Would you buy it?

[Midnight Pete]

I don't have a bullying tone, I'm asking legitimate questions about a truly perplexing issue: what drives someone to believe something irrationally, and why believe that thing and not any other ol' irrational thing? Why behave rationally in most other aspects of life, then drop rationality to believe something irrational?

I don't understand it.

And I don't understand why you're getting defensive about it.

I don't understand why I have to request and request and request in a debate forum for people to clarify these things for me and then have them tell me I'm bullying. Is asking a side in a debate forum to clarify their foundations and justify their claims bullying?!

This is what I meant by "hectoring." Theory of Mind is what a lot of Aspergers and autistic people lack, and I'm seeing it spades with you. (I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome at age 8, btw.) Without Emotional Intelligence a towering IQ -- like yours -- is actually a hindrance.

 

[Meow Mix]

This is what I meant by "hectoring." Theory of Mind is what a lot of Aspergers and autistic people lack, and I'm seeing it spades with you. (I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome at age 8, btw.) Without Emotional Intelligence a towering IQ -- like yours -- is actually a hindrance.

But I understand that people have emotions, can perceive and identify them, experience them myself, and understand that people have different beliefs than I do. I comprehend that; I don't think I'm lacking emotional intelligence. It doesn't bother me if someone believes differently from me; I just don't understand why anyone would believe irrationally.

You probably don't understand why someone may want to murder, for instance.

They're hardly comparable and I'm not trying to suggest believing irrationally --> murder or anything, but I'm just asking these questions to try to understand where someone else is coming from -- what brought them to their decision to take up irrational belief, etc.

 

[Wotan]

But I understand that people have emotions, can perceive and identify them, experience them myself, and understand that people have different beliefs than I do. I comprehend that; I don't think I'm lacking emotional intelligence. It doesn't bother me if someone believes differently from me; I just don't understand why anyone would believe irrationally.

You probably don't understand why someone may want to murder, for instance.

They're hardly comparable and I'm not trying to suggest believing irrationally --> murder or anything, but I'm just asking these questions to try to understand where someone else is coming from -- what brought them to their decision to take up irrational belief, etc.

Your problem MM, is in two unspoken assumptions behind your argument.

"what brought them to their decision to take up irrational belief"
assumes that the belief decision IS rational and that the believer WANTS it to be.

Neither assumption is correct.

These people are NOT motivated by reason. If they were they wouldn't BE theists. They don't CARE if there is no rationale behind their decision. They simply believe because they want to. And in their minds that "want" is good and sufficient reason - AND justification. (Through most of them have NO idea what "justification" means in this context. As you can tell by their responses.)

 

[Wotan]

"Without Emotional Intelligence a towering IQ -- like yours -- is actually a hindrance."

Hindrance to what?

 

[Midnight Pete]

"Without Emotional Intelligence a towering IQ -- like yours -- is actually a hindrance."

Hindrance to what?

Functioning in society, making friends, forming relationships, that kind of thing.

 

[Meow Mix]

Functioning in society, making friends, forming relationships, that kind of thing.

I do all of those things though... I don't lack emotional intelligence, I just use emotion when it's appropriate. It's inappropriate to use emotion to determine what exists. It may be appropriate to use emotion to form an opinion on things that exist (e.g. I'm appalled by the existence of rape, murder, racism... I don't like the fact that parasitism is an affluently successful evolutionary strategy... etc.), but not to determine whether a thing exists.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I do all of those things though... I don't lack emotional intelligence, I just use emotion when it's appropriate. It's inappropriate to use emotion to determine what exists. It may be appropriate to use emotion to form an opinion on things that exist (e.g. I'm appalled by the existence of rape, murder, racism... I don't like the fact that parasitism is an affluently successful evolutionary strategy... etc.), but not to determine whether a thing exists.

Sadly, I lack the ability to "use" emotion only when it's appropriate. Why oh why was I born human instead of Vulcan?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

I don't understand why I have to request and request and request in a debate forum for people to clarify these things for me and then have them tell me I'm bullying. Is asking a side in a debate forum to clarify their foundations and justify their claims bullying?!

it seems like, although there are many terms that need clarification in this argument, the one that seems to be lost to most people participating is debate forum.
i often wonder what some people expected when they signed up for this.

p.s: considering this thread i'm thinking about going into the box business. i'll make sure you get your cut for the idea.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Pete perhaps you could apply this new found emotional intelligence to your comprehension of MM's tone.

-Q

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

Why oh why was I born human instead of Vulcan?

dont try to be mean, dude.

 

[Falvlun]

Sadly, I lack the ability to "use" emotion only when it's appropriate. Why oh why was I born human instead of Vulcan?

She gave you a pretty clear description about when emotion shouldn't be used and when it should. It's not about never using emotion.

Do you believe that emotion should be used when determining the number of whales in existence? Of course not. Otherwise, if you like whales your number may differ from that of somebody who doesn't like whales.

Now, should emotion be used in determining whether we should protect whales or not? Absolutely. While a logical argument could probably be made either for or against whale protection, I would think emotion an integral part of assigning value to something.

