Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

[Bthoth]

I don't recall saying (or learning) that any group is "better" than another.

The whole premise of being given a promised land is by the few that believe that they are chosen by god (special) over the rest of mankind.

That is what the whole tangent is, that enabled the dross to become so rude to palestinians.

 

[rosends]

The whole premise of being given a promised land is by the few that believe that they are chosen by god (special) over the rest of mankind.

That is what the whole tangent is, that enabled the dross to become so rude to palestinians.

the notion of "chosen" is not about being better. It is about being given additional rules and obligations. Being given a particular piece of land is part of fulfilling those obligations. Not being given land anywhere else in the world and other nations being given other land is just all part of the same plan. The fact that a modern state exists on that same land because the various ruling powers mandated as much is an issue of modern nation states and land rulership, not a function of religion.

 

[Bthoth]

the notion of "chosen" is not about being better. It is about being given additional rules and obligations.

What obligations did Abram commit too?

Being given a particular piece of land is part of fulfilling those obligations.

No god, unless perhaps a pharaoh gave anyone lands. Again, the narrative does not justify using that claim as true.

Not being given land anywhere else in the world and other nations being given other land is just all part of the same plan.

What plan, to destroy it again..... ?

The fact that a modern state exists on that same land because the various ruling powers mandated as much is an issue of modern nation states and land rulership, not a function of religion.

Yes, UN RES 181 did convey lands and likewise omitted jerusalem as a part of that conveyance. The religious function is why the location was required then as even now. The extremist expect to build a temple and return to animal sacrificing. The Jews dont have such a requirement but the dross and mislead actually still do and will break every rule in the book to make it happen.

 

[dybmh]

That higher power (g-d) did not say that you can break the commandments and just be IDF complacent.

irrelevant

But to learn, is to be objective....... The muslim point of view is that ishmael was the first born.

irrelevant

I prefer the wisdom over the talmud/midrash interpretations. Keeping the rules (personal responsibility) makes more sense as to why any god would prefer 1 group over another, just like the noah story represents.

"Keeping the rules (personal responsibility)" <-------- it's completely irresponsible not to have a justice system, not to mention satanic.

Yes, "satan" will whisper all kinds of messages into a person's heart and mind to convince them that Jews shouldn't have a temple, and religious identifiers should be erased, and personal responsibility and FREEDOM is the highest ideal.

The dross are israel per the chapter. I am observing the descriptions of why the judgment, oppressing widows and orphans (the fatherless).

At that time "israel" are the "mixed multitude" which followed after the "House of Jacob" when they departed egypt. The dross are "egypt" and everything it represtents. And that's you're dross ( literally. It is YOU'RE dross ), and that's why the following chapters WHICH YOU ARE IGNORING are seperating egypt. They are seperate. Egypt is seperate and should be seperate. That is consistent through out the WHOLE Tanach.

And that's why the "visions" and "whispers" in the heart and brain are wanting to erase and mix and blend. But the Torah teaches no.

Why not try being consistent, and reading the story completely? It will prevent being manipulated by malevolent forces.

 

[Bthoth]

irrelevant

irrelevant

"Yes, "satan" will whisper all kinds of messages into a person's heart and mind to convince them that" The commandments are 'irrelevant' to the Jews.

"Keeping the rules (personal responsibility)" <-------- it's completely irresponsible

To the dross but you fail to comprehend that without the commandment there would be no justice system....

Yes, "satan" will whisper all kinds of messages into a person's heart and mind to convince them that Jews shouldn't have a temple, and religious identifiers should be erased, and personal responsibility and FREEDOM is the highest ideal.

idolatry for a temple is still just idolalty.

The very reason a temple and animal sacrificing is required is for the guilt. Animal sacrificing is not justice.

At that time "israel" are the "mixed multitude" which followed after the "House of Jacob" when they departed egypt.

IN egypt the ruling class inbred their leaders causing damage to the genetic make up of even king tut. By combining the gene pools enables a much stronger set of immune system for surviving.

The dross are "egypt" and everything it represtents.

Such as inbreeding family members to try and keep the family as a ruling tribe and claiming to be chosen by god.

