Would you buy it?

[painted wolf]

What makes you choose your beliefs rather than any other irrational belief?

Who said that was my only irrational belief?
I realize it's irrational to get angry at my computer, but I do. Humans are irrational beings, we are scared of the dark, safe in our own homes... we aren't afraid of creeping ecological degradation.

We are products of our evolutionary heritage.

Believing irrationally is to believe without justification or rational process, what's the difference between that an flipping a coin or tossing a dart to choose what to believe?

Culture mostly.
But I also think part of it is how you define irrationality.

Is it just that your belief contains things that you personally like, in which case you believe not because you think it's true but because it's what you like?

I'm sure that is some of it... we are all drawn to what "feels right" to us. But I like a lot of things I don't believe in... I like atheists and the ideals of atheist/secular humanist philosophy... but I can't make myself an atheist. (it can be rather frustrating)

Just trying to understand.

No problem... ideally that is what we are all trying to do here.

wa:do

 

[Reptillian]

Perhaps now is a good time for a Futurama quote relevant to this discussion..

Robot Villager - With all your modern science, are you any closer to understanding the mysteries of how a robot walks and talks?

The Professor - Yes you idiot! The circuit diagram is right here on the inside of your case.

Robot Villager - I choose to believe what I was programmed to believe!

 

[Walkntune]

What makes you choose your beliefs rather than any other irrational belief?

Believing irrationally is to believe without justification or rational process, what's the difference between that an flipping a coin or tossing a dart to choose what to believe?

Is it just that your belief contains things that you personally like, in which case you believe not because you think it's true but because it's what you like?

Just trying to understand.

I think the difference for many is what actually works. I have seen and experienced so many people who have completely done 180 degree turn with there life. I have seen people lay down drug addictions like it was nothing.I have seen people drop depression and anxiety disorders even when docs would tell them they may be on meds for life.I have seen people on the street become successful.
I experience first hand things I desire manifesting themselves in reality.
I might want to buy something and I will just pray about it and let it go and sometime later someone will give me what I was desiring. This happens a lot to me.
I bet there are a lot of different religious people on here who can relate to this.
There is something about a spiritual person that you can just sense a strong presence and aura.They have a joy and peace that surpasses all understanding.
For me this is enough justification.

 

[Meow Mix]

I think the difference for many is what actually works. I have seen and experienced so many people who have completely done 180 degree turn with there life. I have seen people lay down drug addictions like it was nothing.I have seen people drop depression and anxiety disorders even when docs would tell them they may be on meds for life.I have seen people on the street become successful.
I experience first hand things I desire manifesting themselves in reality.
I might want to buy something and I will just pray about it and let it go and sometime later someone will give me what I was desiring. This happens a lot to me.
I bet there are a lot of different religious people on here who can relate to this.
There is something about a spiritual person that you can just sense a strong presence and aura.They have a joy and peace that surpasses all understanding.
For me this is enough justification.

On what basis do you say your god exists and other peopel's gods are not existent or they misinterpret god?

Why do you believe you'll live forever if other people believe (by the same irrational mechanisms) that they will instead just be reincarnated or something?

Why don't you believe with all your heart that you will win the lottery some day and pour all your money into it? what's the difference between irrationally beleiving you will DEFINITELY win the lottery and believing that there is DEFINITELY life after death?

I just don't understand... I value reason, I don't hold beliefs that are not reasonable, so I'm trying to take a different mindframe if even just hypothetically here but I just don't get it, my reason keeps saying "but that doesn't make any sense!"

Any way to help me out here?

This goes back to the box: why not believe in the box? If you believe in your god just because it "works for you" then is belief in my made-up box silly? Should people not invest money in the box that I'm selling? If not, why not?

 

[Willamena]

This isn't the epistemic context of the word "justification," which is the one I am asking for. I should perhaps have been more clear. Justification in epistemology is that which gives a belief warrant to believe rationally.

But that is what I'm talking about. Words that some other person hands you do not give warrant to anything. That which gives a belief warrant is inside of you, inside each of us.

