"Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."
I fully agree.
I don't believe in the literalistic interpretations of Christian mythology, anyway. But if hell is what I get as a result, fine. Better than what those literal interpretations have.
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Will Atheists & Polyheists burn in Hell according to Bible?
- Thread starter Servant_of_the_One1
- Start date
"Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."
I fully agree.
I don't believe in the literalistic interpretations of Christian mythology, anyway. But if hell is what I get as a result, fine. Better than what those literal interpretations have.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Matt 10:28 is not speaking about the duality of man. It is speaking about man's life as a soul. Death does not mean that the soul (the whole person) cannot live again. Resurrection, as taught in the Bible is God's ability to restore life. All the resurrections that were performed in the Bible were a restoration of the life that person had before...in the flesh. If those people were spirits in heaven, why would they have been extracted from that blissful place, back to a hard life on earth, only to die again? Where was Jesus' friend Lazarus before Jesus raised him up? Where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14) What hope did Lazarus' sister hold out for him? (John 11:23, 24)
What Jesus said was that we need not fear man who can only take our present life....we should be in fear of the one who may destroy that soul by not restoring their life in the resurrection...leaving the wicked in eternal death.
You miss the point. It wasn't the Jews who invented the concept of the mortal soul. This is what was taught in their scriptures.....the ones provided by their God. This has nothing to do with their disobedience to God's laws. Belief in an immortal part of man that separates from the body at death is not biblical. The Jews never believed they had a separate part of themselves that separated from the body at death. Even before the nation formed and received God's laws, they still believed in the mortality of the soul. Even the suffering Job referred to the resurrection. Sheol was the grave.
Job 14:13-15...“I wish you would hide me in Sh’ol, conceal me until your anger has passed, then fix a time and remember me! If a man dies, will he live again? I will wait all the days of my life for my change to come. You will call, and I will answer you; you will long to see what you made again." (Job 14:13-15 CJB) Job wasn't talking about being a spirit in heaven...he was talking about being restored to human life on earth. This is what Jews believed.
I have already addressed this...the "everlasting punishment" is nothing more than everlasting death. There is no immortal soul, so staying dead is punishment enough. Why make the Creator into a fiend who enjoys torturing the wicked? He has no need of them, so he simply does not restore their life.
The "unquenchable fire" is "Gehenna" not Sheol or its Greek equivalent, "hades".
Gehenna was used in the scriptures to denote everlasting death. Fire destroys.....just as Jesus said. The Jews understood the symbolism of "Gehenna". It isn't Christendom's "hell".
Can you see from the context in Matt 13, when this takes place? "The end of the age" is when the gathering of the lawless ones takes place. Like the parable of the "sheep and the goats"...the goats are consigned to the place "reserved for the devil and his angels"....."the lake of fire". (Matt 25:31-33, 41; Rev 20:7-10) This too is a symbolic place.....fire destroys...it does not "torment" in the sense that many want to think it does. This place is called "the second death"...why? Because, unlike the first death, no one comes back from this place.
The word "torment" was associated with jailers who continually tormented their prisoners. The torment spoken about could well mean the torment of ones who realize that they will forever remain imprisoned in death.
When a man is on death row, when does the weeping and gnashing of his teeth take place? Before or after the sentence is carried out? You can't torture a dead person. Death IS the punishment. Knowing that death will end their lives permanently, would torment anyone. The wicked will know at the judgment that this will be their fate. Even those who consider themselves to be good Christians will not be spared from this ultimate rejection. (Matt 7:21-23)
Solomon's commentary on the futility of life in a world of trouble is as true today as it was back then.
So those who "fear God and keep his commandments" will fare well. Those who practice what is bad, knowing full well that this is condemned in God's word, will pay the penalty. Since God is the judge, no one will 'get away with' anything.
God's justice is perfect.
Ironically, Solomon himself fell victim to disobeying his own words. He died as a disobedient sinner. Disobeying his God, he allowed the beauty of women to undo his resolve to continue to obey the God who gave him his wisdom. He married many foreign women who worshipped false gods and these in time, undermined his faith.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable......not a real scenario. Heaven and hell would hardly be within view and speaking distance to each other. A drop of water on the finger of a man could hardly quench another's thirst in a fire. Jesus was speaking about the Pharisees and the poor "lost sheep of the house of Israel" who swapped places when the "beggars" accepted the Messiah but the Pharisees didn't. Their torment was in Jesus' exposing them for the hypocrites they were pretending not to be.
Paul's words in 2 Cor 5:6 indicate the condition that all anointed Christians looked forward to. Those with the "heavenly calling" will all rule with Christ in heaven as "kings and priests" (Heb 3:1; Rev 20:6) Since John said that the kingdom will rule mankind, it is apparent that not all can go to heaven. Over whom do the "joint-heirs" of Jesus rule? For whom do they act as priests? Those who go to heaven are made perfect, leaving their sinful bodies behind in the grave. Kings do not rule each other and priests need sinner for whom to perform their priestly duties. So who is it that these ones rule?
When does this take place? Who is it that have been "sleeping" up until the last trumpet sounds? That is when the heavenly resurrection takes place. It is "the first resurrection".
