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Woke

Nimos

Well-Known Member
That’s called capitalism.
Corporations have agendas they want their creators to push
Always have done.
Some writers/producers/directors etc have enough talent and subtlety to balance these expectations and present them organically or even go the opposite route and use hyperbolic humour to make their criticisms/message known (see the Harley Quinn show.) Most don’t. More often than not, studio mandates crush subtle storytelling and only want good PR to engender praise for the brand. Even with talented creators at the helm

That said, with the amount of subtle and not so subtle messaging that is seemingly ignored by some sections of the audience (ie the fanboys of The Boys crying when the show went with the decision to portray Homelander as the bad guy, despite that being the entire point of the show to begin with or that time when Rage Against the Machine had to tell conservatives that they were the machine, which admittedly was beyond hilarious) I can’t exactly blame some studios for using a mallet to try to hammer home their actual message.
Seriously media illiteracy is the bane of many game discussions I’ve been unfortunate enough to participate in.
I’m all for having one’s own personal interpretation of art. But some conclusions reached just quite frankly baffle me
I don't mind that artists or corporations have agendas and want to push them. But it shouldn't come at the cost of quality.

I don't care what sexuality, colour or gender a person has, but if it is obvious that they are cast in the role due to some political agenda and make the show/movie worse then I'm against it. And I think you are right, these things are done because some high-ups believe that it is important for some reason. Either for a studio's image or whatever, but probably also make sure to hire writers that they can either push or agree with these because let's be honest the majority of these movies / shows perform much worse than they could.
 
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Nimos

Well-Known Member
Don't we already have a word for that though? It's called propaganda. Right? It's not exactly new. Though what "makes sense" for the story is pretty subjective and isn't in the spirit of respecting creative license.
To me certain things are obvious that they make no sense.

Take Star wars and the example with Lando, not sure if you know him? Anyway, he is a minor character in Star wars, but was liked in the original movies. Where there is no romantic stuff with him as with 99% of the characters in Star wars as it is not an important topic in it. But in Solo they suddenly decided that he is into robots, which have never been mentioned before or since and plays absolutely no importance in the movie at all or for anything else. The only thing that fans can get out of it, is that it is silly and at best ruins his character or is simply irrelevant.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't mind that artists or corporations have agendas and want to push them. But it shouldn't come at the cost of quality.

I don't care what sexuality, colour or gender a person has, but if it is obvious that they are cast in the role due to some political agenda and make the show/movie worse then I'm against it. And I think you are right, these things are done because some high-ups believe that it is important for some reason. Either for a studio's image or whatever, but probably also make sure to hire writers that they can either push or agree with these because let's be honest the majority of these movies / shows perform much worse than they could.
Honestly I agree and wish for the same thing. If you want to put a message into your art, it should be done organically.
And it absolutely can be done well, given the right creator. Usually because it’s a reflection of the artist’s honest beliefs. So it ends up being somewhat incidental to the story or informing it in a believable manner

Alas corporate higher ups aren’t known for their artistic talent nor their integrity
They just make investments and try to capitalise on trends. Sometimes obnoxiously so. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of art in the editing hands of folks who just want a quick buck and nothing else. Or they hire someone to capitalise on a message they want to promote for good PR.
Which ends up souring a lot of messages in the long run. Even messages that may have good intentions.
Because they’re either edited horribly by the studio after the fact, pushed obnoxiously by the studio or given to people who don’t care about the message. So it ends up being clumsily handled at best
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Honestly I agree and wish for the same thing. If you want to put a message into your art, it should be done organically.
And it absolutely can be done well, given the right creator. Usually because it’s a reflection of the artist’s honest beliefs. So it ends up being somewhat incidental to the story or informing it in a believable manner
In principle, it is done in almost everything that is good. Take something like Lord of the Rings as Tolkien wrote it, that as with any other story has an agenda or topic that the author wanted to tell, the problem is that a lot of these studios simply can't accept the original work or believe they can improve on it or spice it up or whatever and honestly in 90% of the cases it only makes it worse.

If they want to tell such a story lets say about gender inequality, then write or find a story where that is the main topic. Its like when PJ in the Hobbit had to add a romance story between an elf and a dwarf. It is not needed in that story, and it served absolutely no purpose except taking away time from the rest and made the movie worse.

