Would you convert?

[lunamoth]

I'd like to get in a quick question but I'm getting my girls ready for bed (thtree books tonight Mommy!) so forgive my bluntness (not trying to challenge or offend, just learn). Do you (LDS) believe that non-LDS Christians will go to Spirit Prison because even though they believe in Christ as Saviour, Lord and Son of God they do not believe the LDS doctrines and did not have an LDS baptism? (I see that there are some other threads on related subjects, but I have not read them all).

luna

 

[Booko]

That's odd. If what the "historical record" proved to be true, you'd still insist on a hard copy? Why? And how would the absence of a hard copy, prove that it wasn't true?

It wouldn't matter if there were a hard copy. We have a hard copy in Haifa, but the mere existence of it doesn't make people convert (nor should it).

Evidence and facts to have something to do with faith and belief, but there seem to be more to it than just that.

And to try desperatly to get back to the OP -- in the next life, assuming I was in spirit prison, what sorts of evidence might I be presented with aside from the fact of where I was that would lead me to accept the Gospel?

(Hm. Maybe we should start a new thread elsewhere on "What does it mean to "accept the Gospel"? afaik, I have accepted it. But I know there are others who disagree.)

 

[Bishka]

Nope, I think it was Kathryn would said that because of the political, cultural, etc, baggage that we carry, we may not be able to see the real truth in this life and God will not hold that against us.

 

[Booko]

My point is that experience or no experience, to be convinced of something, you must be willing to be convinced of it.
The will is more foundational than experience. In that sence, you have to want to believe something to accept it.

Ah! You would have to explain my conversion to theism from atheism, then. Because I assure you, my intent in studying religious was to discover why so many people would be so deluded.

I hardly wanted to be....delusional. :areyoucra

We should probably take that discussion somewhere else, though.

(Darn! Can't I answer *anything* in this thread and stay on topic???)

 

[Ody]

How would I not know if I was being tested? :thud:

 

[Booko]

I'm hoping that this is one of those times.

The movie The Matrix is all about this topic. Refer to it.
People change their beliefs, but it is not fundamentally because of sufficient data and convincing experiences. People fundamentally believe what they are willing to believe.

For example, think how hard it would be for an atheist to convince a Christian that there is really no God. Likewise, think how hard it is for a Christian to convince an atheist that there is a God. What if someone tried to convince you that your parents aren't really your parents?
Suppose someone was fully convinced that they were dead. Suppose a friend tried to convince them that they were really alive by pricking their finger to draw blood. When blood spurts out of their pricked finger, would the person become convinced that they were really alive, or would they simply be convinced that dead people bleed? either conclusion is plausible

People fundamentally believe what they will to believe.

Here's a passage of scripture is somewhat related:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)

I think that this is an important point in this thread.

Hey, they gave me the power to break stuff off into new threads. :woohoo:

You want I should break this and a couple of other posts off into a new thread? This is an interesting topic and I would hate to drop it, but we're getting really off topic.

 

[Booko]

How would I not know if I was being tested? :thud:

Honey, I'm an expert in not knowing I'm being tested!

I explain it to the kids this way: First if you do something that's bad for you, God taps you on the shoulder. If you don't pay attention and keep doing it, He might give you a shout. If you keep it up, eventually you get the spiritual two-by-four. Sometime or other, one hopes you pay attention, before you self-destruct.

For those who would call this "fear tactics" I refer you to Sunstone's friend who stepped on a nail and apparently ignored it so much he now has gangrene in his foot. To quote Uncle Sunstone: Who gets gangrene???

Ignoring the spiritual wounds doesn't make them go away either. They just get bigger.

We're tested all the time and don't know it -- because we aren't paying attention or are just hanging onto our personal stuff.

 

[SPLogan]

Hey, they gave me the power to break stuff off into new threads. :woohoo:

You want I should break this and a couple of other posts off into a new thread? This is an interesting topic and I would hate to drop it, but we're getting really off topic.

I didn't think it was so far off...
If you want to start a new thread and include my posts, that's okay, but please don't pluck my comments out of this one.

Perhaps I could have been more concise and focused...:sorry1:

 

[bigvindaloo]

Several threads lately have addressed the LDS belief in a Spirit World where the spirits of all mankind go after death and remain until the time of the resurrection and Final Judgment. As has been explained, we believe that for the righteous, life in the Spirit World will be "Paradise." For with wicked, it will be "Prison." But for all, there will be the opportunity to continue to learn and grow spiritually. Although Jesus Christ will not be there personally, His Gospel (LDS-version) will be being taught to everyone who will listen. (Darn, those pesky missionaries just don't know when to quit! ). But the good news is, it's not too late to accept their message after all! In short, everything is exactly the way the LDS people you knew here on earth said it would be, down to the last detail. What would your reaction be?

This hypothetical does not improve the position of an observer on this earth with respect to LDS beliefs who would still have to make a choice whether to accept or reject "the message". If anything this position is regress to the mind of an LDS believer. If official doctrine, it is offered by the LDS belief system as a second chance to convert, but in reality conflates this life with the afterlife assuming its premise and so is a question begging position to take.

No I would not convert unless I stood in front of the goal, and could rationalise faith as fact about what lay on the other side.

 

[Bishka]

This hypothetical does not improve the position of an observer on this earth with respect to LSD beliefs who would still have to make a choice whether to accept or reject "the message". If anything this position is regress to the mind of an LSD believer. If official doctrine, it is offered by the LSD belief system as a second chance to convert, but in reality conflates this life with the afterlife assuming its premise and so is a question begging position to take.

No I would not convert unless I stood in front of the goal, and could rationalise faith as fact about what lay on the other side.

I think you mean LDS.

 

[bigvindaloo]

I think you mean LDS.