And that's you're dross

nope, the tanakh is very clear that the dross are israel but you dont like the prophecy of tanakh when it contradicts your narrative from lousy training

, and that's why the following chapters WHICH YOU ARE IGNORING are seperating egypt.

Separating egypt? The levant was Egypts New Kingdom during th very time period of an exodus. Moses was born and raised in egypt, per torah, per him per se.

They are seperate. Egypt is seperate and should be seperate. That is consistent through out the WHOLE Tanach.

OK.... I did not argue that. I was just honest about the culture of egypt is throughout torah but you do not like it.

And that's why the "visions" and "whispers" in the heart and brain are wanting to erase and mix and blend.

Mix what? Beta israel are of africa and colored Jews. That nutlessyahoo is of the other spectrum, while the majority of Jews in israel are of arab decent. That diversity is good making the population far stonger genetically for survival here in the garden (nature)

But the Torah teaches no.

I get it, you do not like mankind and want to remain separate as if a different species of mankind.

Why not try being consistent, and reading the story completely? It will prevent being manipulated by malevolent forces.

i constantly read the stories and learn still, each day but I am not retaining the bigotry models and parts just because you expect to dominate US all.

what you are doing is exactly how egyptian held their populations as captive, trying to build the idea of being special over the rest of us.

That exodus was to leave that mindset of a family claiming to be special over mankind. That is what moses did for us as to keep the commandments (rules of personal responsibility) that anyone can be just as good as the rulers (solid human beings).

If that breaks your back of expecting capitulation from the populous than welcome to the real world (what is real).

 

[dybmh]

The very reason a temple and animal sacrificing is required is for the guilt.

Animal sacrificing is not justice.

Not all of the offerings are animal.

 

[Bthoth]

View attachment 83882




Not all of the offerings are animal.

Again, the culture of egypt.................... The leadership required public offerings just to survive.

'"""Followers of Kemetism, the revival and modern-day following of the ancient Egyptian religion, generally worship and perform offering to a few gods (Maat, Bastet, Anubis, among others), but recognize the existence of every god. Altars and offerings are most often constructed using a statue or two-dimensional representation of one or more given deities, as they serve as the focal point of worship. Other additional items include candles, votive offerings, prayer beads, incense burners, and one or more dishes for food offerings.[5] Most Kemetic offerings try to keep to tradition, offering the same or similar items the ancient Egyptians would have offered


Even the focal point of worship

and a whole host of variations of offerings and the reasons for them.

They did not like pork as an offering because the meat spoiled if not eaten almost immediately

 

[dybmh]

the tanakh is very clear that the dross are israel

No. You need to read the whole story.

The House of Israel ( as Constrasted with the House of Jacob ) are dross to the LORD at that time in that place, because... they mixed with the others and adopted their practices.

Go back chapter 20:

And say to them, Thus says the Lord God; In the day when I chose Israel, and raised my hand to the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I raised my hand to them, saying, I am the Lord your God;

See that ^^ there is a difference.​

​

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness; they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, by whose observance man shall live; and my sabbaths they greatly profaned; then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

​

Who is that??? In the wilderness? They are NOT the House of Jacob...​

And the mixed multitude that was among them had a strong craving; and the people of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us meat to eat?

Notice, Israel was influenced by the mixed multitude. Who are they?​

​

And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot, who were men, beside children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, and very many cattle.

The mixed multitude are the egyptians who wandered with them and mixed with them. The "House of Israel" is influences by them from the very begining​

​

Again, the culture of egypt.

Blah-blah-blah...

You said that the whole purpose of the temple is for guilt. You were wrong. The egyptians considered pharaoh a god. They're not Jewish. Case closed.

 

[rosends]

What obligations did Abram commit too?

Convincing the world about monotheism.

No god, unless perhaps a pharaoh gave anyone lands. Again, the narrative does not justify using that claim as true.

Belief in the narrative is part of the system. Denying the narrative does not equal the claim's not being true.

What plan, to destroy it again..... ?

No, to live on the earth in various places.

