Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[nash8]

There is nothing innate about homosexuality that is wrong. It is bigotry on the part of the culture. There are innate factors wrong with ******* children.

and 50-18 is weird but not wrong. why? Because 18 isn't a child. I don't care if its a 18 year old and a 12 year old its still wrong. I don't care if its a 16 year old and a 13 year old. Its still wrong.

What age group do you consider it right? For example a 15 year old and a 17 year old? What about a 14 year old and a 15 year old? What about two 16 year olds? What about two 15 year olds?

And on that note, why is a 50 and an 18 year old wierd?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

What age group do you consider it right? For example a 15 year old and a 17 year old? What about a 14 year old and a 15 year old? What about two 16 year olds? What about two 15 year olds?

I am not able to judge exactly what month/day a person is able to be sexually active. Two 15 year olds doesn't strike me personally as bad so long as its concentual.

But its blatently obvious that a 10 year old is never suited for sexual intercourse especially with a full blown adult. And to ever think that its not child abuse borders on insanity.

 

[nash8]

I am not able to judge exactly what month/day a person is able to be sexually active. Two 15 year olds doesn't strike me personally as bad so long as its concentual.

But its blatently obvious that a 10 year old is never suited for sexual intercourse especially with a full blown adult. And to ever think that its not child abuse borders on insanity.

Agreed.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I am not able to judge exactly what month/day a person is able to be sexually active. Two 15 year olds doesn't strike me personally as bad so long as its concentual.

But its blatently obvious that a 10 year old is never suited for sexual intercourse especially with a full blown adult. And to ever think that its not child abuse borders on insanity.

OK Monk, you have made your opinion abundantly clear. That said, I would never have allowed my daughter to marry at 16 years old but her grandmother did and celebrated her 50th wedding anniversary.

I have but two questions for you.

1. Who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong?

2. What do you suggest can be done about it?

I don't want anyone dictating to me what is right and what is wrong and telling me I should allow a 16 year old child of mine to be married.

So how are you going to enforce your judgements on others?

Should they be able to enforce their judgements on you?

I am personally opposed to child marriage, but what right do I have to judge other cultures? If a man marries a child and is a faithful loving caring husband to her, that is different from nabbing her off the street and leaving her alone and abused and saying this is the same thing.

 

[FearGod]

I am personally opposed to child marriage, but what right do I have to judge other cultures? If a man marries a child and is a faithful loving caring husband to her, that is different from nabbing her off the street and leaving her alone and abused and saying this is the same thing.

Perfectly said. :yes:

 

[Debater Slayer]

Perfectly said. :yes:

FearGod, I'm all for appreciating and respecting diversity, but when a child dies because of bleeding after intercourse, don't you think that's enough reason to condemn the practice of having sex with such young children even if they have hit puberty? They are still underdeveloped; there are universal medical information indicating this, so it's not simply a matter of cultural relativism.

 

[Reverend Rick]

FearGod, I'm all for appreciating and respecting diversity, but when a child dies because of bleeding after intercourse, don't you think that's enough reason to condemn the practice of having sex with such young children even if they have hit puberty? They are still underdeveloped; there are universal medical information indicating this, so it's not simply a matter of cultural relativism.

D.S., He called this man a monster. Many moderate Muslims have tried to raise the age of marriage in their countries.

 

[Debater Slayer]

D.S., He called this man a monster. Many moderate Muslims have tried to raise the age of marriage in their countries.

Fair enough, and I applaud such efforts. I was just asking because FearGod's posts seemed to defend the practice of marrying children. He is free to correct me if I'm wrong and he meant otherwise, of course.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm going to repost this, because it hasn't been addressed:

10 year old woman....oy. This is a first. Please look at this:

Adolescent Women and Their Infants: at Risk for Injury, Illness, and Death
- Adolescents age 15 through 19 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy or child birth as those over age 20; girls under age 15 are five times more likely to die.
- Each year, at least two million young women in developing countries undergo unsafe abortion. Unsafe abortion can have devastating consequences, including cervical tearing, perforated uterus, hemorrhage, chronic pelvic infection, infertility, and death.
- In Nigeria, complications of abortion account for 72 percent of all deaths in young women under age 19; moreover, half (50 percent) of all maternal deaths result from illegal abortion among Nigerian adolescents.
- Infants of adolescents are at increased risk for death. In fact, the infants of adolescent mothers are more likely to die before their first birthday than are the infants of older mothers.
- Complications during childbirth account for almost 25 percent of newborn deaths. Preterm delivery and low birth weight are other reasons for deaths among infants born to adolescent mothers.


Why Girls Are More Vulnerable than Older Women
- Many biological, economic, and cultural factors—such as poverty, malnutrition, immature reproductive tract, child marriage, and gender inequities may compromise the health of a pregnant adolescent
- Child marriage is one of the cultural factors that work against adolescent women. Married women under age 18 report being less able than older married women to discuss contraceptive use with their husband. Thus child marriage is also associated with early childbearing. In Chad, Guinea, Mali, and Niger—where child marriage is prevalent—half of all teen women give birth before age 18.
- Child marriage also puts young women at greater risk of HIV. Results from a study in Kenya and Zambia showed that married 16- to 19-year-old females were 75 percent more likely to have HIV than their sexually active unmarried peers.
- Gender inequities put girls at greater risk than boys and affect many aspects of young women’s lives including reduced opportunities for education, employment, and control over their own reproductive health. Lack of education can also affect health when it limits young women’s knowledge about nutrition, birth spacing, and contraception.