In the preceding verses in 1 Cor 15, Paul says....(verses 20-23)..."But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming" (NASB)
What is the timeframe for this resurrection to take place? When does Christ "come" to take his disciples "home"?
Christ was the "firstfruits" of those who slept in death. Apart from fleshly resurrections, the Bible speaks about Jesus being the only one who was raised to life "in the spirit" up to that time.
Paul says that those who are part of the "first resurrection" do not experience their resurrection until his 'coming'. That those "sleeping in death" who are of the "chosen ones", (elect) will rise "first". Thereafter, those with the heavenly calling do not need to "sleep" but are instantly transformed when death occurs. (1 Thess 4:13-17)
By accepting that humans have an immortal soul, you negate the whole teaching about the resurrection.
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Thana
Lady
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Good lord, all you do is go around calling everyone arrogant for having an opinion. Isn't that rather arrogant? If it's not clear, consider this a personal attack, my dear.And that, my dear, would be arrogance aswell
Thana
Lady
Of course I don't. But asserting you're more rational than every Theist ever is what I would, appropriately, call arrogance.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
That would make sense provided that those literal interpretations are correct....but what a shame it would be to condemn something that is based on a wrong premise to begin with. Not all who profess to be Christians, actually are....only in their own definition, which at the end of the day, could be completely in error. (Matt 7:21-23)
People who believe in Hell will experience Hell.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
My dearest darling; I said it could be called rational..you said that would be arrogant as well! Either my words are correct or they are incorrect!
Your statement that my claim is arrogant is IGNORANT!
Well, I think the very idea that there can be one that's "in error" is itself an error, but that's just me. You're all Christians, far as I'm concerned. That's great; it's a fine religion with fantastic artwork, good stories, and enough variety to reach multiple people.
If that's "in error", it's going to take a lot more than stuff in the Bible to demonstrate it.
Yes, I have read it, in several versions and/or translations and also in the original Greek and Hebrew. Have you done that?
Well, you need not read too much into that statement. But when the OP says the following as the premise for his argument ---
“…the bible says that disbelievers from muslims, atheists and polytheists will be roasted in hell?”
--- then I feel qualified to make my charge. What he says is harmful and far from true. Which is precisely why Jesus Christ established One true Church to be the authority on earth to rule and guide and interpret Scripture for the masses. Otherwise, we have chaos, confusion and deadly deceptions.
Fast forward 50 years to the Lake Of Fire's waiting room....
Pudding
Well-Known Member
Which sect of church is the One true Church?
Do you believe that anyone will be required to spend eternity in the presence of (and worshiping) a spiritual being (God) that they do not know, do not love, and do not desire to be with?
If not, then they must be somewhere else (or cease to exist).
What benefit is gained from arguing the details on 'somewhere else' (or cease to exist)?
Pudding
Well-Known Member
Why do you ask jewish and christian this question?
Jewish's version of bible is only for jewish; christian's version of bible is only for christian.
Their version of bible is not for muslim.
Their version of bible is different from muslim's version of bible.
Their interpretation of their version of bible is different than the muslim's interpretation of muslim's version of bible.
Not to mention the difference between each others' version of bible and its contents and the many different version of translation of it, and some have this scripture, others don't have, some others strip it; some think their interpretation is correct, others don't agree and think theirs should be correct, many disagreement between each other.
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shawn001
Well-Known Member
A Zoroastrian is an adherent to Zoroastrianism, the first monotheistic religion, that is based on the teachings and philosophies of Zoroaster.
Zoroastrianism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra - Persian). The term Zoroastrianism is, in general usage, essentially synonymous with Mazdaism, i.e. the worship of Ahura Mazda, exalted by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) as the supreme divine authority. Along with Hinduism, Zoroastrianism is considered to be among the oldest religions in the world.
Zoroastrianism is the ancient, pre-Islamic religion of Persia (modern Iran). It survives there in isolated areas but more prosperously in India, where the descendants of Zoroastrian Persian immigrants are known as Parsis, or Parsees. In India the religion is called Parsiism.
Founded by the Iranian prophet and reformer Zoroaster in the 6th century BC, Zoroastrianism contains both monotheistic and dualistic features. Its concepts of one God, judgment, heaven and hell likely influenced the major Western religons of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Date founded: c.6th cent. BC Place founded:Ancient Persia Founder: Zarathustra (Zoroaster)
Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) was a Persian prophet who at the age of 30 believed he had seen visions of God, whom he called Ahura Mazda, the creator of all that is good and who alone is worthy of worship. This was a departure from previous Indo-Persian polytheism, and Zarathustra has been termed the first non-biblical monotheist. There is disagreement among scholars as to exactly when and where Zarathustra lived, but most agree that he lived in eastern Iran around the sixth century BC.
Beliefs
The Zoroastrian concept of God incorporates both monotheism and dualism. In his visions, Zarathustra was taken up to heaven, where Ahura Mazda revealed that he had an opponent, Aura Mainyu, the spirit and promoter of evil. Ahura Mazda charged Zarathustra with the task of inviting all human beings to choose between him (good) and Aura Mainyu (evil).