You sometimes get the impression that when they make a movie they have a checklist with 100 points and then they just start adding stuff until all the checkboxes have been marked.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I just heard a review of "Velma" on NPR.
It sounds very woke....& unfunny.
The amount of things being released at the moment, especially if you like sci-fi and fantasy stuff, which is beyond bad is insane. I have had to stop watching several of them because they are so low quality in almost all departments. How some of these things are made and there are people willing to pay for them getting produced is crazy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The amount of things being released at the moment, especially if you like sci-fi and fantasy stuff, which is beyond bad is insane. I have had to stop watching several of them because they are so low quality in almost all departments. How some of these things are made and there are people willing to pay for them getting produced is crazy.
I really like the new Dune.
Looking forward to next season.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The movie or is there a Dune tvshow?
It's a TV series.
I like Lynch's movie, but this series has higher
production values, & takes a different approach,
but is very well done. Dune is better suited to
a series than an under 3-hour movie.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd be curious to know what the difference is between a company trying to pander vs. characters included that just happen to be gay or some such. In the real world I interact with folks who happen to be from the lgbt spectrum almost every day, and it is what it is. It's just life

I think that would depend on how it was done and on the context of the story. I was speaking generally, as I'm quite skeptical of corporate motives in general and don't see any of the major corporations with a history of exploitative and questionable practices—such as Disney, Amazon, and EA—as genuine allies of minorities but as entities mostly just looking to cash in on ostensible "progressivism."
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
In principle, it is done in almost everything that is good. Take something like Lord of the Rings as Tolkien wrote it, that as with any other story has an agenda or topic that the author wanted to tell, the problem is that a lot of these studios simply can't accept the original work or believe they can improve on it or spice it up or whatever and honestly in 90% of the cases it only makes it worse.
I agree.
And I mean Tolkien is certainly one of those creators I was talking about. His underlying message of the good in humanity, creating strong bonds across even prejudices and the strength of friendship seem rather organic in the books and films because they are messages that he believes in. I mean the original Trilogy is more or less based on Tolkien’s time in Trench warfare during WWI right. So the lessons he took from that just came though in an organic manner.
Studios recreating that? Ehh not so much

If they want to tell such a story lets say about gender inequality, then write or find a story where that is the main topic. Its like when PJ in the Hobbit had to add a romance story between an elf and a dwarf. It is not needed in that story, and it served absolutely no purpose except taking away time from the rest and made the movie worse.

Yeah I agree that PJ just went all over the place in his adapting of the Hobbit. Ironically enough that’s what sometimes happens when creators are given too much free reign. There is a balance, as with all things

But I kind of disagree that they can’t do a message about gender equality in a Tolkien project and do it organically. Much of the underlying message in the original trilogy is about overcoming prejudices and how such divides can lead to our collective destruction. The whole “United we stand, divided we fall” thing

It would be more of a deconstruction of the structures that are in Tolkien’s world admittedly (much of them based on our own medieval structures from history.)
Still I think it can be done and still feel organic. Just be one hell of a balancing act.

See I’m the type who thinks art can and should be explored beyond their original bounds. Meaning differing interpretations don’t necessarily have to be bound to the original limits of the original. But I do think it should be done respectfully. Even if it’s done to criticise something.
And indeed criticisms can form their own art as well. Like The Golden Compass book series was literally and purposefully an anti Chronicles of Narnia series. Like that was their entire point to their existence in the first place, not even kidding. Somewhat ironically they butchered the film adaptation because the studio wanted to recreate the success Disney had had with their own Narnia adaptions. So they just made a quick cash grab by making it “Narnia but a little bit darker.” Completely not understanding why the work was so popular to begin with.
(Incidentally C S Lewis and Tolkien were real life friends who admired each other’s work. So that’s a fun little coincidence.)

You sometimes get the impression that when they make a movie they have a checklist with 100 points and then they just start adding stuff until all the checkboxes have been marked.
I think they absolutely are if I’m honest lol

I believe they call it “marketing.”
The sign of a good product (movie, game or tv show) for me is if the creators are able to make me forget their little checklists. Or deliver their message in an engaging way that makes me either accept and digest it or even question it, but healthily. You know?

Like I think Miyazaki is a good example. His movies are rife with messages about respecting nature and even cautionary tales of man’s hubris. You could even argue he sometimes deconstructs his own culture’s ideals at times (Grave of the Fireflies.)
But these messages all feel organic in his films because they are his honest beliefs. So his ends up making good products that just so happen to contain these messages.
Authenticity goes a long way in art.

