Would you convert?

[Katzpur]

I think we're missing one important fact. When we die, we are still the same person we were in this life. If someone has been clearly presented LDS teachings in this life and had trouble accepting them, they will continue to have this trouble in the next life (Spirit Prison). It's not like there will be bumper stickers proclaiming "Mormons were right!"

Yes, we will still be the same people, but I think that certain stumbling blocks will likely be removed. Cultural and political baggage, along with one's upbringing may have prevented someone from being receptive to certain teachings in this life. But when those things are no longer an issue, who knows how many people may be able to look at things with an entirely new perspective. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe you'll understand that you are in Spirit Prison. If you understand this then you've probably already had your chance on earth and won't be getting another one - but that is for God to decide.

I'm not so sure about that. You'll know that you're miserable and that other people are filled with peace and joy. You may not have a name for the state you're in, but if you were to witness a change in your "cellmates" after they came to repent and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you might start putting 2 and 2 together.

In the next life you will still be the same person, but while in Spirit Prison I'm not sure how much you will or will not remember of your earthly life.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. If any Latter-day Saint knows of anything in the Standard Works that might shed some light on this subject, I'd be interested in hearing it.

One thing I want to be clear about is that Spirit Prison is NOT for second chances. It's for those who didn't have their fair shot while on earth. We all only get ONE chance and God being the fair and just and merciful being that He is will make sure that everyone will receive an equal chance.

I see where you're coming from, Nutshell, and I can pretty much go along with you on that. But I do think the circumstances surrounding how the Gospel message was presented to a person here on earth, and how prepared he was to understand it when he heard it, etc. might very well be taken into consideration. And also, the parents of children born in the covenant have an additional promise that if those children have strayed from the truth, they will return to the fold.

 

[Katzpur]

Maybe so but could you respect someone who said that? Do you think that GOD would understand or do you think that He would be offended?

I'm not quite sure I understand your question, cardero. Would you mind explaining it a little more fully?

 

[cardero]

Katzpur writes; To say, "I like my concept of truth better than I like God's," strikes me as being totally lacking in common sense

Cardero responds: Maybe so but could you respect someone who said that? Do you think that GOD would understand or do you think that He would be offended?

There are many people who are surviving without truth from God and who have devised their own methods of existence without the aid or understanding of God truth. Could you respect someone who can live without God and does God understand why an individual chooses to live this way and should God become offended by this way of living?

 

[Booko]

From the LDS pov, we must accept Jesus, which includes doing all that He has asked us to do, such as get baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc etc. To be honest, getting baptized is just the beginning. There are more ordinances we do in this life and for the dead, but I won't get into those since this thread is specifically about baptism.

Does the baptism I already have count?

 

[Katzpur]

There are many people who are surviving without truth from God and who have devised their own methods of existence without the aid or understanding of God truth. Could you respect someone who can live without God and does God understand why an individual chooses to live this way and should God become offended by this way of living?

I can totally respect someone like that, but that's because I believe that all will ultimately come to the realization that we do need God. I'm thinking of someone who lived his life as an atheist, for example. Since I cannot even be able to conceive of the possibility that there is no God (seriously -- no matter how hard I were to try), I've got to accept the fact that there are other people who cannot even conceive of the possibility that there is a God. I have talked to atheists who have admitted that they would like to believe and just can't bring themselves to do so. I have no idea why some people find it impossible not to believe while others find it impossible to believe. I simply do not buy into the idea that one can will himself to believe. But, from my perspective, by the time a non-believer finds himself in the Spirit World, he will be able to not only believe that there is a God, but will recognize that he needs God in order to go any futher. I also suspect that if I can understand how someone could go through life not believing in God, He can understand (and not be offended), too. He's a whole lot more perceptive than I am.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Several threads lately have addressed the LDS belief in a Spirit World where the spirits of all mankind go after death and remain until the time of the resurrection and Final Judgment. As has been explained, we believe that for the righteous, life in the Spirit World will be "Paradise." For with wicked, it will be "Prison." But for all, there will be the opportunity to continue to learn and grow spiritually. Although Jesus Christ will not be there personally, His Gospel (LDS-version) will be being taught to everyone who will listen. (Darn, those pesky missionaries just don't know when to quit! ). But the good news is, it's not too late to accept their message after all! In short, everything is exactly the way the LDS people you knew here on earth said it would be, down to the last detail. What would your reaction be?

Sure, if you provide evidence meaning you have to prove it.

 

[SPLogan]

So your death would be a forced drug-induced experience by Satan?
So there is absolutley no possiblity that we could be right?

