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Woke

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I don't think she is a strong woman, I think she is a disgrace and an insult to women, to be honest.
Of course.

Its a long time since I have seen it, but if I recall correctly, she ask "how they do it" or something like that and the robot say that it is possible or something.
L3 states "I'm sure you've noticed that Lando has feelings for me, which makes working difficult because I do not feel the same way about him." Qi'ra's incredulous reaction is a very clear visual show that this is not something that is evident (or even present), but she plays along. L3 continues, saying "Sometimes I think 'maybe', but no. We're just not compatible" So it's explicitly stated that she does not have romantic or sexual feelings for Lando. Qi'ra then asks, "How would that work?" to which L3 replies, not enthusiastically, "It works."

The discussion centered around a relationship. There was nothing sexual about the discussion unless you're hunting for it.

Yes, but let's be honest, it gives a bit of character development and some comic moments and some romantic moments. But it's not a huge deal in the 3 original Star wars movies.
You could not have picked a worse hill to die on.

Firstly, the romance and relationships in Episodes IV - VI (and certainly I-III) are absolutely a huge deal. In The Empire Strikes Back, the entire reason Leia wants Han to stay is because she loves him - they have an entire conversation about it. The Rebellion doesn't need one more pilot, they don't need a smuggler or a spy, she needs him. She even goes out of her way to rescue him in Return of the Jedi, a completely unnecessary and dangerous move, entirely because she loves him. Which leads her to being captured (and having a space-slug putting a human woman in a bikini...), necessitating Luke to swoop in and save them all.

Secondly, the relationship between Lando and L3-37 that you're making a huge deal about has less mention than that between Han and Leia, and ultimately amounts to nothing more than the relationship between Han and Chewbacca. Lando cares about L3, and she's very important to him, but there is no romance ever mentioned or shown outside a parallel to the relationship between Han and Qi'ra - which I notice you're oddly quiet about... Is it because it's a "normal" relationship?

It's about the type of story and movie they are telling. As I said to someone else, I wouldn't like having to watch Lord of the rings either and having to spend time on how Gimli is gay and it going nowhere in regards to the story.
Only the relationship between Lando and L3-37 absolutely goes somewhere in regards to the story, not only that of Solo but that of The Empire Strikes Back.

It's about time and place, not about sexuality.
You're making the L3-Lando relationship about sexuality, and you're making it a larger thing than it was. It had important ties and elements, to be sure, but you're acting as though it was the focal point to the movie.

I don't see Star wars as a romance.
That's a "you" problem, because it absolutely includes romance. Especially Episodes I - III.

She is supposed to be 14 in the first movie? Wow :D Then she is poorly casted for that role in the first movie
No, she's really not. Natalie Portman was 16 when filming began on The Phantom Menace.

For comparison:

Luke Skywalker - 19 (Mark Hamill - 25)

Star-Wars-Luke-on-Tatooine.png


Han Solo - 29 (Harrison Ford - 34)

Hansoloprofile.png
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
I don't know what's worse, woke or anti-woke. Both have become reactionarism.

Do we have to continually suffer through more straight white muscular male action messiahs? Why does the race, sex or gender of a fictitious comic book character even matter, at all? When are character portrayals of ancient Romans going to stop having British accents (why not Greek or Italian)?
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Another example could be gender roles, where you will depict females as being extremely strong and usually make males look like idiots.
Did you ever object when it was, at one time, the other way around?
 

idea

Question Everything
It's all McDonald's Movies.

Why is McDonald's so popular? Why not support the unique mom and pop shops who have better food?

Why are remakes, sequals, repetitive storylines popular? Why not support independent films?

McDonald's and movies - the masses like the familiar, choose the easy/safe/comfortable/predictable/familiar.
 
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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Half the problem here is what is considered "woke" is not "being woke". It's a Conservative stand-in for "Liberalism and anything we don't like". "Stay woke", however, has origins in the 1930's, specifically from African American Vernacular English, to denote vigilance and awareness to racial injustices still persisting. It was coined by the songwriter Huddie Ledbetter, who said "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open." Use of it persisted in the slang of telling people to "Wake up" when they needed to be aware of things around them, and by 2010 the notion had expanded to social awareness of several forms of injustice.

That's what woke means.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Tinky Winky, that was his name. Yep, he sure got their dander up.
It's always fascinating watching grown people have 'serious' committees on Tinky Winkys 'gayness'.

The kids watching the show could actually care less one-way or the other.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
It's always fascinating watching grown people have 'serious' committees on Tinky Winkys 'gayness'.

The kids watching the show could actually care less one-way or the other.
Lol
Behold the face of evil corrupting our kids!!!!

upload_2023-1-19_21-13-37.gif
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
L3 continues, saying "Sometimes I think 'maybe', but no. We're just not compatible" So it's explicitly stated that she does not have romantic or sexual feelings for Lando. Qi'ra then asks, "How would that work?" to which L3 replies, not enthusiastically, "It works."
It's a matter of interpretation then, why would they even add this conversation if it weren't what they implied? And Lando starts to cry when it is killed etc.