Source: Adolescent Maternal Mortality: An Overlooked Crisis

A girl at 10 years old is much less capable of negotiating child spacing, family planning, contraceptive use, and knowing of access and use of prenatal care than an older educated woman who has a more developed reproductive system and experience with gynecological health professionals.

You may personally think your tradition and your marriage are examples of what is ideal. Unfortunately the newborns and the young child-bearing females in your reasoning do not fare as well according to the statistics. Not if they are placed at risk for health complications or death due to cultural pressure to conform.

I urge you to reconsider your position on the matter.

.

.

.

This was intended for Farouk and for anyone who is more "hands off" with practices such as this. It isn't so much as a simple cultural taboo as it is a danger to young females. It also is not an indictment on Islam specifically, but a global phenomenon where girls are consistently sold or married without the knowledge of the danger of this practice.

The 11-year-old Yemeni girl who died as a result stands as evidence that corroborates what I provided.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It isn't so much as a simple cultural taboo as it is a danger to young females. It also is not an indictment on Islam specifically, but a global phenomenon where girls are consistently sold or married without the knowledge of the danger of this practice.

The 11-year-old Yemeni girl who died as a result stands as evidence that corroborates what I provided.

:yes:

When someone feels fortunate or privileged not to have been born a member of a certain gender because of cultural practices that target said gender, it seems to me that should make them reconsider their culture's values and practices.

 

[FearGod]

FearGod, I'm all for appreciating and respecting diversity, but when a child dies because of bleeding after intercourse, don't you think that's enough reason to condemn the practice of having sex with such young children even if they have hit puberty? They are still underdeveloped; there are universal medical information indicating this, so it's not simply a matter of cultural relativism.

i have made it clear that it is an awful practice,but i refuse to accuse religion to be the cause but it is a cultural thing which do exist in other parts of the world.

The worst of all is child abuse which is a big problem worldwide.

i have already posted this :

According to UNICEF, Africa has the highest incidence rates of child marriage, with over 70% of girls marrying under the age of 18, in three nations.[2] However, one must note that this UNICEF report is based on data that is derived from a small sample survey between 1995 and 2004, and the current rate is unknown given lack of infrastructure and in some cases, regional violence.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage








Child Sexual abuse in the USA;

• Child rape occurs every two minutes
• 1 in 3 girls will be sexually molested before the age 17
• 1 in 6 boys will be sexually molested before the age 17 (1 in 5 in Canada)
• A sex offender will molest an average of 120 victims, most of whom do not report it
• 90% of molesters abuse children they know
• Oftentimes, a sexually abused child is abused in other ways

Overall U.S. child abuse statistics

• Every 10 seconds a child is abused or raped
• 3.3 million child abuse reports in 2010
• For every report 2 more go unreported = many millions abused annually
• 61,000 reports to Child Protective services per week = 6 per minute
• Of 1.5 million runaways 85% are fleeing some form of abuse
• Only 10% of abusers do not know their abuser well
• Abuse victims = about 48% male, 52% female
• Every race and religion sees child abuse

Reference : Statistics for child abuse provided by Ark of Hope for Children

 

[Debater Slayer]

i have made it clear that it is an awful practice,but i refuse to accuse religion to be the cause but it is a cultural thing which do exist in other parts of the world.

The worst of all is child abuse which is a big problim worldwide.

i have already posted this :

According to UNICEF, Africa has the highest incidence rates of child marriage, with over 70% of girls marrying under the age of 18, in three nations.[2] However, one must note that this UNICEF report is based on data that is derived from a small sample survey between 1995 and 2004, and the current rate is unknown given lack of infrastructure and in some cases, regional violence.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage







Child Sexual abuse in the USA;

• Child rape occurs every two minutes
• 1 in 3 girls will be sexually molested before the age 17
• 1 in 6 boys will be sexually molested before the age 17 (1 in 5 in Canada)
• A sex offender will molest an average of 120 victims, most of whom do not report it
• 90% of molesters abuse children they know
• Oftentimes, a sexually abused child is abused in other ways

Overall U.S. child abuse statistics

• Every 10 seconds a child is abused or raped
• 3.3 million child abuse reports in 2010
• For every report 2 more go unreported = many millions abused annually
• 61,000 reports to Child Protective services per week = 6 per minute
• Of 1.5 million runaways 85% are fleeing some form of abuse
• Only 10% of abusers do not know their abuser well
• Abuse victims = about 48% male, 52% female
• Every race and religion sees child abuse

Reference : Statistics for child abuse provided by Ark of Hope for Children

I agree that the practice primarily seems to be cultural. Some people use religion to justify it, but there are others who don't and still endorse it anyway.

