Woke

[Watchmen]

To me, it's just that I don't think these companies should try to manipulate people in the way they are because the majority of people watch these things to be entertained. But it's fine that they want to raise awareness if they have some sort of agenda or topic that they think is important, but that is not the impression I get, but rather the first part. It's about trying to manipulate people by forcing their own views or morals on the viewers.

But as I see it, it only makes stuff worse if you try to appeal to every viewer. For instance, if you watch Alien, you don't watch it because you want a romance story about Ripley and whoever, you want to see Aliens eat humans and humans shoot aliens. Whether one of the people is gay or not is completely irrelevant, unless it is important for the story somehow.

And to me, it's just annoying, when these things are constantly forced into stories where they don't belong and be taught morals, which in most cases are absolutely rubbish.

Alien is an interesting example. Alien was feminist without saying, “Look at me! I’m doing what the guys do and I’m even better at it!” Rather, Alien SHOWED us that Ripley is a ******. To reinforce the point, Ripley stripped down to her underwear in the final act to remind the viewer this ****** is a woman.

 

[Nimos]

If a detail is unnecessary but doesn't reduce the quality of the story, why is it bad?

Because I think these things in general reduce quality. It doesn't matter whether it is racial or gender etc. if something is pointed out, like let's say Lando is into robots, that is fine, I probably don't think it belongs in Star wars in general, because I think it's the wrong story to do it in. Likewise, I would have hated, had the love story between Solo, Luke and Leia in the original taken up more time, for the same reason. At least in the original the love story has some minor meaning so it is fine. But in the Solo movie, it has nothing to do with anything. So it is just a waste of time and is never mentioned again.

To me, it would be like watching Lord of the rings and then Gimli suddenly has to talk about how he is gay, and then we never hear about it again. Then what was the point of it?

 

[Nimos]

Dune (2021) - IMDb

That is the movie? I thought you said you were watching a tv show.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Because I think these things in general reduce quality. It doesn't matter whether it is racial or gender etc. if something is pointed out, like let's say Lando is into robots, that is fine, I probably don't think it belongs in Star wars in general, because I think it's the wrong story to do it in. Likewise, I would have hated, had the love story between Solo, Luke and Leia in the original taken up more time, for the same reason. At least in the original the love story has some minor meaning so it is fine. But in the Solo movie, it has nothing to do with anything. So it is just a waste of time and is never mentioned again.

To me, it would be like watching Lord of the rings and then Gimli suddenly has to talk about how he is gay, and then we never hear about it again. Then what was the point of it?

I believe such forced depictions are what some call "tokenism," where they're inserted for the PR rather than actual substance.

But what are your thoughts on the other examples I mentioned, such as Lightyear or the remake of Little Mermaid?

 

[Nimos]

Alien is an interesting example. Alien was feminist without saying, “Look at me! I’m doing what the guys do and I’m even better at it!” Rather, Alien SHOWED us that Ripley is a ******. To reinforce the point, Ripley stripped down to her underwear in the final act to remind the viewer this ****** is a woman.

I love Ripley as a protagonist. She has "earned" what she can do and is a ******. But she is not a modern-day female heroine that can just do whatever they want, because they are a woman. That is a huge difference between these types of characters.

 

[Nimos]

I believe such forced depictions are what some call "tokenism," where they're inserted for the PR rather than actual substance.

But what are your thoughts on the other examples I mentioned, such as Lightyear or the remake of Little Mermaid?

I haven't seen Lightyear so don't know the general tone in it, so if it's just used for a laugh or something obviously not important for the story, I have no problem with it. It's more if they have to point it out or you can see they make a big deal out of it, but never use it for anything later on.

I think the little mermaid is fine, I don't really see a problem with it. But again it depends on how they do it, if her parents are Asian and White then I don't like it because it doesn't make sense unless they explain it. It also depends on the lore that is behind it and I have to admit that I don't know it, if there even is one. Ultimately I don't care, as long as it makes sense in relationship to the story.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

If you look at the books in the background.

She's a lawyer. What books do you expect, Chicken Soup for the Soul?

And the scene goes straight into making a guy look like an idiot and what a scum he is and in general how men are bad.

How dare they illustrate ingrained misogyny in the workplace.

However that She hulk goes around sleeping with random people etc. is no issue, because she is a woman.

What an oversimplification of the show. She sleeps with two people; the first guy after an exceptionally positive date (shocker, I know), and the second after she got to know him. It is absolutely not like she was plucking men off the street to rack up a body count. But anything to rage against, I suppose...