 

[gzusfrk]

A company is selling a box with wonderful attributes. After all, it explains why evil exists and how the world was created. Furthermore it grants you eternal life. Sometimes if you ask it for things then it will happen for you, other times it won't (the box is temperamental, or has a higher purpose that it doesn't want your wishes to inferfere with sometimes). Many people who've purchased the box have had good things happen to them and many gained a lot of self-confidence to drop drugs and other things like that. In fact, there were a few people who had their cancer go into remission inexplicably after purchasing the box! There are even reports of people hearing the magic in the box. One time, there was a cloud that looked exactly like the box -- logo and everything.

The catch is, though, that you can never look inside it while you're alive; or scan or probe it. Also the box is $1,000 USD.

Sorry, you get most of the benefits of the box after you both purchase the box and then die (don't worry, eternity and all those answers are waiting for you inside the box right?)

So, who here would buy the box? Surely $1,000 and taking some time to whisper desires and thankfulness to it as well as taking the time to indoctrinate the children towards getting their own boxes* is worth the time, right?

(* - you DO want them to live forever right?)

If not, why not?

I think it's incredibly obvious what I'm getting at here.

Edit: Also the box still works even if it's physically destroyed because you live eternally inside the spiritual box. So, nobody can point to the fact that some of the boxes will decay after a person's death and use that as evidence that the box's claims of immortality are false.

Yes I think its obvious what your getting at, there's been 1.5 billion already sold.

 

[Walkntune]

=Meow Mix;2196072]On what basis do you say your god exists and other peopel's gods are not existent or they misinterpret god?

I don't put God in a box! Ironic I know, LOL
I don't limit Him to just my understanding and interpretation. I have seen some muslums ,darma religions,all different spiritualities and have been able to relate in one form or another.I don't read the Bible literally but I take it as revelation knowledge.

Why do you believe you'll live forever if other people believe (by the same irrational mechanisms) that they will instead just be reincarnated or something?

I have thought about this deeply and the only conclusion I can come up with is
Energy is never created or destroyed and we are conscious energy in a body.It seems most have an intuitive feeling or instinc of eternity of some sort and all though those opinions are different in a sense they both have the ongoing process of energy never dying in common.

Why don't you believe with all your heart that you will win the lottery some day and pour all your money into it? what's the difference between irrationally beleiving you will DEFINITELY win the lottery and believing that there is DEFINITELY life after death?

I believe its what we hold on to consciously that sinks us.It is also what dictates our actions. I have and am still learning that happiness is not in materialism but just a choice of being.We can hold onto or let thoughts and feelings go as we choose.
I am happy with my guitar on the front porch and just enjoying a simple life.We create our own separations from happiness by wants and desires and place happiness off in the future.If I have this house or car or whatever. I enjoy a richness that can't be bought but only because my eyes have been opened but I am still a work in progress and have a long ways to go.God is giving me the desires of my heart, not my flesh or ego.

I just don't understand... I value reason, I don't hold beliefs that are not reasonable, so I'm trying to take a different mindframe if even just hypothetically here but I just don't get it, my reason keeps saying "but that doesn't make any sense!"

Any way to help me out here?

Its kind of like sitting on the bank and trying to figure out if the water is cold.You just have to get in to know.
It works despite our reasoning. It doesn't make sense but it works.
Maybe get a book called the Sedona Method.
I think is a great book for atheist or those struggling with beleif in God or Spirituality.
It does not rely on faith or belief but is about releasing emotions.It makes very good reasoning sense also and gets you in touch with your true self underneath ego which we all have.You will see things change and it will blow your mind.

This goes back to the box: why not believe in the box? If you believe in your god just because it "works for you" then is belief in my made-up box silly? Should people not invest money in the box that I'm selling? If not, why not?

I am not so sure I would under estimate the power of belief. It is the power in the placebo.

 

[Gloone]

Yes, what is it based on then? What justifies theism?

Because every time I ask it, theists respond with red herrings and beat around the bush. I'd be hesitant to point out that you've participated in this as well at the risk of sounding rude, but it does appear that way to me.

"Need I say more?" Obviously, since I keep asking and never get a response that isn't a red herring or ignoratio elenchi or some other fallacy.

Please, I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just asking again: PLEASE try to avoid red herrings and the like, and PLEASE just answer the question straightforwardly; what is the justification for theism then?

If it's not based on superstition then what rational thing is it based on?

