Woman hits man on bus - watch video and decide....

[Badran]

I was clarifying, I thought I read from you something like "and IF you are not sad from him" or some other thing that I read as if you were not sure ony stance regarding it. So, was just making clear, sorry if I read wrong.

That's okay.

I dont ignore this. I am going to assume its true, I havent looked into it.

I just dont understand how this changes this specifically. I can see how it can make her more afraid, that I can see.

What I dont see is in what way does that make any difference in her having been physically able (for as much as we can see in the video) to go back while mantaining her guard and continuing her uproar. Thus, she keeps the scandal and keeps her stance against her issue. She keeps herself protected by looking at the assaulter as she backs away and keeping the umbrella up, ready to smack at any approach from him.

Well, that's what i tried to explain in this post.

If that doesn't address it then nothing will, and there'd be little left to debate.

 

[Willamena]

...was she overreacting, or was she justified?

I think that depends on the culture where this happened, and on her personal situation.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I think that depends on the culture where this happened, and on her personal situation.

Culture nothing... Would you let it slide if some guy felt you up on a bus?

 

[Me Myself]

That's okay.



Well, that's what i tried to explain in this post.

If that doesn't address it then nothing will, and there'd be little left to debate.

Well I think in short our disagreement may be that for what I see there, she used more violence than needed for both getting out and for making her stance.

We both understand that she was (extremely likely to be) under extreme stress whether this is because of past experiences of her, others or both and that this is part of what influenced her actions.

I dont think this changes the morality of the situation in the sense that given that I dont see any reason for her having needed to do the full extent of what she did for either the stance or her protection, her excess violence was still, well, an excess.

The only thing that that tells me is that if she would have acted a bit differently without such a surge of emotion, then she may not have the willpower needed to act the way she would have without such emotions.

Then again, most of us dont, and as said I dont find the damage to be particularly worrying.

Its more of an ideal. As a "justifiable" I must say no, given the current information on the subject.

As an understandable? Sure. As in better than cowing? 300% and without a doubt. If her brain could only process doing all of that or cowing (
I dont say this as a derogatory, I think part of the reason I didnt do anything when I was having problems in school was because I could have either gone nuts or done nothing, and at the moment, I preferred doing nothing.) doing all of that is without question the best course of action.


Its just that for me it is important to understand that it is not necessarily an either or scenario, and that if you do feel emotionally able to rise to the best of circumstances, it is best that you recognize it as such.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think that depends on the culture where this happened, and on her personal situation.

Sexual assault is wrong, regardless of culture.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't see why anyone would say she went too far, that she should have stopped earlier.

-Taking for granted that the video is genuine rather than staged, to discuss the scene itself rather than about its context, she was being sexually assaulted by a stranger! She doesn't know how many people this guy might have with him, or to what extent her safety is at risk.

-The more of a scene she makes, the better. Who knows how many times he has done this before. If a perv keeps doing it without consequences, or does it with very minimal consequences like someone pushing him back once, why stop doing it? Now, next time he is thinking about doing this, he'll think about the possibility of getting repeatedly slapped around with an umbrella and yelled at in front of a bus of people for being a perv. And imo, that's not a big enough consequence.

 

[Badran]

Well I think in short our disagreement may be that for what I see there, she used more violence than needed for both getting out and for making her stance.

Our disagreement in short is:

1) You don't think it's okay for her to punish him in any sense (revenge, make a stand or anything else) using violence; rather only make herself safe and that's it, while i don't.

2) You don't think her most likely experience based on culture and the level of danger she perceives changes things, while i do.

3) You don't think what she did was an effective way of making herself safe, while i do.

4) You think that being happy for her and justifying what she did is wrong and a very dangerous mindset, while i think that misplaced high moral grounds in situations like this are very disturbing, and dangerous.

That's it, essentially.

 

[Me Myself]

Our disagreement in short is:

1) You don't think it's okay for her to punish him in any sense (revenge, make a stand or anything else) using violence; rather only make herself safe and that's it, while i don't.

2) You don't think her most likely experience based on culture and the level of danger she perceives changes things, while i do.

3) You don't think what she did was an effective way of making herself safe, while i do.

