Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?

[FearGod]

What will be the benefit of science if God created us similar to monkeys.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Do you have a better point?

The point is to find out who God is before it is too late. The point is to then find out why we are here and what lies ahead.

If mankind is too full of himself as to not look out beyond his temporal desires and lusts, then mankind deserves to be made a fool of come judgment day.

I believe mankind tries. It's not just lust and hate and destruction. There's plenty of good that happens too. I'm not saying put your 100% trust in man but our continuous belief that all people will do is screw you over I don't think has helped much. In fact it seems that learning to rely on one another has been what has pushed us this far.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

What will be the benefit of science if God created us similar to monkeys.

Similar to monkeys?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You make no sense.

You make even less sense "assuming" that God does not exist.

Why assume by the way? I thought you knew?

Oh what risks one takes playing the macho man.

Why assume that he does? Out of fear of some punishment that might or might not happen in an afterlife that might or might not exist? I'd rather live my life the way I please and deal with the hypothetical consequences later.
Also, I never made any claims to absolute knowledge; I said I don't believe in a god or an afterlife.

 

[FearGod]

Similar to monkeys?

God created human with thinking ability and better communication than the rest of creations.

taught Man that he knew not. (96:5)

 

[thau]

I believe mankind tries. It's not just lust and hate and destruction. There's plenty of good that happens too. I'm not saying put your 100% trust in man but our continuous belief that all people will do is screw you over I don't think has helped much. In fact it seems that learning to rely on one another has been what has pushed us this far.

You do not arrive at any profound conclusions or decisions. You seem to leave it at “I’m Ok and you’re Ok” and let the chips fall as they may.

That does not sound very convincing to me. It sounds like one taking the easier road and not making oneself accountable to too much.

No, God is far more evident than that. But no paragraph or two is going to convince anyone of its truth on this board --- that much is apparent.

And, no, I do not believe man left to his own whims bears that much good fruit. In fact, historically one can see that the more materially successful man becomes the less he cares about God. And even though he may give some to his needy neighbor ---- he still saves far more for his own pleasures (by percentage) than if he were poor and trying to assist others.

Like Jesus said (paraphrase) --- “So some of you are kind and generous to your friends and your family. Big deal. Even the most wicked of sinners do as much.”

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

You do not arrive at any profound conclusions or decisions. You seem to leave it at “I’m Ok and you’re Ok” and let the chips fall as they may.

That does not sound very convincing to me. It sounds like one taking the easier road and not making oneself accountable to too much.

No, God is far more evident than that. But no paragraph or two is going to convince anyone of its truth on this board --- that much is apparent.

And, no, I do not believe man left to his own whims bears that much good fruit. In fact, historically one can see that the more materially successful man becomes the less he cares about God. And even though he may give some to his needy neighbor ---- he still saves far more for his own pleasures (by percentage) than if he were poor and trying to assist others.

Like Jesus said (paraphrase) --- “So some of you are kind and generous to your friends and your family. Big deal. Even the most wicked of sinners do as much.”

Yeah you're not saying anything that isn't evident but there are times when people go out their way to help those who they do not know. It's not just family and friends but helping those who you don't know. The way you speak make it seem like its useless for man to even attempt that. Giving up because you believe the world is evil is foolishness to me.

People try, they fail but they try. Like the child who draws their family sure its not Picasso but the parent cherishes the attempts. Mankind tries because we were created with the ability to see good and evil not just evil.

 

[thau]

Why assume that he does? Out of fear of some punishment that might or might not happen in an afterlife that might or might not exist?

I do not assume He exists. I know He does. The evidence is all around us.
Heavens, you cannot provide any plausible explanation for statues of the Virgin Mary weeping human tears or tears of blood except to say hoax. And just because some misguided zealot once was shown to try to concoct one hardly disproves all of the others out there.
Also, your dear friends science have done a masterful job at proving the supernatural manifestations in the Shroud of Turin. It is beyond denial at this juncture. All one needs to do is read up on the inexplicable qualities found on that cloth. It is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. There is no longer any reasonable doubt.
There is much more evidence of God and the supernatural. I need to assume nothing on that score.

I'd rather live my life the way I please and deal with the hypothetical consequences later.

Yes, you and so many others have made that abundantly clear. It is a fools game, I am sorry to have to reiterate that. If you choose not to listen, then why keep asking?

Also, I never made any claims to absolute knowledge; I said I don't believe in a god or an afterlife.

Fine you do not believe. You are not sure, you just are going with that assumption. Ok.

 

[thau]

Yeah you're not saying anything that isn't evident but there are times when people go out their way to help those who they do not know. It's not just family and friends but helping those who you don't know. The way you speak make it seem like its useless for man to even attempt that. Giving up because you believe the world is evil is foolishness to me.

People try, they fail but they try. Like the child who draws their family sure its not Picasso but the parent cherishes the attempts. Mankind tries because we were created with the ability to see good and evil not just evil.

Fine, I concede your point. So what?

Does that make you deserving of heaven? Does that leave you off the hook to do so much more? Are you satisfied with the status quo? Not too many wars for you? Not too many murders and rapes and crimes? Not too much greed and corruption and gossip and lieing and cheating going on? Not too many poor or malnourished we cannot absorb or accept?

In other words: I still do not get your complacency? I still do not get how you think even if there is a God we are not asked to do so much more, or that there are not real consequences after death based on our actions or lack of actions?

