Women need to start boycotting sports

[Augustus]

The fact that it is similar to doping controls is what makes the IBA rules unethical

Why is it unethical to check if people are getting an unfair advantage?

I’d say it’s more unethical to put people at greater risk of death or life changing injury than to test people to see if they are eligible for the female category.

But ethics is always subjective.

 

[We Never Know]

I understand that the IOC uses legal gender rather than sex as the test of eligibility.

They favour inclusion over safety and fairness. There is no balancing act between these.

They should just be open and honest about the fact they are accepting increased risks by allowing competitors who have undergone male puberty.

As I said on another thread. She supposedly has 46, XY DSD, was assigned female at birth and raised female.

However...Does she do female hormone replacement therapy?

"Some individuals with 46, XY DSD have fully to underdeveloped female reproductive organs (e.g., uterus and fallopian tubes), while others do not.[5580] People with with 46, XY DSD may be raised as males or females. Treatment involves surgery and hormone replacement therapy."

List of Rare Diseases | A-Z Database | NORD

Rare Diseases Archive - National Organization for Rare Disorders

rarediseases.org

 

[GoodAttention]

Why is it unethical to check if people are getting an unfair advantage?

I consider it presumptive that a person with XY chromosomes will always have an unfair advantage over a person with XX chromosomes.

I’d say it’s more unethical to put people at greater risk of death or life changing injury than to test people to see if they are eligible for the female category.

You would ideally quantify the risk before coming to that conclusion.

But ethics is always subjective.

Yes, although the needs of the many tends to take primacy.

 

[F1fan]

In looking up this story I found that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif who also competed the Tokyo Olympics is not trans and is not intersexed. There are unsubstantiated reports of Khelif having a Y chromosome but they remain unsubstantiated. She is a she. She was assigned female at birth, she has internal and external female reproductive organs. Conservative media is doing what it does best, fear mongering and being lets say less than honest about the situation

Yeah, I've avoided this whole topic because there is so much right wing disinformation going around. And we know the right wing hates trans people, and they will exploit anything to make their prejudice known.

The thing about sports and being an athlete is that it is not really fair no matter how anyone looks at it. I'm a bike racer and have been one for 40 years. I've won quite a few races in my day, and won state championships. But I know there is no way I can compete on a national level, and especially not on an international level. I just wasn't born with the genetic infrastructure that others are born with. Bike racers who reach the top level have a genetic advantage, and that's just the way it goes. It's the case with many sports. For many athletes there is no amount of training that will get them to a high level of competition.

So the case of the Algerian boxer, well that is a case of there being a genetic advabntage that also isn't against the rules.

The rules in USA Cycling is that women who have reached a certain category (Category 1 or 2) can race with men. I've been in quite a few races where women were signed up. One of my friends is Lynn Wilson and she won the Woman's Masters 50-54 National Criterium Championship this past weekend. I've raced with her numerous times, and she has kicked my ***. Most athletes have a tolerant view of competition, and there's a spirit of doing our best on race day. We aren't machines and we have good days and bad days. In the end we are happy to have done our best and take away a great memory.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, I feel sorry for Imane Khelif myself, in many ways.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah, I've avoided this whole topic because there is so much right wing disinformation going around. And we know the right wing hates trans people, and they will exploit anything to make their prejudice known.

Phew! It's good to know that it's only "right wing" disinformation!

The rules in USA Cycling is that women who have reached a certain category (Category 1 or 2) can race with men. I've been in quite a few races where women were signed up. One of my friends is Lynn Wilson and she won the Woman's Masters 50-54 National Criterium Championship this past weekend. I've raced with her numerous times, and she has kicked my ***. Most athletes have a tolerant view of competition, and there's a spirit of doing our best on race day. We aren't machines and we have good days and bad days. In the end we are happy to have done our best and take away a great memory.

Warning, unfortunate pun alert:

In general society is fine when a person decides to "punch up", e.g. when a woman decides to compete in a men's sporting event, and in general we abhor when a person decides to "punch down" - we would be outraged if a college athlete decided to play on a little league team.

 

[Augustus]

I consider it presumptive that a person with XY chromosomes will always have an unfair advantage over a person with XX chromosomes.

Maybe not, but all of those who have undergone male puberty will.

You would ideally quantify the risk before coming to that conclusion.

The risks in boxing are significant. That is not in any doubt.

On average those who have undergone male puberty punch significantly harder. 162% according to some studies.

Women have less punch resistance as they pound for pound have less muscle strength.

The harder you get hit the greater the chance of injury., especially if you have less resistance.

It’s not uncommon for people to die or suffer life changing injuries in boxing.

This is why there are so many weight classes.