I was actually expecting an intelligent conversation with you. But it doesn’t look like that is going to happen. You ask too many questions and don’t add much to the conversation. I thought you might have known a little more about religion, but I guess you don’t. Also, do you mind repeating yourself? I had a hard time making all of that gibberish out.

 

[Meow Mix]

But that is what I'm talking about. Words that some other person hands you do not give warrant to anything. That which gives a belief warrant is inside of you, inside each of us.

I disagree, words provide warrant all the time. Do you deny that atoms exist? Do you suppose that your (I'm assuming) rational belief that atoms exist came about by your own direct experimentation in chemistry, or have you read about the justifications for atomic theory in text books?

You, who have (I'm assuming) never directly justified the existence of atoms, can still rationally justify their existence through argument -- argument which you learned through words. The reason you were able to learn the argument is because it wasn't fallacious; because it was testable if you ever had the desire to test it, and because it gave you warrant to indeed believe that atomic theory is true as far as humanity knows.

Do you disagree?

Likewise, suppose that you've never seen the truism that if A > B and B > C then A > C.

If someone said to you, "There are three plants in my yard. The elm is taller than the spruce and the spruce is taller than the holly bush." Could you justify the assertion that the elm is taller than the holly bush through their words alone? Indeed!

I've provided two examples of justification (empirical and metaphysical) that you could have garnered through argumentation and induction alone. So, again, I disagree with you. Warrant often comes from external sources, provided that they aren't fallacious.

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't put God in a box! Ironic I know, LOL
I don't limit Him to just my understanding and interpretation. I have seen some muslums ,darma religions,all different spiritualities and have been able to relate in one form or another.I don't read the Bible literally but I take it as revelation knowledge.

Yes you do. I bet you would disagree with the statement "God tortures people just for the sake of torturing them" and "God loves black people but hates white people." You are indeed "putting God in a box," but that isn't a bad thing. It just means that you believe God has certain attributes and doesn't have certain other attributes. Why believe those specific attributes and not the others?

Unless indeed you believe that "God tortures people for pleasure" is a possibly true statement...

I have thought about this deeply and the only conclusion I can come up with is
Energy is never created or destroyed and we are conscious energy in a body.It seems most have an intuitive feeling or instinc of eternity of some sort and all though those opinions are different in a sense they both have the ongoing process of energy never dying in common.

Energy isn't conscious; it's just the capacity to perform work (which is to move a mass over a distance). That's how energy is defined in physics. If you mean something different then please define it.

I believe its what we hold on to consciously that sinks us.It is also what dictates our actions. I have and am still learning that happiness is not in materialism but just a choice of being.We can hold onto or let thoughts and feelings go as we choose.
I am happy with my guitar on the front porch and just enjoying a simple life.We create our own separations from happiness by wants and desires and place happiness off in the future.If I have this house or car or whatever. I enjoy a richness that can't be bought but only because my eyes have been opened but I am still a work in progress and have a long ways to go.God is giving me the desires of my heart, not my flesh or ego.

I'm also happy doing certain things, but being happy doesn't justify the ontological existence of supposed things. I would be happy believing that I'll win the lottery next week; but does my happiness with that belief mean that I will necessarily win the lottery next week? Clearly there's a disconnect between desire and reality, surely you can admit this.

Its kind of like sitting on the bank and trying to figure out if the water is cold.You just have to get in to know.
It works despite our reasoning. It doesn't make sense but it works.

There's a reason the scientific method doesn't work like this, and likewise epistemology and metaphysics in general doesn't work like this either. You can't believe and then justify belief; belief must be justified before being believed. Fallible human minds perceive what they want to perceive otherwise.

Maybe get a book called the Sedona Method.
I think is a great book for atheist or those struggling with beleif in God or Spirituality.
It does not rely on faith or belief but is about releasing emotions.It makes very good reasoning sense also and gets you in touch with your true self underneath ego which we all have.You will see things change and it will blow your mind.

What do emotions have to do with reasoning...?

I am not so sure I would under estimate the power of belief. It is the power in the placebo.

I don't see how admitting many reported effects of belief to be placebos helps your case...?