4) You think that being happy for her and justifying what she did is wrong and a very dangerous mindset, while i think that misplaced high moral grounds in situations like this are very disturbing, and dangerous.

That's it, essentially.

Oh no, being happy for her being safe is good and for her not having been cowed is good too. I think what she did could have been more effective on making herself be safe (she amplified change for revenge but in ngeneral it is unlikely) but what she did was better than doing nothing which I will assume is the common stance there.

We both know her percieved level of danger changes her emotions, but my understanding is that you think someone on some emotional states can be morally justified to do certain things she wouldnt be morally justified to do if not on such states.

I dont think so.

You keep yourself safe and get out of there. Violence to stip assault, then take soace and raise scandal to keep oneself safe.

Thats the idially best scenario for a victim in such a situation. Had she been alone in a dark alley, all chips are off and the guy "diserves" whatever he gets form her as she makes herself safe by any means necessary.

 

[Me Myself]

I don't see why anyone would say she went too far, that she should have stopped earlier.

-Taking for granted that the video is genuine rather than staged, to discuss the scene itself rather than about its context, she was being sexually assaulted by a stranger! She doesn't know how many people this guy might have with him, or to what extent her safety is at risk.

-The more of a scene she makes, the better. Who knows how many times he has done this before. If a perv keeps doing it without consequences, or does it with very minimal consequences like someone pushing him back once, why stop doing it? Now, next time he is thinking about doing this, he'll think about the possibility of getting repeatedly slapped around with an umbrella and yelled at in front of a bus of people for being a perv. And imo, that's not a big enough consequence.

The scene protects her better than blows. If the guy has as much as two other guys with him its extremely easy to take the umbrella off her and do whatever they want, providing no one in the bus is willing to do anything about it. If they have a gun, again, her umbrella is nothing.

For exame, notice e guy at her oeft at second 37 ? Had he been with assaulter and wanting to subdue her, a knife or even just grabbing the umbrella would have done given the original assaulter comes to help because SHE ALLOWED HERSELF TO BE SURROUNDED by going in forth with her attack. Had she gone back while still keeping e guys on focus, she wouldnt have allowed such a thing. It was silly to keep attacking, an unecessary risk for no reasonable gain.

What protected her was the scene, she did a good job yelling and bringing attention to the assaulter who you can see was then on extremely weary to not looking like an assaulter.

Thinking he will stop doing this because he got hit a pair of times with an umbrella is just not realistic.

 

[Badran]

Oh no, being happy for her being safe is good and for her not having been cowed is good too.

Good.

I think what she did could have been more effective on making herself be safe (she amplified change for revenge but in ngeneral it is unlikely)

You keep yourself safe and get out of there. Violence to stip assault, then take soace and raise scandal to keep oneself safe.

1) I disagree, i think she was pretty effective, and have seen that method work very well in other similar cases as i already explained more than once.

2) That assumes that she necessarily only has one goal, to be safe. Which, as i explained, is not necessarily the case.

but what she did was better than doing nothing which I will assume is the common stance there.

Yup.

We both know her percieved level of danger changes her emotions, but my understanding is that you think someone on some emotional states can be morally justified to do certain things she wouldnt be morally justified to do if not on such states.

I dont think so.

What i was saying is that context and someone's emotions and motivations are always relevant to any sort of meaningful moral judgement. To ignore why she's doing what she's doing (what emotions are there and why are they there in the first place) and make a moral judgement anyway is to have very well offered nothing of value.

Thats the idially best scenario for a victim in such a situation.

No, it's not.

There are multiple effective methods, and the aim of which method is used should be put in mind, as i mentioned countless times.

 

[Penumbra]

The scene protects her better than blows. If the guy has as much as two other guys with him its extremely easy to take the umbrella off her and do whatever they want, providing no one in the bus is willing to do anything about it. If they have a gun, again, her umbrella is nothing.

For exame, notice e guy at her oeft at second 37 ? Had he been with assaulter and wanting to subdue her, a knife or even just grabbing the umbrella would have done given the original assaulter comes to help because SHE ALLOWED HERSELF TO BE SURROUNDED by going in forth with her attack. Had she gone back while still keeping e guys on focus, she wouldnt have allowed such a thing. It was silly to keep attacking, an unecessary risk for no reasonable gain.