What is an acceptable level of risk in your opinion? How would you quantify the risk?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then you are not looking very hard. A google search easily turns up multiple sources. Here are a few:

IBA President Umar Krevlev told Russian state media that it was “proven they have XY chromosomes”

https://www.npr.org/2024/08/02/nx-s1-5061280/olympic-womens-boxing-gender-imane-khelif-lin-yuting#:~:text=The%20IBA%20said%20in%20a,the%20XX%20genotype%20of%20women.

Khelif reportedly has differences of sexual development, known as DSDs, the organizations said in a Fact Sheet released Friday.

Fact check on Algerian fighter Imane Khelif, DSDs, biology and Olympic boxing

At the Paris Olympics, Algerian boxer Imane Khelif has become a target for right-wing activists falsely labeling Khelif as transgender.

www.usatoday.com

The biological profile of Khelif depicts a complex scenario. She has differences of sex development (DSD), a condition where she was born a woman and identifies as such. Her increased testosterone levels and XY chromosomes—characteristics commonly associated with male athletes—are the outcome of this disorder.

Gender Controversy at Olympics: What happened? Who is Imane Khelif? Row explained - 'Disqualified' boxer wins Olympic match

The biological profile of Khelif depicts a complex scenario. She has differences of sex development (DSD), a condition where she was born a woman and identifies as such. Her increased testosterone levels and XY chromosomes—characteristics commonly associated with male athletes—are the outcome of...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

From your first source.

Olympic organizers are defending their right to compete in Paris and questioning the validity of those unspecified tests and the fairness of their previous disqualification, which they said happened without due process.


“The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure — especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years,” the International Olympic Committee said in a statement Thursday.

That's in response to the IBA banning her, something that happened after she beat a Russian, and the IBA is Russian itself.
Also note the IBA has not actually disclosed the who, what, where, when, why or how of the tests. They just happened and they stand by their decision (that was provided by someone else, one if the many articles I have read about this). Amd it's not like she's undefeated. She's been beaten many times.
It brings to mind all the times I've said anti-MtF trans rhetoric is really just misogyny in a different wrapper, amd why laymen without education and experts with an incomplete picture shouldn't be making these calls and decisions.
Amd its saddening that even after all this stuff that didn't happen is making a controversy people still aren't backing down in their insistence white is black and up and down. I'm curious what the next thing to not happen will **** off those who are showing themselves happy and eager to take offense. Whatever it is, we can assured they are wrong, it didn't happen, they will double down on it because 2+2=5 when you're dealing with those who are eager to hate everyone not like them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Again, if she has XY chromosomes, she is not a cis woman. A cis woman has three things all lined up as female: chromosomes, genitalia and secondary sex characteristics, and brain wiring. She doesn't fit the bill.

She is intersexed. Not everyone fits neatly into the two usual boxes.

She was born a female, she identifies as a woman, she has not been shown to be intersexed, she is a cis-woman.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I consider it presumptive that a person with XY chromosomes will always have an unfair advantage over a person with XX chromosomes.

Except the woman in question has been beaten many times.
Seems to me a misogynist world just cannot stand the idea of a woman who is a skilled fighter and has a reputation for being a hard hitter (it occasionally happens in men's combat sports as well). But it's not like she's unbeatable. Doesn't matter. She's nit feminine amd womanly enough so shes a man and she's not a real, regular woman.

 

[Augustus]

 

[Estro Felino]

Why is it unethical to check if people are getting an unfair advantage?

I’d say it’s more unethical to put people at greater risk of death or life changing injury than to test people to see if they are eligible for the female category.

But ethics is always subjective.

All these extenuating controversies would terminate, if they had showed her genetic test.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

All these extenuating controversies would terminate, if they had showed her genetic test.

Do they have a right to do so?
You are a laywer so you should know to ask such questions.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do they have a right to do so?
You are a laywer so you should know to ask such questions.

Of course.
Because it's about fairness. It's about a fair competition.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of course.
Because it's about fairness. It's about a fair competition.

So in which (international) law is that found?

 

[We Never Know]

View attachment 95143

Yeah. The guy screwed up by confusing the two.

IOC puts out correction after president Thomas Bach confuses gender issues | Paris Olympic Games 2024 | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Estro Felino]

So in which (international) law is that found?

In none.
I couldn't care less about the Olympics. I am not into sports.
I just think that it is fair two people compete against each other on equal terms.

I didn't see any equality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In none.
I couldn't care less about the Olympics. I am not into sports.
I just think that it is fair two people compete against each other on equal terms.

I didn't see any equality.

So you don't care if it is legal or violate her rights? Is that it?

 

[Estro Felino]

So you don't care if it is legal or violate her rights? Is that it?

I meant: if someone wants to keep something secret, it's normal that people will gossip.
No secrets, no gossiping.
You can't have the cake and eat it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I meant: if someone wants to keep something secret, it's normal that people will gossip.
No secrets, no gossiping.
You can't have the cake and eat it.

So you don't care about her rights if relevant.