 

[Walkntune]

Yes you do. I bet you would disagree with the statement "God tortures people just for the sake of torturing them" and "God loves black people but hates white people." You are indeed "putting God in a box," but that isn't a bad thing. It just means that you believe God has certain attributes and doesn't have certain other attributes. Why believe those specific attributes and not the others?
Unless indeed you believe that "God tortures people for pleasure" is a possibly true statement... se

I see you just like to argue.

Do you think human behaviour is logical? If not always and is sometimes irrational then how can everything in the universe be logical if humans are part of the universe?
What is it about behaviour that can be irrational?
Why try and fit humans in a dead emotionless logical box?

I don't see how admitting many reported effects of belief to be placebos helps your case...?

I am not looking for approval for any case. To walk in Love,joy and peace,long suffering, gentleness,goodness, faithfulness and self control is enough for me.

I'm also happy doing certain things, but being happy doesn't justify the ontological existence of supposed things. I would be happy believing that I'll win the lottery next week; but does my happiness with that belief mean that I will necessarily win the lottery next week? Clearly there's a disconnect between desire and reality, surely you can admit this.

Actually its desire that causes the disconnect to reality.We create a separation or a pain in ourselves that doesn't mend until we become one with what it is we were desiring.It causes people to have a feeling of a hole inside themselves and can lead to mental illness when desire gets to much out of hand.

What do emotions have to do with reasoning...?

Thoughts are driven by emotions which are driven by underlying wants such as the want of control, the want of approval, the want of security and the want to be separate.

 

[Thief]

All this talk about emotions in control....
What is rational and what is not.....

If your hand does anything....
It's because you thought you should....or because you felt like it.

Rational is a word that varies a great deal....one place to another.
As this is a religious forum...and God was mentioned....
What box are you sure of?

Is God's 'box' the same as yours?
Reflection of God are you?

In previous post....you are in a box...and you can't get out.
You don't know the chain that holds you to your body.
You know only for certain the chain will break.

But will you still be in your 'box' when your loved ones put you into another one?

Think you have choices to make?...really?

The mind without heart is cold and unfeeling.
The heart without mind is fickle and uncaring.

 

[Thief]

I'm not saying your faith is invalid because i don't believe.

I'm saying it is invalid because it does not stand up to the standards of proof.

Look don't get me wrong i respect your right to believe what you want. I would even fight for that right.

But until you don't have to turn off intellect and thought before you can believe, i ain't going to respect you beliefs.

-Q

And you found a flaw in my reasoning?
Do tell.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

And you found a flaw in my reasoning?
Do tell.

My keen sense of observation has noted that you think there is some kind of flaw in my reasoning.

Care to explain?

-Q

 

[Midnight Pete]

That's fine then, you are completely free to do so if you want. My requests for justification are for those who suppose that it is rational.

I do have a curiosity on why anyone would believe something irrationally though, and why they choose that thing over any other irrational thing, and why they most likely excercise reason in most other aspects of life. Do you want to talk about those questions?

No, because I dislike your hectoring tone.

 

[Willamena]

I disagree, words provide warrant all the time. Do you deny that atoms exist? Do you suppose that your (I'm assuming) rational belief that atoms exist came about by your own direct experimentation in chemistry, or have you read about the justifications for atomic theory in text books?

You, who have (I'm assuming) never directly justified the existence of atoms, can still rationally justify their existence through argument -- argument which you learned through words. The reason you were able to learn the argument is because it wasn't fallacious; because it was testable if you ever had the desire to test it, and because it gave you warrant to indeed believe that atomic theory is true as far as humanity knows.

Do you disagree?

I don't disagree, if that helps. I just paint with a different brush.

"My own direct experimentation in chemistry" would be as much words as the words I read out of a book: both give me experience/information/data. Would any of it be meaningful, useful or real without understanding it? Understanding, and its subsequent belief, is a distinct thing. My rational belief in atoms came about when I understood what was being said --that is, when I composed it in my own vocabulary. Truth and validity underlie my belief, because they underlie my vocabulary --not other's vocabulary, mine.

You can throw the firmest, most sound argument around, it won't guarantee belief, simply because belief doesn't depend on it.

Likewise, suppose that you've never seen the truism that if A > B and B > C then A > C.

If someone said to you, "There are three plants in my yard. The elm is taller than the spruce and the spruce is taller than the holly bush." Could you justify the assertion that the elm is taller than the holly bush through their words alone? Indeed!