This is obviously because the creators have an agenda.

So, here's a small insight; every show has an agenda.

Sexuality examples could be that a huge amount of protagonists are of "alternative" sexuality, such as bisexuals, lesbians etc. and usually again this is done without any context to the show or movie but is simply there because of the political agenda. An example of this can be found in Solo (Star wars) which is not exactly a show famous for sexuality or romance playing a huge role. But where one of the famous characters from the original movie is suddenly a person that is sexual/romantic involved with a robot. This plays absolutely no purpose in the story or for the character at all in the movie or for the rest of Star wars.

Horribly wrong on so many levels.

Yes, Lando is shown to have a relationship with L3 that borders on romantic, but nowhere is it ever shown or portrayed to be sexual. Chuck that right in the "overreaction" bin. This relationship plays a very important role when L3 is critically damaged, and to save her life they put her central processor into the Millennium Falcon, effectively making her the ship. This gives explanation for why Lando was so attached to a ship.

As well, how ridiculously short-sighted and willfully blind to say that Star Wars has never had sexuality or romance play a huge role. Firstly, Lando's sexuality was not a "huge role", okay? It's not like he constantly talks about wanting to boink his robot. You're overreacting, settle down. Secondly, remember the whole love triangle between Luke, Leia, and Han? And then the relationship between Han and Leia? Those had some pretty huge moments, including the only proper response to "I love you"

Oh, and then there's the whole romance between Anakin and Padme that is, oh I don't know, entirely central to the plot.

Get outta here with that nonsense.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Personally, I almost exclusively watch horror, and I dislike it when a movie's message is thrown so forcefully in the viewer's face instead of having a baseline of subtlety and clever delivery.

An example of this, in my opinion, is Jordan Peele's Get Out, which is a generally excellent movie with a plot written around a Black protagonist. The story is good, as are the acting and atmosphere. The main problem is that it tries so hard to hammer home its message that it ends up looking exaggerated at some points. Every single white character without exception is despicable, and every Black one is either a hero or a victim.

Peele's following movie, Us, was much better in its delivery, in my opinion, and I liked it much more than Get Out. Lack of subtlety or subpar delivery of a plot's message definitely isn't an exclusive issue of "woke" media, though: it can happen with all sorts of messages and agendas in media. It's more about the delivery than the content or message itself.

 

[SomeRandom]

To me, it's just that I don't think these companies should try to manipulate people in the way they are because the majority of people watch these things to be entertained. But it's fine that they want to raise awareness if they have some sort of agenda or topic that they think is important, but that is not the impression I get, but rather the first part. It's about trying to manipulate people by forcing their own views or morals on the viewers..

Thats what they’ve always done though.
Like do you honestly think Happy Days wasn’t made to promote a message and manipulate folks? Of course it was. It glamorised the “good old days” and often reaffirmed the politics of certain groups. Assuaging their fears and patted them on the back really.
Only difference now is some messages are done to purposefully call people out or point out the flaws of certain views.
Whilst I certainly can agree it can become preachy and manipulative. That’s just what capitalism does to art. It’s only noticeable now because the “established status quo” is kind of copping the same medicine it has dished out.
Not saying you’re upholding that status quo, just that messages in entertainment are often more noticeable if they go after certain viewpoints.
And yeah if they’re done in a rather preachy and manipulative manner. That’s a fair criticism

But as I see it, it only makes stuff worse if you try to appeal to every viewer. For instance, if you watch Alien, you don't watch it because you want a romance story about Ripley and whoever, you want to see Aliens eat humans and humans shoot aliens. Whether one of the people is gay or not is completely irrelevant, unless it is important for the story somehow.

I think you’re underselling the importance a tiny bit. For a little girl or boy looking up to a character such as Ripley (yeah I know, rated R but we all snuck a peak lol) to have an affirmation of sexuality may be rather enlightening or freeing for that viewer. To finally see someone who is like them (maybe gay or black or whatever) in a position of heroism is empowering for people. Granted I think representation can be handled awfully and should be done organically. But representation in popular works can mean a lot to a lot of people. For a variety of reasons.
And if you genuinely think it doesn’t, then I’m sincerely happy you don’t need that in your life to feel a bit better about yourself. Honestly I am
But others aren’t always that lucky

And to me, it's just annoying, when these things are constantly forced into stories where they don't belong and be taught morals, which in most cases are absolutely rubbish.