Yes, UN RES 181 did convey lands and likewise omitted jerusalem as a part of that conveyance. The religious function is why the location was required then as even now. The extremist expect to build a temple and return to animal sacrificing. The Jews dont have such a requirement but the dross and mislead actually still do and will break every rule in the book to make it happen.

Judaism does have a particular expectation of a messianic future which includes animal sacrifice. But the UN resolution wasn't a religious doctrine so what it included or didn't wasn't part of that theocratic expectation. If your understanding of Judaism is different then you will come to different conclusions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know, the news is getting weird.

Our conversation has bridged to the term israel as many consider israel as a tribe or people based on the terms Jew and judaism.

I have a hard time reducing the integrity of judaism and the jewish people to be reduced to the state of israel and the accounts that have been recorded over the last 70 yrs.

I see your sentiment trying to be humble to an equal measure but the rules of personal responsibility (commandments) have conveyed for 1000's of years because of the culture and long held application. A few religions have evolved from them based standards of civil participation. Most every continent as all four corners of the earth have people within that can and do keep the rules as they are as sound NOW as they were way back when.

I am sorry but I actually care and it is not my business to change the religion. Rather i focus on the good as the measure, rather than the bad.

AS a 'tribe' or family, I am aware that there are good and bad apples within each household. Again the good live with personal responsibility and the other have no care to keep the rules. If the tribal angle is the preferred choice of identifying which who is JEW, then the tribe should turn into christian where forgiving the corrupt actions is about normal.

I have............. house of judah. But i will observe other opinions.

OK

There you go, backing into Israel

Is that another slavery model, captivity?


So many are now actually iraquis? All before the creation of the Hebrew language? These events are well before Moses, the 'receiver' of torah.

You just twisted up again.............. Israel...1947, what you were talking about is well before torah, moses or anything known as israel.

Look, the word Israel has more than one meaning, and it is important for you to use the context of the discussion to discern which meaning I am using. For me to use Israel in one context, and then you to reply to it in a different context, is just not going to work.

Israel can mean any of the following:
1. the man Jacob
2. the tribal people descended from Jacob and his sons, referred to as b'nei Yisrael (Israelites, Children of Israel, People of Israel) which are composed of 12 tribes, referred to today as Jews.
3. The united Kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, Solomon
4. The northern Kingdom of Israel that had Samaria as its capital
5. The Land of Canaan, referred to as Eretz Yisrael, or Land of Israel.
6. The modern nation state of Israel.

In this discussion, I have many many times used the expression "People of Israel" which makes it crystal clear I am using definition #2.

So please stop this nonsense of replying as if I'm making remarks about the modern state of Israel. If you want to talk about that, please start a new thread.

 

[Bthoth]

Look, the word Israel has more than one meaning, and it is important for you to use the context of the discussion to discern which meaning I am using. For me to use Israel in one context, and then you to reply to it in a different context, is just not going to work.

Israel can mean any of the following:
1. the man Jacob
2. the tribal people descended from Jacob and his sons, referred to as b'nei Yisrael (Israelites, Children of Israel, People of Israel) which are composed of 12 tribes, referred to today as Jews.
3. The united Kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, Solomon
4. The northern Kingdom of Israel that had Samaria as its capital
5. The Land of Canaan, referred to as Eretz Yisrael, or Land of Israel.
6. The modern nation state of Israel.

In this discussion, I have many many times used the expression "People of Israel" which makes it crystal clear I am using definition #2.

So please stop this nonsense of replying as if I'm making remarks about the modern state of Israel. If you want to talk about that, please start a new thread.

Simply put you use the term to mean as you consider fit to dodge a conversations. Many Jews do not want anything to do with israel (the state).
Likewise, many jews are convert and have no relation to jacob or tribal in any nature.
The conversation topic is about slaves, which ones are those to you? During the time period claimed to be in egypt, the hebrew language nor torah even existed.

 

[Bthoth]

Convincing the world about monotheism.

Many have pursued monotheism, Ahkenatan to be specific began monotheism in the northern (New Kingdom/levant) egypt.

just as circumcision was initially in use, in egypt before even the stories of abram were in torah.