I've provided two examples of justification (empirical and metaphysical) that you could have garnered through argumentation and induction alone. So, again, I disagree with you. Warrant often comes from external sources, provided that they aren't fallacious.

That the the elm is justly taller than the spruce, and the spruce justly taller than the bush, comes about when the same picture is deemed painted, both in information (outside) and vocabulary (inside).

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I've provided two examples of justification (empirical and metaphysical) that you could have garnered through argumentation and induction alone. So, again, I disagree with you. Warrant often comes from external sources, provided that they aren't fallacious.

And that is where the kicker is. Until you verify that the sources are not fallacious, you cannot be certain that they are giving you warrant to believe something. Until you actually prove it to yourself, the proof that others provide is meaningless.

Take your two examples.
The existence of atoms was proven by the scientific method, was it not? You, being science oriented, have used the scientific method to predict and verify hypothesizes, therefore proving to yourself that the scientific method is valid and can be used in to predict and prove things. So when someone tells you they have used the scientific method to predict and prove something, you agree with them. If you had not used the scientific method before, you would not totally agree with them. You may take them for their word, but until you have used it yourself, its validity is still in question.

The second example, with the trees, is the same way. If you'd never seen A>B and B>C, then A>C before, you would be able to prove that the elm is indeed taller than the holly bush through logic alone. You could say that the elm is the tallest and the holly bush is the shortest, all because you've been trained in logic since birth. We all have. Just because we haven't seen the formal rule doesn't mean we can't use it.

In both examples, the method used must be proven to the user first, by the user. Until you accept it for yourself it will never be true for you. That's our subjective reality.

 

[Meow Mix]

I see you just like to argue.

If by "argue" you mean discuss...

Do you think human behaviour is logical? If not always and is sometimes irrational then how can everything in the universe be logical if humans are part of the universe?

This doesn't make sense. Of course the universe is logical; it isn't a belief. You're confusing ontology with epistemology here.

What is it about behaviour that can be irrational?

Improperly justifying, not knowing how to justify, believing without justification, believing it's rational to believe without justification... all of these things cause it.

Why try and fit humans in a dead emotionless logical box?

There's nothing "dead" or "emotionless" about rationality any more than rationality is green or smells like freshly cut grass. I really don't understand where you're coming from with some of these objections.

I am not looking for approval for any case. To walk in Love,joy and peace,long suffering, gentleness,goodness, faithfulness and self control is enough for me.
Actually its desire that causes the disconnect to reality.We create a separation or a pain in ourselves that doesn't mend until we become one with what it is we were desiring.It causes people to have a feeling of a hole inside themselves and can lead to mental illness when desire gets to much out of hand.
Thoughts are driven by emotions which are driven by underlying wants such as the want of control, the want of approval, the want of security and the want to be separate.

Ok, so it sounds like you believe irrationally and you are fine with believing irrationally.

That's fine, I just don't understand why anyone would choose to do that. Especially when most people will value reason for everything else in their lives except their religion... it's perplexing to me.

 

[Meow Mix]

No, because I dislike your hectoring tone.

I don't have a bullying tone, I'm asking legitimate questions about a truly perplexing issue: what drives someone to believe something irrationally, and why believe that thing and not any other ol' irrational thing? Why behave rationally in most other aspects of life, then drop rationality to believe something irrational?

I don't understand it.

And I don't understand why you're getting defensive about it.

I don't understand why I have to request and request and request in a debate forum for people to clarify these things for me and then have them tell me I'm bullying. Is asking a side in a debate forum to clarify their foundations and justify their claims bullying?!

 

[Meow Mix]

I was actually expecting an intelligent conversation with you. But it doesn’t look like that is going to happen. You ask too many questions and don’t add much to the conversation. I thought you might have known a little more about religion, but I guess you don’t. Also, do you mind repeating yourself? I had a hard time making all of that gibberish out.

I guess it's your intention to prove me right that direct requests for justifications of theism are almost always met with red herrings.

Can you justify theism or not? It appears as though "not," considering every time I ask you directly (even pleading "please don't go off on a red herring")... you just go off on red herrings.

If you're unwilling to do it just say so and we can move on to a different topic.