I'm just saying that before I would simply switch religions and essentially believe in a different deity, I would probably doubt the reality of my experience. I think that experiences are fallible. Think about a person who suffers from schizophrenia...

Being convinced of an alternate reality is a pretty big deal you know.

 

[Bishka]

I'm just saying that before I would simply switch religions and essentially believe in a different deity, I would probably doubt the reality of my experience. I think that experiences are fallible. Think about a person who suffers from schizophrenia...

Being convinced of an alternate reality is a pretty big deal you know.

You are under that misunderstanding again. My goodness sake! We don't worship a different God then you, how many times do we need to explain this?

 

[Bishka]

Being convinced of an alternate reality is a pretty big deal you know.

Actually it isn't, I used to be able to convince myself of some pretty odd things.

 

[nutshell]

Does the baptism I already have count?

Well, let me ask what was the method or your baptism and the authority of the one performing it?

 

[Katzpur]

Seriously, I have problems with revelations that are supposed to be a historical record, yet God removed the hard copy before we got a chance to read it.

That's odd. If what the "historical record" proved to be true, you'd still insist on a hard copy? Why? And how would the absence of a hard copy, prove that it wasn't true?

 

[SPLogan]

You are under that misunderstanding again. My goodness sake! We don't worship a different God then you, how many times do we need to explain this?

okay, I'll give you that (if you consider yourself a monotheist) I guess, even if various people believe in different/conflicting attributes for the one God, all of us monotheists believe in "the" God, we're all referring to that God who is there. Also, I think we both embrace the Bible a God's word. I guess that's significant and a good place to start.
When I say "God" I am refering to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (one). Do you also believe in that god?

 

[Katzpur]

okay, I'll give you that (if you consider yourself a monotheist) I guess, even if various people believe in different/conflicting attributes for the one God, all of us monotheists believe in "the" God, we're all referring to that God who is there. Also, I think we both embrace the Bible a God's word. I guess that's significant and a good place to start.
When I say "God" I am refering to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (one). Do you also believe in that god?

Yes. Our first Article of Faith states, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost." (But let's not get too far off topic, okay?)

 

[SPLogan]

Actually it isn't, I used to be able to convince myself of some pretty odd things.

Two key questions:
Were you convinced of those "odd things" based on experience?
Did you want to be convinced of those "odd things?"

 

[Bishka]

Two key questions:
Were you convinced of those "odd things" based on experience?
Did you want to be convinced of those "odd things?"

Yes.

No.

 

[SPLogan]

Yes.

No.

But you "wanted" to be convinced, in the sense that you were "willing" to be convinced. That was supposed to be a rhetorical question. My bad.

My point is that experience or no experience, to be convinced of something, you must be willing to be convinced of it.
The will is more foundational than experience. In that sence, you have to want to believe something to accept it.

 

[Bishka]

But you "wanted" to be convinced, in the sense that you were "willing" to be convinced. That was supposed to be a rhetorical question. My bad.

My point is that experience or no experience, to be convinced of something, you must be willing to be convinced of it.
The will is more foundational than experience. In that sence, you have to want to believe something to accept it.

Not necessarily.

There are times I was fundamentaly against believing and being convinced of something and lo and behold, I was convinced. Don't push your expeiences on everybody elses experiences.

 

[SPLogan]

There are times I was fundamentaly against believing and being convinced of something and lo and behold, I was convinced.

I'm hoping that this is one of those times.

The movie The Matrix is all about this topic. Refer to it.
People change their beliefs, but it is not fundamentally because of sufficient data and convincing experiences. People fundamentally believe what they are willing to believe.

For example, think how hard it would be for an atheist to convince a Christian that there is really no God. Likewise, think how hard it is for a Christian to convince an atheist that there is a God. What if someone tried to convince you that your parents aren't really your parents?
Suppose someone was fully convinced that they were dead. Suppose a friend tried to convince them that they were really alive by pricking their finger to draw blood. When blood spurts out of their pricked finger, would the person become convinced that they were really alive, or would they simply be convinced that dead people bleed? either conclusion is plausible

People fundamentally believe what they will to believe.

Here's a passage of scripture is somewhat related:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)

I think that this is an important point in this thread.

 

[Booko]

Well, let me ask what was the method or your baptism and the authority of the one performing it?

Just your basic mainstream Protestant baptism. Infant. No full immersion. As for authority, the pastor's ordained, but I honestly don't know the theological or historical underpinnings for said authority.

otoh, my husband was baptized in the RCC, which I think is very clear about where it derives its authority -- from Christ through the apostle Peter.