Belief in the narrative is part of the system.

Lousy system to require people to lie to themselves.

Denying the narrative does not equal the claim's not being true.

Just as the narrative does not make them true.

No, to live on the earth in various places.

Jews live all over the world and the majority have never had a use for a state called israel

Judaism does have a particular expectation of a messianic future which includes animal sacrifice.

That's new to me. Why would messiah need or include animal sacrificing? Just because the narrative says so?

But the UN resolution wasn't a religious doctrine

Best kind of human resolution, about like medical advancements above and beyond theology.

so what it included or didn't wasn't part of that theocratic expectation.

Theocracy is not a democracy of free people making decisions of moral conscious. If you expect israel to be another iran, then like iran it will fail.

If your understanding of Judaism is different then you will come to different conclusions.

I am learning that.

Judaism is far more important than the state of israel. People can be good and retain personal responsibility without that state and no messiah will require animal sacrificing or oppression of widows and orphans to be compliant with g-d.

One of the key items that i recall is that messiah will reaffirm the commandments to be a good in the current as when conveyed along time ago.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Simply put you use the term to mean as you consider fit to dodge a conversations. Many Jews do not want anything to do with israel (the state).
Likewise, many jews are convert and have no relation to jacob or tribal in any nature.
The conversation topic is about slaves, which ones are those to you? During the time period claimed to be in egypt, the hebrew language nor torah even existed.

Don't be ridiculous. You deliberately misconstrued what I was talking about. If you cannot have a discussion in good faith, then please don't address me.

As to conversion... it is FAR more than adopting Judaism. It is adoption into the People.

Let me give you a similar example, going back to the Lakota tribe. The easiest way to be Lakota is simply to be born one. But on very rare occasions, outsiders are adopted into the Lakota. Same with the People of Israel.

My conversation with you has not discussed slaves. I have never made the claim that the Torah existed when we were slaves in Egypt -- straw man. Please stop trying to change the topic. Focus like a lazer beam. OUR discussion is "What is a Jew."

 

[dybmh]

During the time period claimed to be in egypt, the hebrew language the hebrew language nor torah even existed.

Not true. The earliest archaeological evidence of the Hebrew laguage is approx 1000BCE. And the language did not magically poof into existence, it predates this. That puts it easily within the time period claimed to be in egypt. And the "Torah" is a set of teachings, not a specific scroll.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jews live all over the world and the majority have never had a use for a state called israel

There have been three nation states named Israel in history, all of them populated by the PEOPLE of Israel.
1. The united Kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, Solomon
2. The northern Kingdom of Israel which had Samaria as its capital
3. The modern state of Israel that exists today.
This is not including those related kingdoms called Judah and Judea, which are similarly Jewish states.

For the past 2000 years, Jews in diaspora end our Passover Seders with "Next year in Jerusalem." So you would have to say that every religious Jew (and likely most secular ones as well) very much have a use for the nation of Israel.

 

[Bthoth]

No. You need to read the whole story.

That is what I asked you to do. Read the whole chapter to comprehend that the dross are not the Jews.

The House of Israel ( as Constrasted with the House of Jacob ) are dross to the LORD at that time in that place, because... they mixed with the others and adopted their practices.

No, the dross are judged to be oppressing women and children (widows and the fatherless), keeping idolatry and misleading people.

About exactly what israel has been doing.

Go back chapter 20:

And say to them, Thus says the Lord God; In the day when I chose Israel, and raised my hand to the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I raised my hand to them, saying, I am the Lord your God;

I did not know that a god spoke the people of egypt (unless a pharaoh of course)

See that ^^ there is a difference.​

Sure is. The good keep the commandments, the dross maintain idolatry for a city/temple/mount............. and like you willing to oppress others to maintain your dominance.

​

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness; they walked not in my statutes,

Just like you, claiming the rules are "irrelevant"

and they despised my judgments,

Exactly what Ezek 22 stated.....

by whose observance man shall live

yes the good (the Jew) keep the commandments (rules of personal responsibility),

; and my sabbaths they greatly profaned; then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

​

Who is that??? In the wilderness? They are NOT the House of Jacob...​

Ooops... the line is gather unto jerusalem and then melt the dross. Not a house or the JEW but the people of israel, as identified, the dross.