You could not have picked a worse hill to die on.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it doesn't play a role in the movie.

But if you were to briefly tell what Star wars the original movies were about, you wouldn't highlight this as a big plot point in the story. It is about good vs evil, how the rebellion fights the empire and Luke vs his father etc.

If you wanted a romantic movie, you would watch something like Notting hill or Pretty woman etc. Where it is one of the main points of the story.

Only the relationship between Lando and L3-37 absolutely goes somewhere in regards to the story, not only that of Solo but that of The Empire Strikes Back.
It doesn't, it is something that has been added later trying to give an explanation. But it is silly, in the way that you would never make that connection in The Empire Strikes Back, that this is the reason.

No, she's really not. Natalie Portman was 16 when filming began on The Phantom Menace.
As I said it is fair enough, I didn't get that little age difference between them when I saw it. It would have been interesting to see how people would have reacted had it been the other way around.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Woke TV usually means that TV shows seem to have some sort of agenda or message that they believe is extremely important to force down people's throats. The most common things as of now are racial, gender and sexuality messages, an example could be that a given person in a movie or tv show needs to be of a given colour regardless of whether it makes sense or not in regard to the story.

An example of this can be the new Witcher show (Which is absolutely horrible in general), but in that show, you have all races represented in one huge mess. So imagine watching a movie about samurais, then we would expect people to come from Japan. But then imagine that in such a show, you have every single race you can think of thrown in there all being samurais and then act as if that is perfectly normal.

Another example could be gender roles, where you will depict females as being extremely strong and usually make males look like idiots. And again it is usually done so the female protagonist hasn't earned any of it. A good example of this could be Rey from Star wars, a girl that easily overcomes anything she faces, doesn't really need to learn anything and can just do stuff whenever she needs it, for no particular reason, often linked to that of a Marry sue character. She hulk is also a good example.

This is a screenshot from the first 30 second of She hulk.

View attachment 70672

If you look at the books in the background. And the scene goes straight into making a guy look like an idiot and what a scum he is and in general how men are bad. However that She hulk goes around sleeping with random people etc. is no issue, because she is a woman. This is obviously because the creators have an agenda.

Sexuality examples could be that a huge amount of protagonists are of "alternative" sexuality, such as bisexuals, lesbians etc. and usually again this is done without any context to the show or movie but is simply there because of the political agenda. An example of this can be found in Solo (Star wars) which is not exactly a show famous for sexuality or romance playing a huge role. But where one of the famous characters from the original movie is suddenly a person that is sexual/romantic involved with a robot. This plays absolutely no purpose in the story or for the character at all in the movie or for the rest of Star wars. But again is added due to some political message that Disney thought was important.

So as with the OP. I am sick and tired of it as well.
I agree with this.
Curiously Wakanda characters are all black. There is no discrimination issue there.
I liked the diversity of the Harry Potter cast because it is set in Modern UK and it made good sense.
I was bewildered in this horrible Amazon series on the Rings when an elf protagonist was cast as African American. That was ridiculous. In Tolkien lore elves awoke before the sun was made, and since the light of Elbereth resides in them ( the same light that made the sun) they do not need skin pigments as sun blockers. And you do not get middle aged elves as they, ahem, do not grow old. For example Galadriel is shown young and Celebrimbor middle aged when the latter is her brothers grandson!!
Humans had diversity of skin colour depending on which group they belonged to.
The Numenoreans and Gondoreans were described consistently as brown skinned with grey eyes (so more Middle Eastern folks). So there again the series (and even the movies) goofed up.
Why would dwarves have Irish accent by the way?
Absurd.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There was a series on Netflix a while back that was very popular and won awards. It was set in a time and place that would, if accurate, require all the actors to be white. And although all other aspects of the series were relatively in keeping with the period, they hired the actors with no consideration for race. The queen was Asian, the leading male was black, the leading female was white, and so on.

But they were good actors, and were given well written scripts. And great costumes, and sets. And the viewers loved it. I was pleasantly surprised by how little the ethnic diversity of the cast mattered. After a few minutes at the beginning I no longer even noticed.

As others have already mentioned, I don't think it's the "wokeness" of the producers that becomes so tiresome. I think it's just poorly executed story-telling.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
It's a matter of interpretation then, why would they even add this conversation if it weren't what they implied? And Lando starts to cry when it is killed etc.
It's not really up to interpretation, as it's very explicitly shown and discussed. L3 has that conversation with Qi'ra firstly because she's trying to "do the human thing" and gossip; it all got started with mention of Han's infatuation with Qi'ra and her clear mutual feelings. All of this goes on to establish depth to Lando's character, enhancing elements that were in the original trilogy and had no background: it establishes why Lando is more amicable toward droids in a galaxy that largely ignores them while relying on them; it shows why Lando is not happy to see Han at first, and still refers to the Falcon as his ship; last and least it gives a background to C3-PO commenting that the Falcon has a foul mouth.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it doesn't play a role in the movie.
Yes, the words used have been "huge role". My issue is that you are making the relationship between L3 and Lando into a bigger deal than it was in the movie (even with it's far-reaching implications), and I am contrasting this with romances in the films - Original and Prequel Trilogies - in which romance did play a very huge part, contrary to your claim because you don't see Star Wars as a romance. Illustrating that this stink is about "alternate relationships", not relationships in general.

if you were to briefly tell what Star wars the original movies were about,
You'd be oversimplifying them.