I agree that teaching morals and “forced diversity” aka tokenism is often awful and annoying as hell.
But it’s not all doom and gloom. Some can benefit from looking at established characters through an entirely different lens.
I again point to the Harley Quinn animated tv show. It is both a loving parody and a sincere portrayal of established DC characters. Even giving the Joker of all people actual character growth. Which is still wild to me, but it somehow just works lol

 

[Nimos]

She's a lawyer. What books do you expect, Chicken Soup for the Soul?

It's about the messages in the show and the general tone. That in order to make her look "strong" they have to tear down men, there are hardly any men in that series that are remotely likeable.

Yes, Lando is shown to have a relationship with L3 that borders on romantic, but nowhere is it ever shown or portrayed to be sexual.

Yes, it is, when the robot speaks with the girl in the cockpit.

This gives explanation for why Lando was so attached to a ship.

Yes, and it is absolutely rubbish. The robot is fighting for the free rights of robots, which in itself is ridiculous. But the writers are so screwed up in their morals, that they end up trapping it in the Falcon forever as if that is something good.

Secondly, remember the whole love triangle between Luke, Leia, and Han?

Yes, and as I said, it didn't play a huge role and is quickly forgotten. Which was good. And sure there is the Solo and Leia scene, but in general, everything about it is rather innocent.

Oh, and then there's the whole romance between Anakin and Padme that is, oh I don't know, entirely central to the plot.

And it is also rubbish and painful to watch.

Anakin is 8-10 years old in the first movie and she is like 24-27 or something. In the next movie, he is 20+ and she is still magically 24-27, what an amazing love story, exactly what Star wars was missing.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It's about the messages in the show and the general tone. That in order to make her look "strong" they have to tear down men, there are hardly any men in that series that are remotely likeable.

That sounds like a ton of projection. Nevermind that in the show, that very same man continues to be a supporting character who is a "lovable dumba**" (and be honest, we all know at least one) while also serving as a vehicle for workplaces that are toxic for women. The point was entirely lost on you, it seems, in your eagerness to be offended at a strong woman.

Yes, it is, when the robot speaks with the girl in the cockpit.

Oh, you mean when the topic of they're relationship came up and L3 said "Sometimes I think 'maybe', but no."? That conversation with Qi'ra?

Yes, and it is absolutely rubbish.

Can't please everyone, but your claims that it had no point are flatly false.

Yes, and as I said, it didn't play a huge role and is quickly forgotten.

No it wasn't. Even after it was established that Luke and Leia are siblings and they have their talk, Han gets all moody and asks Leia if she loves him, saying that he'll let them alone.

And sure there is the Solo and Leia scene, but in general, everything about it is rather innocent.

No, everything about it is normal to you. Which makes all the difference. You don't want to see any of the "weird stuff" (in a Space Fantasy of all things), you want to see heteronormal relationships.

And it is also rubbish and painful to watch.

So again, your claim that romance hasn't played a huge role in Star Wars is flatly false.

Anakin is 8-10 years old in the first movie and she is like 24-27 or something.

This just tells me you're not big into Star Wars, which makes your outrage over this just... ridiculous. Padme is stated to be the youngest Queen of Naboo at the age of 14. She's 14 in the movie.

In the next movie, he is 20+ and she is still magically 24-27

Anakin is 18-19 at the start of the Clone Wars, making Padme then around 22-24.

 

[Nimos]

I think you’re underselling the importance a tiny bit. For a little girl or boy looking up to a character such as Ripley (yeah I know, rated R but we all snuck a peak lol) to have an affirmation of sexuality may be rather enlightening or freeing for that viewer. To finally see someone who is like them (maybe gay or black or whatever) in a position of heroism is empowering for people. Granted I think representation can be handled awfully and should be done organically. But representation in popular works can mean a lot to a lot of people. For a variety of reasons.
And if you genuinely think it doesn’t, then I’m sincerely happy you don’t need that in your life to feel a bit better about yourself. Honestly I am
But others aren’t always that lucky

That is a fair point, but again i'm not against it. It simply has to be done correctly.

I again point to the Harley Quinn animated tv show. It is both a loving parody and a sincere portrayal of established DC characters. Even giving the Joker of all people actual character growth. Which is still wild to me, but it somehow just works lol

I haven't seen that.

 

[Nimos]

That sounds like a ton of projection. Nevermind that in the show, that very same man continues to be a supporting character who is a "lovable dumba**" (and be honest, we all know at least one) while also serving as a vehicle for workplaces that are toxic for women. The point was entirely lost on you, it seems, in your eagerness to be offended at a strong woman.