TYPO

 

[Katzpur]

I'd like to get in a quick question but I'm getting my girls ready for bed (thtree books tonight Mommy!) so forgive my bluntness (not trying to challenge or offend, just learn). Do you (LDS) believe that non-LDS Christians will go to Spirit Prison because even though they believe in Christ as Saviour, Lord and Son of God they do not believe the LDS doctrines and did not have an LDS baptism? (I see that there are some other threads on related subjects, but I have not read them all).

luna

You know, I've seen so many different opinions on this that I'm not even going to try to tell you what the official stance on this is. However, I will say that Jesus clearly told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him on that very day in Paradise. Since this is attested to in the scriptures, I think it's entirely safe to assume that when we say "the righteous will go to Paradise," that means exactly what it says. And we all know that a person need not be LDS to be righteous.

 

[Katzpur]

You want I should break this and a couple of other posts off into a new thread? This is an interesting topic and I would hate to drop it, but we're getting really off topic.

That sounds like a great idea. Would you do that, please. Exercise that power!!!

 

[Booko]

I didn't think it was so far off...
If you want to start a new thread and include my posts, that's okay, but please don't pluck my comments out of this one.

Perhaps I could have been more concise and focused...:sorry1:

Yeah, well I'm not exactly focused myself at the moment. Looking at too many Irish Dance dresses makes my eyeballs swim.

But anyway, to get kinda back on topic here -- what about the idea that one can be very unwilling, and still end up accepting an idea (whether in this life or the next one).

If there's anything about my "converting" to theism from atheism, it had more to do with, well, a sort of fearless search for the truth. That is, fearless in the sense that I didn't fear the idea that I might, just possibly, be wrong.

Isn't that why all religions teach the importance of humility?

If in the next life I found myself in a situation that really showed the Mormons were right and I was wrong about some things -- why would I *not* convert, unless I was just too stuck in my own darned pride to see it?

Oy vey and begorrah -- I really need to get some sleep. I'm not sure anything I typed made any sense at all. :sleep:

 

[bobthom]

Oh, it's a term I made up a long time ago. It is sort of pagan. Essentially, it means that I believe that if any one religion is true, then all of them have to be. That's where the polytheism fits in. Now I have a hard time believing in all religions, let alone one. That's where the agnosticism fits in.

 

[Fluffy]

As long as God offered some convincing reasons for some of his morals (such as homosexuality being a sin) in addition to his existence, then I would convert. Proving his existence alone would not be enough.

 

[Smoke]

I would probably think it was some kind of delusion. If I somehow became persuaded it was true, I might convert. It would be a difficult adjustment, but I find Mormon theology in many respects less objectionable than many other kinds of Christian theology, so it wouldn't be a big a leap as becoming, say, Calvinist or Southern Baptist.

 

[uumckk16]

I don't believe you'll understand that you are in Spirit Prison. If you understand this then you've probably already had your chance on earth and won't be getting another one - but that is for God to decide.

One thing I want to be clear about is that Spirit Prison is NOT for second chances. It's for those who didn't have their fair shot while on earth. We all only get ONE chance and God being the fair and just and merciful being that He is will make sure that everyone will receive an equal chance.

I guess I'm not entirely clear on the theology. Firstly, I thought everyone went to either Paradise or Prison after their deaths. So I don't understand your point of "you've already had your chance on earth and won't be getting another one" - that to me implies the person goes to Hell...unless what you meant is that the person stays in Prison for eternity. Secondly, how can you not realize you're in Prison? Wouldn't you have to realize it at some point, in order to move on? For example if there was someone who lived in another country and never heard anything about LDS during this lifetime, then died, they obviously didn't get a fair chance and as you said God would give them that chance. But the only way they'd be able to accept LDS theology is if they heard about it...so it must be made clear in Prison that that's where you are. Does that make sense?

 

[Ezzedean]

I think we're missing one important fact. When we die, we are still the same person we were in this life. If someone has been clearly presented LDS teachings in this life and had trouble accepting them, they will continue to have this trouble in the next life (Spirit Prison). It's not like there will be bumper stickers proclaiming "Mormons were right!"

You think the truth isn't going to be clear as day once we die? Or come the day of Judgment?

 

[uumckk16]

I'm hoping that this is one of those times.

The movie The Matrix is all about this topic. Refer to it.
People change their beliefs, but it is not fundamentally because of sufficient data and convincing experiences. People fundamentally believe what they are willing to believe.
For example, think how hard it would be for an atheist to convince a Christian that there is really no God. Likewise, think how hard it is for a Christian to convince an atheist that there is a God. What if someone tried to convince you that your parents aren't really your parents?
Suppose someone was fully convinced that they were dead. Suppose a friend tried to convince them that they were really alive by pricking their finger to draw blood. When blood spurts out of their pricked finger, would the person become convinced that they were really alive, or would they simply be convinced that dead people bleed? either conclusion is plausible

People fundamentally believe what they will to believe.

I'm not sure I completely agree with you. I think it depends entirely on the person (their personality), and how strong their convictions are. Some people are simply not very stuck in their beliefs, and are pretty open to change. Then there are cases such as Booko's where the person ended up changing their beliefs not because they willed to but because they felt they had to. You hear about fundamentalists becoming atheists and atheists becoming fundamentalists. It goes both ways.

If someone tried to convince me my parents weren't really my parents, and had evidence to prove it - birth/adoption records - I wouldn't ignore them; I'd do some digging and see if I could find out the truth. And I could certainly decide that they were indeed not my parents, despite the fact that at the moment I am pretty strongly convinced that they are indeed my parents.

I think most people believe what they want to believe unless there is clear evidence proving it otherwise. That being said, in the topic of religion I'd agree most people believe what they want to believe as there is no evidence except that taken on faith.