What protected her was the scene, she did a good job yelling and bringing attention to the assaulter who you can see was then on extremely weary to not looking like an assaulter.

If she had not continued attacking, all of the stuff you said here could have happened too. Predators generally want easy victims, not victims that scream and hit back, drawing attention to themselves and risking injuries like scratched eyes and nut kicks and other unpleasant things. She already made it clear to him that she didn't want to be touched and he didn't care; if her reaction was not strong enough he may simply have continued what he was doing to her.

Thinking he will stop doing this because he got hit a pair of times with an umbrella is just not realistic.

You don't know that. He just got slapped upside the head and yelled at for being a little perv in front of a lot of people. Besides, you're forming an inconsistent position for yourself here by simultaneously trying to say that she was too violent, went too far, while also apparently saying it's so minor to him that it wasn't even a deterrent.

Personally, I probably would have gone farther than she did.

 

[DallasApple]

Culture nothing... Would you let it slide if some guy felt you up on a bus?

I have.But not on a bus.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The scene protects her better than blows. If the guy has as much as two other guys with him its extremely easy to take the umbrella off her and do whatever they want, providing no one in the bus is willing to do anything about it. If they have a gun, again, her umbrella is nothing.
For exame, notice e guy at her oeft at second 37 ? Had he been with assaulter and wanting to subdue her, a knife or even just grabbing the umbrella would have done given the original assaulter comes to help because SHE ALLOWED HERSELF TO BE SURROUNDED by going in forth with her attack. Had she gone back while still keeping e guys on focus, she wouldnt have allowed such a thing. It was silly to keep attacking, an unecessary risk for no reasonable gain.

So staying in her seat and doing nothing would have prevented all of that from happening? ... If a group of guys was going to jump her, it would have happened anyway.

What protected her was the scene, she did a good job yelling and bringing attention to the assaulter who you can see was then on extremely weary to not looking like an assaulter.

Because he was getting the **** beat out of him with an umbrella lol

Thinking he will stop doing this because he got hit a pair of times with an umbrella is just not realistic.

Not too long ago he was being "beat to a pulp", and was a victim of "excessive violence"... Now he's just getting a couple love taps with an umbrella. Why the sudden change of heart?

 

[Me Myself]

If she had not continued attacking, all of the stuff you said here could have happened too. Predators generally want easy victims, not victims that scream and hit back, drawing attention to themselves and risking injuries like scratched eyes and nut kicks and other unpleasant things. She already made it clear to him that she didn't want to be touched and he didn't care; if her reaction was not strong enough he may simply have continued what he was doing to her.

You don't know that. He just got slapped upside the head and yelled at for being a little perv in front of a lot of people. Besides, you're forming an inconsistent position for yourself here by simultaneously trying to say that she was too violent, went too far, while also apparently saying it's so minor to him that it wasn't even a deterrent.

Personally, I probably would have gone farther than she did.

In any time that you use more force than is needed you go to far.

I already said it, I am not saying she shouldnt have screamed. You said it yourself, she hit BACK and made a SCANDAL, with that, he is extremely unlikely to try anytng else. If he were to try anything else after that a persisting citim is extremely unlikely to deterr him to do more. He had more than enough opportunity to try take the umbrella away from her. You can see that in the video.

Look at it. By after second 36 do you honestly think he would have attacked if she backed out while still yelling and having the umbrella raised against him? Because if he was then he has the lowest reaction time I have ever seen. You look at him "reasoning" out with her instead of taking the umbrella out. He does this several times after being hit.

The scandal and the initial physical shock was the real shield all else was unnecessary and put her at risk.

Again, when she came forward you can notice how the guy at her right could have easily forced the umbrella out of her and then when the other one came back it was two against one in a extremely close quarters brawl that wont allow umbrella range to do much good.

Te scandal up to 36 seconds shielded her, all she did after that was put herself in higher risk after she was almost out.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I have.But not on a bus.

Was it a creepy Indian guy that you didn't want touching you?