 

[painted wolf]

These people are NOT motivated by reason. If they were they wouldn't BE theists. They don't CARE if there is no rationale behind their decision. They simply believe because they want to. And in their minds that "want" is good and sufficient reason - AND justification. (Through most of them have NO idea what "justification" means in this context. As you can tell by their responses.)

I don't think I agree with this... but that should come as no surprise.
I have rational (my personal experience)... and I realize that it is irrational (it is not quantitative in the slightest). Yet, I can't seem to not believe in Creator... no matter how closely I flirt with Atheism. Certainly not because I "want to" believe.

Can I justify why this is to someone else... probably not. But, I as I've stated before, I tend to think religiosity is, influenced by genetics and environment. It displays a spectrum of expression not unlike our political behavior and our sexuality.

Some interesting research on the subject:
Understanding Biological and Social Influences on Religious Affiliation, Attitudes, and Behaviors: A Behavior Genetic Perspective - D’Onofrio - 2001 - Journal of Personality - Wiley Online Library
Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract
Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract
SpringerLink - Behavior Genetics, Volume 22, Number 1

It is adaptive to have a spectrum of behaviors in order to maintain a species adaptability... religious behavior in some circumstances is adaptive as is atheistic behavior in others.

I think that both sides are mistaken in attacking the other for simply "doing what they want".

wa:do

 

[Meow Mix]

I think that both sides are mistaken in attacking the other for simply "doing what they want".

wa:do

I agree with this, I try not to make assumptions about the resounding silence/beating around the bush I receive when I ask directly for justification.

I can only observe the lack of justification; any speculation on why there is a lack of justification is armchair psychology methinks. I try to ask why instead of assume, though I'm sure I've formed a subjective opinion or two on the matter. At least I recognize such opinions are subjective and I reject the idea that they [my subjective opinions] have any force or explanatory merit since they're unjustified.

 

[Walkntune]

I do all of those things though... I don't lack emotional intelligence, I just use emotion when it's appropriate. It's inappropriate to use emotion to determine what exists. It may be appropriate to use emotion to form an opinion on things that exist (e.g. I'm appalled by the existence of rape, murder, racism... I don't like the fact that parasitism is an affluently successful evolutionary strategy... etc.), but not to determine whether a thing exists.

All thoughts are emotionally driven. When you are determining whether something exists you are being curious.There is a feeling to curious.

 

[painted wolf]

I agree with this, I try not to make assumptions about the resounding silence/beating around the bush I receive when I ask directly for justification.

I can only observe the lack of justification; any speculation on why there is a lack of justification is armchair psychology methinks. I try to ask why instead of assume, though I'm sure I've formed a subjective opinion or two on the matter. At least I recognize such opinions are subjective and I reject the idea that they [my subjective opinions] have any force or explanatory merit since they're unjustified.

I honetly think that people simply can't justify it at any more than they could their sexuality or political views.

How do you justify an evolved trait that is exaggerated/mitigated by social and developmental cues?

wa:do

 

[Walkntune]

Meow Mix. You do not understand that humans are different and have different varying perceptions of observing and seeing reality. Some are completely logical and others are intuitive and deep thinkers.
Introverts — Different Brain Pathways and Neurotransmitters « Writing from the Edge 2
If you think logic is the only way to observe reality then you have to ask why the difference in introverts and extroverts in the way the brain functions?(look at link)
Some people rely on intuition like introverts and see beyond materialism because they allow allow the consciousness to do so. People who are only logical assume everything is just materialistic and can't see past it.
Just because it is irrational to your logic now because it is only observed intuitively does not mean someone can't see intuitively past what someone who is only logical can see now.
I would love to hear your understanding of intuition.
People observe the effects of God intuitively and although there are varying differences in the understanding of these effects, the effects are observed intuitively none the less and give enough rise for justification.

 

[Wotan]

Through most of them have NO idea what "justification" means in this context. As you can tell by their responses.

As for example ". . . the effects are observed intuitively none the less and give enough rise for justification."

 

[Walkntune]

Through most of them have NO idea what "justification" means in this context. As you can tell by their responses.

As for example ". . . the effects are observed intuitively none the less and give enough rise for justification."

Somehow you miss the point of the post.

 

[Wotan]

Somehow you miss the point of the post.

Yes, you did.

Intuition - right or wrong - does NOT justify anything. It CAN'T. Simply because it cannot be repeated. It can't even be understood by anyone other than the person claiming to have it.

It is not even POOR evidence of something. It is worthless.

 

[Walkntune]

Yes, you did.

Intuition - right or wrong - does NOT justify anything. It CAN'T. Simply because it cannot be repeated. It can't even be understood by anyone other than the person claiming to have it.

It is not even POOR evidence of something. It is worthless.

Einstein claims it is the most important part of thinking.Why do you soppose that is?

Although intuition is what allows us to move forward—is the most important part of thinking—it alone is not enough. Knowledge also has its place, but intuition is the gatekeeper at the most critical juncture. Even though the workings of intuition remain mysterious, it is a reality.
http://intuition-indepth.blogspot.com/2007/11/einsteins-intuition.html