Though Zoroastrianism was never as aggressively monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples.
Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. Good and Evil fight an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. God's omnipotence is thus only temporarily limited.
Zoroaster taught that man must enlist in this cosmic struggle because of his capacity of free choice. Thus Zoroastrianism is a highly ethical religion in which the choice of good over evil has almost cosmic importance. Zarathustra taught that humans are free to choose between right and wrong, truth and lie, and light and dark, and that their choices would affect their eternity destiny.
The Zoroastrian afterlife is determined by the balance of the good and evil deeds, words, and thoughts of the whole life. For those whose good deeds outweight the bad, heaven awaits. Those who did more evil than good go to hell (which has several levels corresponding to degrees of wickedness). There is an intermediate stage for those whose deeds weight out equally.
Zoroaster invoked saviors who, like the dawns of new days, would come to the world. He hoped himself to be one of them. After his death, the belief in coming saviors developed. He also incorporated belief in angels and demons.
Zoroaster's ideas of ethical monotheism, heaven, hell, angelology, the resurrection of the body, and the messiah figure were influential on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though to what extent is not known for certain.
Zoroastrianism - ReligionFacts
Zoroastrianism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra - Persian). The term Zoroastrianism is, in general usage, essentially synonymous with Mazdaism, i.e. the worship of Ahura Mazda, exalted by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) as the supreme divine authority. Along with Hinduism, Zoroastrianism is considered to be among the oldest religions in the world.
Zoroastrianism is the ancient, pre-Islamic religion of Persia (modern Iran). It survives there in isolated areas but more prosperously in India, where the descendants of Zoroastrian Persian immigrants are known as Parsis, or Parsees. In India the religion is called Parsiism.
Founded by the Iranian prophet and reformer Zoroaster in the 6th century BC, Zoroastrianism contains both monotheistic and dualistic features. Its concepts of one God, judgment, heaven and hell likely influenced the major Western religons of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Date founded: c.6th cent. BC Place founded:Ancient Persia Founder: Zarathustra (Zoroaster)
Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) was a Persian prophet who at the age of 30 believed he had seen visions of God, whom he called Ahura Mazda, the creator of all that is good and who alone is worthy of worship. This was a departure from previous Indo-Persian polytheism, and Zarathustra has been termed the first non-biblical monotheist. There is disagreement among scholars as to exactly when and where Zarathustra lived, but most agree that he lived in eastern Iran around the sixth century BC.
Beliefs
The Zoroastrian concept of God incorporates both monotheism and dualism. In his visions, Zarathustra was taken up to heaven, where Ahura Mazda revealed that he had an opponent, Aura Mainyu, the spirit and promoter of evil. Ahura Mazda charged Zarathustra with the task of inviting all human beings to choose between him (good) and Aura Mainyu (evil).
Though Zoroastrianism was never as aggressively monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples.
Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. Good and Evil fight an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. God's omnipotence is thus only temporarily limited.
Zoroaster taught that man must enlist in this cosmic struggle because of his capacity of free choice. Thus Zoroastrianism is a highly ethical religion in which the choice of good over evil has almost cosmic importance. Zarathustra taught that humans are free to choose between right and wrong, truth and lie, and light and dark, and that their choices would affect their eternity destiny.
The Zoroastrian afterlife is determined by the balance of the good and evil deeds, words, and thoughts of the whole life. For those whose good deeds outweight the bad, heaven awaits. Those who did more evil than good go to hell (which has several levels corresponding to degrees of wickedness). There is an intermediate stage for those whose deeds weight out equally.
Zoroaster invoked saviors who, like the dawns of new days, would come to the world. He hoped himself to be one of them. After his death, the belief in coming saviors developed. He also incorporated belief in angels and demons.
Zoroaster's ideas of ethical monotheism, heaven, hell, angelology, the resurrection of the body, and the messiah figure were influential on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though to what extent is not known for certain.
Zoroastrianism - ReligionFacts
That seems a tad harsh. Belief in any religiously inspired book or ideas is based solely on matters of faith. One can believe whatever they like from the reading of those books. I personally like the teachings from the sermon on the mount but in no way do I believe in the tenets of Christianity. I am curious why you are being so angry here.
Very true, about transition of ancient texts. The meanings then could be vastly different from what we know now. Also some words simply have no accurate translation to our modern languages. IE: le reve means dram in French but is also used to mean daydreaming , etc. and French is fairly easy in terms of translation.
That's a really good point in that many people merely read the Bible and don't get into the deeper meaning contained therein. Most of the stories and anecdotes were never meant to be taken in the literal sense but rather were always meant to be allegorical. This is particularly true of the Tanakh or OT. And just as true of the NT.
I don't agree. I think it was meant to be a state of mind rather than a literal place where someone fries for eternity. Your analogy of the criminal is apt but I wonder, have you ever worked in a maximum security prison? I have. I can think of no place more like hell than that. Men there are murdered, raped, beaten and then they still have the endless hours of thinking about what it was they did to get the, there in the first place. Perhaps this is what was meant rather than the allegorical hell created by Milton and Dante?