I don't think she is a strong woman, I think she is a disgrace and an insult to women, to be honest. And that the show in general in its attempt to promote females hurt them. That scene in the bathroom, where the girls comes in and she looks like she could have been hurt or raped or something, the first thing the women do, is blame a guy for it. if I recall correctly. But instead of getting help which would be the normal thing to do, they just dress her up. Doesn't exactly make women look good. And if you hear what the writer said about that scene, that it was the most important one for her in the show, because it shows how a girl's toilet is a safe place for women or something and then doing something like that is absolutely rubbish.

If you think that this show, does a good job of depicting strong women that is fair, but I would find it to be an insult and to me has nothing to do with strong woman.

Oh, you mean when the topic of they're relationship came up and L3 said "Sometimes I think 'maybe', but no."? That conversation with Qi'ra?

Its a long time since I have seen it, but if I recall correctly, she ask "how they do it" or something like that and the robot say that it is possible or something. They obviously don't say it directly, it is Star wars after all.

No it wasn't. Even after it was established that Luke and Leia are siblings and they have their talk, Han gets all moody and asks Leia if she loves him, saying that he'll let them alone.

Yes, but let's be honest, it gives a bit of character development and some comic moments and some romantic moments. But it's not a huge deal in the 3 original Star wars movies.

No, everything about it is normal to you. Which makes all the difference. You don't want to see any of the "weird stuff" (in a Space Fantasy of all things), you want to see heteronormal relationships.

No, I didn't say that. Had Luke and Solo been into each other instead and been equally innocent, that would have been fine as well. It's about the type of story and movie they are telling. As I said to someone else, I wouldn't like having to watch Lord of the rings either and having to spend time on how Gimli is gay and it going nowhere in regards to the story. Solo and Leia is as innocent as Aragon and Arwen love story in Lord of the rings and that is fine, it doesn't need to be deeper in such type of movie. And it even plays a huge role in Lord of the rings as Arwen would end up being mortal etc. It's about time and place, not about sexuality.

So again, your claim that romance hasn't played a huge role in Star Wars is flatly false.

I don't see Star wars as a romance.

I thought the whole love story between Anakin and Padme was lame, to be honest. I had no wish to see Darth Vader as an 8-year-old kid for that matter, it is not what makes him interesting as a character. In general, they could have skipped the whole first movie for all I care.

This just tells me you're not big into Star Wars, which makes your outrage over this just... ridiculous. Padme is stated to be the youngest Queen of Naboo at the age of 14. She's 14 in the movie.

She is supposed to be 14 in the first movie?

Wow Then she is poorly casted for that role in the first movie, their relationship is more like that of a mother and son in the first movie. I would say.

And you are correct, I like the original movies, the rest of them are poor to absolutely rubbish. Andor is ok. That is probably the best I can do.

Anakin is 18-19 at the start of the Clone Wars, making Padme then around 22-24.

Fair enough, I believe you, but awful casting then. That is not the age difference between them I got at all.

First movie

Second movie?

 

[SomeRandom]

That is a fair point, but again i'm not against it. It simply has to be done correctly.
.

I agree

I haven't seen that.

Highly recommend. It’s on HBO max I think. Just go in for a fun show and don’t take it very seriously. It’s a dark comedy at the end of the day and I will say (possible spoilers) Harley and Ivy, well let’s just say don’t be too shocked if something more than friendship blossoms

And to be fair they are dating in a lot of the comic storyline’s anyway

 

[Revoltingest]

That is the movie? I thought you said you were watching a tv show.

It's the TV show.
Although I guess a TV series with only 2 parts could be called a movie.
Anyway, it's great.

 

[Nimos]

I agree

Highly recommend. It’s on HBO max I think. Just go in for a fun show and don’t take it very seriously. It’s a dark comedy at the end of the day and I will say (possible spoilers) Harley and Ivy, well let’s just say don’t be too shocked if something more than friendship blossoms

And to be fair they are dating in a lot of the comic storyline’s anyway

Harley is that super heroine right? Im not really into super hero stuff, its not really my cup of tea.

 

[Nimos]

It's the TV show.

But the link was to the movie wasn't it?

 

[SomeRandom]

Harley is that super heroine right? Im not really into super hero stuff, its not really my cup of tea.

Well actually she’s the super villain.
It’s one of DCs best for ages.
But fair enough if it’s not for you.

 

[Revoltingest]

But the link was to the movie wasn't it?

Was it shown in theaters?
I saw it on TV.

 

[Nimos]

Was it shown in theaters?
I saw it on TV.

I can't remember.

Might have been in the middle of Covid. But it was a movie in several parts like Lord of the Rings etc.