 

[sojourner]

And extremely common in this day and age, which is why I wouldn't say we live in a world without religion. Which isn't to say greed wouldn't exist in a world without religion. It would just be more honest greed.

Is greed ever honest?

 

[sojourner]

You don't need religion to preserve humankind. If anything, religion does more to kill us. There's nothing beneficial about religion that you can't gain elsewhere.

I disagree, provided your meaning of "religion" = "spirituality."

 

[sojourner]

Would you rather live in a world without penicillin or a world without art? Obviously a world without art.

And in what way does that denigrate art?​

Penicillin was a boon in days past, but it's getting us in trouble now. What we've succeeded in doing is to create a Frankenstein -- lots of resistant "super bugs" that we can no longer eradicate. We've relied far too heavily on antibiotics, and we're paying the price.

 

[sojourner]

What does religion give us emotionally (I believe spirituality is an emotional fabrication) that we can't get outside of religion?

I don't think spirituality is particularly an "emotional fabrication." Emotionally, religion doesn't give us anything that can't be gotten elsewhere. What religion gives us spiritually, OTOH, is a different matter, and simply can't be replicated by any other discipline.

 

[ChristineES]

What world would you rather live in? Do we need a balance, or is one more important than the other?

I am thankful I can have them both. Just like I don't have to choose between fish and green beans. Or I don't have to choose between a car and a house.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

It occurs to me that this thread is an excellent demonstration of how utterly spoiled first world humans truly are. We're apparently completely unwilling to fathom giving up the luxuries science applications have provided for us. This scares me. We're pathologically addicted to the status quo.

Um... What? Preferring the advances of science to the superstitions and prejudices of religion does not entail "being completely unwilling to fathom giving up the luxuries science ...(has) provided".

Talk about non-sequitur.

From an ecological standpoint, it seems to me the excesses of first world standards of living are substantially more dangerous on a global scale than any religious ideology, but since ideology plays into how both science and religion are used

Why would an ecological or environmental perspective be the most salient one here? Doesn't the toll religion takes on human life- by inciting violence, hate, and war, and by infantalizing people and destroying human potential- at least equal, if not exceed, the damage done to the environment by irresponsible uses of science or technology?

And shouldn't we consider the pro's as well as the con's? It seems that the pro's of science- all the things science has provided, many of which are not simply luxuries, as you say (is the fact that we now live twice as long, and have a much higher quality of life, and can easily treat diseases that were once fatal a matter of "luxury"?)- outweigh the cons (damage to the environment, unsustainable practices, possible misuses e.g. nuclear weaponry), whereas religion has no pro's which are unique to it. Everything religion offers, one can find elsewhere- whether in art, secular philosophy, etc.- and it has some rather serious cons, as I"ve mentioned already, whereas science has a monopoly on its pro's; nothing else can provide what science can provide.

Given all this, the choice is painfully obvious- religion offers nothing, and has many serious negative effects, whereas science offers essential and huge advantages, which offset its potential harms and then some.

I don't feel it's possible to even disentangle this to say one is "better" or "worse" than the other.

And why not? Seems pretty easy to me...

And here's a ludicrous claim-

I just have this intuitive sense that ... science is over-valued and religion is under-valued.

Lol.. Really? Religion is under-valued? Ok, I'll play along- how so?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I think it would be impossible to have a world with only one... A world without spirituality - without spirits - would be a world without life...

Um... No, that doesn't follow. We already live in a world without spirits, for one, and a world without sprituality would NOT be a "world without life"; life would still exist, but humans would be more practical-minded, and would not be burdened with concerns about otherwordly superstitions.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I don't think spirituality is particularly an "emotional fabrication." Emotionally, religion doesn't give us anything that can't be gotten elsewhere. What religion gives us spiritually, OTOH, is a different matter, and simply can't be replicated by any other discipline.

Like what?

(be specific!)

 

[sojourner]

The point is to find out who God is before it is too late.

The point is to find out who we are. From God's POV, it's never "too late." God will search until we are found.

 

[sojourner]

Romans 1:18-25 (below) is rather frightening. Sorry. No, we cannot understand all there is to know about God’s ways, but we surely know enough. And we surely would be fools to ignore that which has been revealed.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Oh, dear God! What's next, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God?" The whole "wrath of God" thingy. God's a big bogeyman in the sky who's gonna git'cha if you're not careful. What a terrible thing it must be to live in fear and dread, afraid of one's own humanity.

 

[sojourner]

You do not arrive at any profound conclusions or decisions. You seem to leave it at “I’m Ok and you’re Ok” and let the chips fall as they may.

That does not sound very convincing to me. It sounds like one taking the easier road and not making oneself accountable to too much.

No, God is far more evident than that. But no paragraph or two is going to convince anyone of its truth on this board --- that much is apparent.

And, no, I do not believe man left to his own whims bears that much good fruit. In fact, historically one can see that the more materially successful man becomes the less he cares about God. And even though he may give some to his needy neighbor ---- he still saves far more for his own pleasures (by percentage) than if he were poor and trying to assist others.

Like Jesus said (paraphrase) --- “So some of you are kind and generous to your friends and your family. Big deal. Even the most wicked of sinners do as much.”

I never cared much for the "Church of Eeyore" -- "We can't all and some don't. That's just How It Is." So much for humanity being the crowning glory of God's creation -- made just a little lower than the angels, worthy of God's attention in becoming one of us.