Compare that with all those 90s environmental movies like Fern Gully or whatever. Good messages with good intentions, sure. But the films had to sell you the idea of the environment being important and for us to maybe watch how much we interfere in it first and foremost.
So you end up feeling manipulated and like you said, you could practically see the checklist the studio heads were ticking off throughout the film
(For the record I do have a lot of nostalgic love for Fern Gully but it is absolutely not an authentically good film about the importance of the rainforest. Let’s be real lol.)

I think people are angry (rightfully so) at the capitalist manipulation and interference in art. I do think some of that anger is directed in the wrong direction at times though.
It is ultimately growing pains but I think there’s still some diamonds in the rough, so to speak
 
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Nimos

Well-Known Member
It's a TV series.
I like Lynch's movie, but this series has higher
production values, & takes a different approach,
but is very well done. Dune is better suited to
a series than an under 3-hour movie.
Is it the Dune tv show from 2000?

Then there is Dune the Sisterhood but that hasn't been released yet.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
To me certain things are obvious that they make no sense.

Take Star wars and the example with Lando, not sure if you know him? Anyway, he is a minor character in Star wars, but was liked in the original movies. Where there is no romantic stuff with him as with 99% of the characters in Star wars as it is not an important topic in it. But in Solo they suddenly decided that he is into robots, which have never been mentioned before or since and plays absolutely no importance in the movie at all or for anything else. The only thing that fans can get out of it, is that it is silly and at best ruins his character or is simply irrelevant.

If a detail is unnecessary but doesn't reduce the quality of the story, why is it bad? I get why it would be bad to completely change a character and clumsily force them into being a member of a specific group just to add "diversity," but take something like the same-sex kiss in Lightyear: I think it's spontaneous or at least minor enough not to seem forced, and it's no different from showing a man kissing his wife, or vice versa.

The controversy over the depiction of Little Mermaid as black in the remake is also quite hyperbolic, in my opinion, because adaptations of fantasy stories have always had room for artistic license. Yes, it's better to have stories written from the ground up around LGBT or black characters instead of sexuality-swapping or race-swapping if an artist wants to depict them as main characters, but does a black Little Mermaid really ruin the movie as some argue? I absolutely don't think so.

While corporate PR can obnoxiously influence movie plots, sometimes I see disproportionate outrage from people who are upset just because they themselves have an agenda or ideology that disagrees with the depiction or acknowledgment of specific groups. Some countries have even banned movies with LGBT characters (including Lightyear), and when I see such responses, I can't help thinking that some of the characters may well be necessary to further break this taboo and normalize depiction of certain minorities in media.
 
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Nimos

Well-Known Member
I think people are angry (rightfully so) at the capitalist manipulation and interference in art. I do think some of that anger is directed in the wrong direction at times though.
It is ultimately growing pains but I think there’s still some diamonds in the rough, so to speak
To me, it's just that I don't think these companies should try to manipulate people in the way they are because the majority of people watch these things to be entertained. But it's fine that they want to raise awareness if they have some sort of agenda or topic that they think is important, but that is not the impression I get, but rather the first part. It's about trying to manipulate people by forcing their own views or morals on the viewers.

But as I see it, it only makes stuff worse if you try to appeal to every viewer. For instance, if you watch Alien, you don't watch it because you want a romance story about Ripley and whoever, you want to see Aliens eat humans and humans shoot aliens. Whether one of the people is gay or not is completely irrelevant, unless it is important for the story somehow.

And to me, it's just annoying, when these things are constantly forced into stories where they don't belong and be taught morals, which in most cases are absolutely rubbish.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What I've seen is attacks on various programs based on bigotry and bias. For some it does not matter how good an actor is nor whether or not there's a particular ethnic historical factor but that white males are not playing the part that triggers "woke woke woke" accusations.

Being a counter-puncher by nature, I've gotten to the point where I automatically believe that calling something woke means the accuser is automatically a far-right wing political type or has been taken in by right wing propaganda and gaslighting.

Some that have had that accusation: Star Wars sequels (Last Jedi), Star Wars Force Awakens, Star Trek (most of them), Battlestar Galactica, Netflix in general), Rings of Power, WALL-E, The Lego Movie, Black Panther- and that's just the ones I found with 5 minutes of searching that I knew anything about or have seen.
 
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