one ends, does the other remain in contradiction? In non-duality, do names and forms matter? Call the non-dual state anything, but you still have non-duality. It is significant that Hinduism does not call such a state anything – it simply says that such a state is non-dual (Advaita = not two).

And I can't accept any claim that disregard human intellect and knowledge. But through our intellect, free will and conscience, we judge if this path is the path of God or not, this distinguishes us from the rest of the creation.

I fully agree with you.

I can't embrace Madhuri's view that doesn't have much regard to knowledge, conscious decisions and intentions. They determine everything.

I am sure Madhuri will answer you on this.

In short, according to my humble understanding, I believe there is no similarity whatsoever between such pantheistic c oncepts of Hinduism and the basics of the Islamic view.

Hinduism continues where Islam stops.

 

[Father Heathen]

Pish posh....a good deed is a good deed, even if one denies all the gods.
It seems unreasonable that our ignorance causes punishment in an afterlife.

A god who values the gratification of his own ego above whether or not an individual has honor, honesty, compassion or integrity is a pretty pitiful deity.

 

[Starsoul]

I could say the same , a person who gratifies his own limited sense of intellect and ego as the ultimate authority of his own existence, while justifying to come out of nothing, is not only pitiful, but sad, arrogant and quite pointless.

 

[islam abduallah]

I am sorry, I hope Storm doesn't mind me creating a topic off of the one on one debate she is having with Islam Abdullah. I noticed that she gave a statement that he half answered and half ignored:



Abdullah clarified that bad Muslims will be punished, but said nothing about good Hindus. So I'm just curious, will god punish a good Hindu just because they were a Hindu?

Thoughts?

don't you see post# 9?

 

[Father Heathen]

I could say the same , a person who gratifies his own limited sense of intellect and ego as the ultimate authority of his own existence, while justifying to come out of nothing, is not only pitiful, but sad, arrogant and quite pointless.

That's not even remotely close to the same, and coming to logical conclusions based on available evidence has nothing to do with ego gratification. If anything is arrogant and ego driven, it's believing that a particular brand of unsubstantiated superstitions are absolute truth.

 

[Revoltingest]

I could say the same , a person who gratifies his own limited sense of intellect and ego as the ultimate authority of his own existence, while justifying to come out of nothing, is not only pitiful, but sad, arrogant and quite pointless.

For a human to have such low traits is no problem. I'm comfortable with mine.
But for a supreme being, a god, to be so petty, shallow, mean & arrogant is a big problem.

 

[Starsoul]

For a human to have such low traits is no problem. I'm comfortable with mine.
But for a supreme being, a god, to be so petty, shallow, mean & arrogant is a big problem.

? First we thought there was no God, now we actually do have a God in athiest terms( in an athiestic imagination, where they punch all their meanness at him) and who is supposed to be shallow mean and arrogant? can you please clarify what you are trying to say here?

I dont know, but that probably sounds like your small imagination of God, not mine ( petty imagination isn't it ?petty just like oneself, if you can agree with men being mean, and be ok with it, and yet be disappointed to know that God is mean, then im sorry you're probably warming your fists up against the wrong god, or to something which isn't even a god, just an evil spirit of your own imagination, 'cause if you're disappointed that God is mean, MEANS that you know deep inside that God really isn't supposed to be mean if he is supposed to be God and thats what I think too, the only difference is that I'm broad minded enough to be convinced of His Kindness , and you are narrow minded enough to hold on to a mean imagination of god, inspite of knowing what he should be like; all your choice.)

The God of my imagination is Beautiful beyond imagination, Kind beyond anyone's sense of kindness can ever reach, and forgiving beyond the reach the reach of crime. I'm sorry if you know a God who's mean, but cant say much 'cause looks like thats what you asked for.

 

[islam means peace]

I am sorry, I hope Storm doesn't mind me creating a topic off of the one on one debate she is having with Islam Abdullah. I noticed that she gave a statement that he half answered and half ignored:



Abdullah clarified that bad Muslims will be punished, but said nothing about good Hindus. So I'm just curious, will god punish a good Hindu just because they were a Hindu?

Thoughts?

Well, We cannot know what in person heart so I wont comment on your question in that sense. but one thing which is clearly mentioned in Quran that Allah will never forgive Shirk (associating partners to Allah)if person does not ask forgiveness and leave that in that world , and what we normally get idea by seing a comman hindu that they worship idols,stones even some animal trees too (that what the idea i got , an hindu can make correction if i am wrong) but I also read once in Islamic Research Foundation - Welcome to IRF that Hidus books also emphasise on believing and praying only and only one true GOD.

So, what I can say you must have to define your terms a good hidu? what do you mean by good hidu?

 

[Revoltingest]

? First we thought there was no God, now we actually do have a God in athiest terms( in an athiestic imagination, where they punch all their meanness at him) and who is supposed to be shallow mean and arrogant? can you please clarify what you are trying to say here?

Of course, I don't believe in gods, but I may consider the qualities of gods invented by others.
Some appear good, & others appear malevolent. Malevolence in a person is hard enuf to cope
with, but in a god it would have much more widespread evil consequences.

I dont know, but that probably sounds like your small imagination of God, not mine ( petty imagination isn't it ?petty just like oneself, if you can agree with men being mean, and be ok with it, and yet be disappointed to know that God is mean, then im sorry you're probably warming your fists up against the wrong god, or to something which isn't even a god, just an evil spirit of your own imagination, 'cause if you're disappointed that God is mean, MEANS that you know deep inside that God really isn't supposed to be mean if he is supposed to be God and thats what I think too, the only difference is that I'm broad minded enough to be convinced of His Kindness , and you are narrow minded enough to hold on to a mean imagination of god, inspite of knowing what he should be like; all your choice.)

Meh....just observing & judging the gods others create.

The God of my imagination is Beautiful beyond imagination, Kind beyond anyone's sense of kindness can ever reach, and forgiving beyond the reach the reach of crime. I'm sorry if you know a God who's mean, but cant say much 'cause looks like thats what you asked for.

Asking for? Why would I do that?

 

[K.Venugopal]

...one thing which is clearly mentioned in Quran that Allah will never forgive Shirk (associating partners to Allah)if person does not ask forgiveness and leave that in that world , and what we normally get idea by seing a comman hindu that they worship idols,stones even some animal trees too...

Allah can't stand anyone worshiping idols. But what about Muslims worshiping the hair of Mohammad? (Please see my post no. 40.). Muslims may try to get away by saying they do not worship the hair but only keep it as a relic. It appears that Muslims venerating a relic which they know is only a human hair is OK in the eyes of Allah but Hindus worshiping an idol which they believe represents God is punishable to eternal hellfire by Allah. Allah has an erratic scale of justice.

...I also read once that Hidus books also emphasise on believing and praying only and only one true GOD.

Muslims are unable to go beyond the Only-One-God concept of the Quran and people like Dr. Zakir Naik even reads that concept into the Vedas. Unlike the Quran, the Vedas do not reduce God to a countable object. Quran advocates the destruction of all idols except the idol of Allah. Veda advocates the transcending of all idols by transcending dualities.