Star Wars as the Skywalker Saga is a Space Opera. It's going to have a lot of elements, romance clearly included. As a Franchise (bigger than the Skywalker Saga and certainly bigger than the Original Trilogy) Star Wars is many genres and many mediums. There will be romance, war, aliens and droids, space wizards and soldiers. It is Comedy and Tragedy (of Darth Plagueis), serious and ridiculous.

----------------------------------------

Oh boy.

Curiously Wakanda characters are all black. There is no discrimination issue there.
Imagine, all the people from a secretive, isolated, colonization resisting African nation are black.

I was bewildered in this horrible Amazon series on the Rings when an elf protagonist was cast as African American. That was ridiculous.
No, it really wasn't. In fact in The Hobbit there is mention of Wood Elves, Sea Elves, Deep Elves, and the Light Elves that would become the Vanyar. Thranduil himself was portrayed as green in the Rankin/Bass The Hobbit rendition. The fact is there are many kinds of Elves, and nothing that says they cannot be of a darker pigment.

Sundering_of_the_Elves.png



In Tolkien lore elves awoke before the sun was made, and since the light of Elbereth resides in them ( the same light that made the sun) they do not need skin pigments as sun blockers.
That's not how things work in Middle Earth lol...

And you do not get middle aged elves as they, ahem, do not grow old.
They certainly do, they just age much slower. While they are under the dome of Valinor, they age at a rate of 1:144; One Valian Year to One-hundred and fourty-four Middle Earth Years. Upon Middle Earth, that hastens to 1:10.

For example Galadriel is shown young and Celebrimbor middle aged when the latter is her brothers grandson!!
And has been on Middle Earth longer than her. Galadriel is young in the show and in the timeline.

As told in The History of Middle Earth, Volume X, Morgoth's Ring, Galadriel was born in the year 1362 of the Years of the Trees, during the First Age of Arda. At the close of the Years of the Trees, 1500 YT, Galadriel was only 138.

The First Age of Middle Earth begins in 1050 YT, when Galadriel was not yet born. It only lasted 590 years; by it's close Galadriel was 278.

She is referenced directly on page 148 of The Nature of Middle-Earth:

"Galadriel was born in Aman: "young and eager" at the beginning of the Exile; not yet full-grown: say 20. The March [back to Middle-earth] took a whole life-year of the survivors at whatever rate they were living, sc. to the young [but] "grown" it added 1 growth-year (3 löar); to the older and full-grown 1 life-year (144 löar). Therefore Galadriel was 21 when she reached Middle-earth. She became full-grown therefore (24) in 9 löar after arrival. By the end of the First Age - the overthrow of Thangorodrim and the ruin of Beleriand - she had added 600-9LY/144 = approximately 4 LY. She was thus about 28 (or in mortal equivalent aged 21)."

Galadriel was not "mature" at the Exile, she was young. At her entry to Beleriand, she then began to live at a rate of 100:1 (page 77). Meaning that for every 100 Middle-earth years, they only age 1 year. In the Third Age, this moved up to 10:1.

The Second Age of Middle Earth begins, and Galadriel is 278-279. Using the dates as given in the Appendixes, and centering on the reconstruction of the Barad-dûr in the year 1000 of the Second Age, Galadriel was then 1,278.

Now, as noted in The Nature of Middle-Earth by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Carl F. Hostetter, Elves reach "Full Growth" at 72 years old (comparable to 18), comparable to a 19 year old human at 216 years old, and endure 6,912 "Years of Youth" until they are considered in their full maturity at the age of 6,984.

When Sauron was defeated at the close of the Second Age, Galadriel was 3,719. When the Fellowship encountered her in Lothlórien in the year 3019 TA, Galadriel was 6,738 - almost at full maturity, yet still wise beyond the ages of men.

Returning to her age as seen in The Rings of Power, Galadriel is far from mature. Given the rate of ageing (144 löar to 1 human year), at 1,278 she is comparable to a 26 year old human. Far from elderly and wise.

Why would dwarves have Irish accent by the way?
Why not?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
One can still tell if it's good or bad even if it's a genre they don't care for.

I think you're overestimating the ability folks to be discerning critics of the fine arts by quite some margin. There's a huge difference between jane schmane's ability to assess the arts and someone who has at least a bachelor's level understanding of art critique.
 
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