And the mixed multitude that was among them had a strong craving; and the people of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us meat to eat?

Of course, people need to eat..... That's normal.

Notice, Israel was influenced by the mixed multitude. Who are they?​

No idea what set of scripture that you are using this time.
You jump all over the place. I am guessing that you are asking others how to answer my comments.

​

And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses

the largest city of ancient egypt?

to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot, who were men, beside children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, and very many cattle.

Sounds like a migration

The mixed multitude are the egyptians who wandered with them and mixed with them. The "House of Israel" is influences by them from the very begining​

​

Blah-blah-blah...

So you know the influence has been ongoing and yet upset

You said that the whole purpose of the temple is for guilt. You were wrong. The egyptians considered pharaoh a god. They're not Jewish. Case closed.

View attachment 83883

That is exactly what you use your teachers as, hence you enjoy telling me about your training.

Same system of 'gods chosen'

Remember each that are circumcised is because a pharaoh required it as the starting point of that requirement too. Did your training by those you consider chosen educate you on the histories of mankind before teaching you their narrative to hate egypt?

 

[Bthoth]

There have been three nation states named Israel in history, all of them populated by the PEOPLE of Israel.

Evidence?
just because herod was a king appointed did not make the state an israel.

1. The united Kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, Solomon

That has been long contested. Cleopatra of egypt was in that land even up to 30 BCE of the ptolemaic dynasty of egypt

2. The northern Kingdom of Israel which had Samaria as its capital
3. The modern state of Israel that exists today.
This is not including those related kingdoms called Judah and Judea, which are similarly Jewish states.

Alexander the great took over the levant in the 350 bc era in the 900 bc period pharaoh sheshonq 1 took over the levant.

For the past 2000 years, Jews in diaspora end our Passover Seders with "Next year in Jerusalem." So you would have to say that every religious Jew (and likely most secular ones as well) very much have a use for the nation of Israel.

Jerusalem is not israel even now, still .....except as illegal occupation.......... UN re 2334, 181, 242, 476, 478 Just off the top of my head.

 

[Bthoth]

Not true. The earliest archaeological evidence of the Hebrew laguage is approx 1000BCE.

Well after moses.... 1350 BC period

And the language did not magically poof into existence, it predates this.

People created all languages.

That puts it easily within the time period claimed to be in egypt.

Egypt ruled the levant almost all the way thru to 30 bc when cleopatra was walking the streets

And the "Torah" is a set of teachings, not a specific scroll.

OK..... Midrash is not torah, nor is talmud

View attachment 83890

 

[Bthoth]

As to conversion... it is FAR more than adopting Judaism. It is adoption into the People.

Into ..... being civil and keeping the rules is most important. Not submission to your narrative

Let me give you a similar example, going back to the Lakota tribe. The easiest way to be Lakota is simply to be born one. But on very rare occasions, outsiders are adopted into the Lakota. Same with the People of Israel.

Again, you like using the tribal angle of the North american indigenous people. It's cute to say the least.

My conversation with you has not discussed slaves.

the topic is about hebrews, slaves not tribes of north america.

I have never made the claim that the Torah existed when we were slaves in Egypt

"WE" ??

-- straw man. Please stop trying to change the topic.

I am focused, you just enjoy and expect to control

Focus like a lazer beam. OUR discussion is "What is a Jew."

Jews are civil human beings. Please do not try to reduce the integrity of Jews or judaism to a lower class like the dross

 

[IndigoChild5559]

just because herod was a king appointed did not make the state an israel.

Another exampple of you trying to create a straw man to knock down. Herod was king of Judea, not Isarel.

Jerusalem is not israel even now, still .....except as illegal occupation.......... UN re 2334, 181, 242, 476, 478 Just off the top of my head.

Modern Israel declared Jerusalem its eternal capital in 1949. It was also the capital of a number of different Jewish nation states, such as Judea, Judah, and the united Kingdom of Israel.