 

[DallasApple]

A BUS!


Police: 7 men gang rape bus passenger in India - CNN.com

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

A BUS!


Police: 7 men gang rape bus passenger in India - CNN.com

All the more reason to hit some creep with an umbrella. Nobody likes a difficult target.

 

[Penumbra]

In any time that you use more force than is needed you go to far.

As much force as needed for what, though?

As much as is needed to defend oneself from the immediate situation? As much force as is needed to give the man a consequence that will make him think twice the next time he considers it?

Personally, I'd make sure to cover both.

I already said it, I am not saying she shouldnt have screamed. You said it yourself, she hit BACK and made a SCANDAL, with that, he is extremely unlikely to try anytng else. If he were to try anything else after that a persisting citim is extremely unlikely to deterr him to do more. He had more than enough opportunity to try take the umbrella away from her. You can see that in the video.

Look at it. By after second 36 do you honestly think he would have attacked if she backed out while still yelling and having the umbrella raised against him? Because if he was then he has the lowest reaction time I have ever seen. You look at him "reasoning" out with her instead of taking the umbrella out. He does this several times after being hit.

The scandal and the initial physical shock was the real shield all else was unnecessary and put her at risk.

Again, when she came forward you can notice how the guy at her right could have easily forced the umbrella out of her and then when the other one came back it was two against one in a extremely close quarters brawl that wont allow umbrella range to do much good.

Te scandal up to 36 seconds shielded her, all she did after that was put herself in higher risk after she was almost out.

Almost out of what? She's trying to go to where she's trying to go on the bus, so ideally she shouldn't have to leave. By standing up, she has a better exit path than when sitting down at least. She's not a secret agent here analyzing every viable escape route; she's hitting a perv back who repeatedly touched her despite her more passive objections. If there were several men here willing to assault her back then regardless of what she had done they probably could have accomplished it until other passengers intervened, although they would have been putting their eyes and fertility at risk.

And you haven't answered what I pointed out about the inconsistency of your position that it was too violent, too far, and yet weak and harmless enough to be inadequate for deterrence.

 

[Me Myself]

As much force as needed for what, though?

As much as is needed to defend oneself from the immediate situation? As much force as is needed to give the man a consequence that will make him think twice the next time he considers it?

Personally, I'd make sure to cover both.

Almost out of what? She's trying to go to where she's trying to go on the bus, so ideally she shouldn't have to leave. By standing up, she has a better exit path than when sitting down at least. She's not a secret agent here analyzing every viable escape route; she's hitting a perv back who repeatedly touched her despite her more passive objections. If there were several men here willing to assault her back then regardless of what she had done they probably could have accomplished it until other passengers intervened, although they would have been putting their eyes and fertility at risk.

And you haven't answered what I pointed out about the inconsistency of your position that it was too violent, too far, and yet weak and harmless enough to be inadequate for deterrence.

I didnt directly answered it, but .i thought you would have seen the points adressed. Any violence beyond what is necessary is too much violence. Thinking the guy wont try that again because you hit him is a moot goal, if he was truly afraid of the umbrella he could have taken it our of her hand. He didnt because what he was truly afraid of was exposure to public attention.

So it was too far because it used unnecessary violence. Unless she was planning on stabbing him and probably even if she had stabbed him, it is just extremely unoikely he would stop doing that from then on. He surely wont ever do that to her again if she looks at her again. That part is reasonably likely.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Before you said her force was not excessive because she didnt know if the guy had allies there, now you recognise if he had allies she had no chance ( and so, escape would have been the smart thing to do) .

So hitting extra because maybe he has allies makes no sense. If he has allies you hit as she did so he gives her space to stand up and then go out of his reach while mantaining the unbrella up. They would have to follow up in a row to get to her and that is easier than getting deeper into the back of the bus so you can hit a couple of extra hits and they can surround you and take the umbrella from you if they truly feel endangered.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It's a lady hitting a pervert with an umbrella, not a brutal stabbing during a Colombian drug war... Stop hyping up the intensity of the situation... The guy deserved what he got, and he's lucky it wasn't worse. There's no need to defend a pervert that wasn't even seriously injured.