I would say that child marriage such as the one that resulted in the Yemeni girl's death is child abuse as well, and blatant child abuse at that.

 

[The Boogeyman]

Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist

Religion of peace. Religion of science. These are epithets we hear about Islam from Muslims all the time. And then we see stories like this, which make us realize that these aren't the case. And it's not just science which says something like this is just ignorant. Common sense does too.

So why do Muslims practice this? Do they not know that a child's body is not mature enough to handle this? Nor are their minds developed enough for this. It's just plain ignorant to think that a child is ready for marriage, and all the things that go along with it. Do Muslims not know that science has already determined that things like this are a bad idea?

Reading this actually made me a bit nauseous...

 

[Poeticus]

I would say that child marriage such as the one that resulted on the Yemeni girl's death is child abuse as well, and blatant child abuse at that.

And, he agrees with you. That's what him, Assad91, and Reverend have been saying for the past day and half. But, for some reason, Assad91 and FearGod have been lumped in with Farouk's idiotic and horrid comments - in fact, just because of Farouk's idiotic comments - Assad91 and FearGod have had to suffer on a fairly modest forum site such as RF the horrid religious libel that has plagued this thread non-stop. I don't know how many times Reverend, an admin, can say it - but Assad91 and FearGod do not endorse Farouk's views.

 

[Levite]

Peace
Lets put everything in clear perspective so not to puts words in my mouth.
I married my wife when she was 10 years old.My wife had her menses when she was 7 years old.My wife memorized the Noble Quraan when she was 8 years old.Not read but memorized.My wife never when to school but was educated from home.She memorized her maths tables 1 to 12 at the age of 6.There is much,much more i can tell you about her achievements but believe me it will hurt your heart.My wife was an intellectual woman and not a child at the age of 10 as you claim.Now if you did not reach maturity at her age then stop envying her.
Futher from my 14 children 10 have memorized the Noble Quraan before they were 10 years old.The other 4 memorized it before they were 20 years old.I have 6 daughters and i had them all married after they had their menses.Note i have given them sufficent time after their menses before marriage.2 of my daughters are married to doctors and after marriage they also studyied and became doctors.Now should i continue and tell you about my sons,grand children and great children.no i don't think you got the stomach for the rest.
The bottom line is everthing depends on your upbringing.My entire family is brought up according to principles and values that our fore-fathers have set.we are following the same principles.We are successful because our moral values comes first.According to the teachings of the elders in our family if we don't marry our children (both male and female) after they reach maturity,as early as possible, then any sin they commit falls on the shoulders of parents.
Now i want you understand something very clearly.I asked the question, and a simple one it was,when does a child become a woman?Note every member knew the answer to this question but they had a problem spewing it out simply because it will have answered the question of child marriage.
In Islam there is no restriction on the age that one should get family members married.So as long as they reach maturity it is the duty of parents to get their children married.It is my family prerogative to get our children married as early as possible after they attain maturity.If someone wants to get their children married at a late age then there is no harm.Note we base our female maturity on their menses and not on their age.
Finally i want everyone that has used this thread to bash Islam to note.Its time every Christian,Jew,..or whatever religion you belong to you should go and study what your own scriptures state about setting moral standards.Believe me some of you are in for a shock.
Peace
Farouk

The three things I note from this response are:

1. You have no awareness that maturity might mean anything more than the beginning of physical puberty. Your wife may or may not have had her period when you married her, but all those achievements you mention simply indicate you married a very smart child, with a rare medical condition.

2. You still do not understand that a child, whether or not they may have somehow begun physical puberty ridiculously early in some medical anomaly, regardless of how intellectually precocious they may be, are nonetheless psychologically and emotionally incapable of giving informed consent for marriage or sex. That was true of your wife, and it was true of the daughters you apparently married off like it was the ninth century. The fact that they all may have ended up resigned to their fate doesn't change the facts.

3. Not everyone on this thread who disagrees with you has used it as an opportunity to bash Islam. Several, myself included, have expressed the opinion that what you do in your culture comes from problems in your culture, for which Islam is misused as justification. Some of the others who expressed or alluded to the same critique were themselves Muslims. And, to be clear, if some backward radical of my religion tried to justify having sex with little children because of their understanding of Jewish law, I would be just as quick-- if not quicker-- to condemn then and reject their claim that what they were doing had any legitimacy. Those who have seen my posts here know I am not shy of criticizing the trends in the far-right communities of my own faith that I find troubling, or unethical trends in secular American culture.

This has nothing to do with singling out you or your culture while ignoring the problems of others and their cultures.

It has to do with you trying to justify having sex with children and marrying children off like feudal serfs when they're too young to give informed consent.

The fact that you may use Islam as part of your excuse makes little or no difference.

 

[FearGod]

No it is not. They may start developing breasts at that age but not bleeding. If they do its an extreme rarity. Where are you getting this information?

No they may have the period at age of 8 and it is medically normal.

The average age of menarche is 13 years, but it can be as early as 8 years and as late as 18 years and still be normal. Premature or delayed menarche should be investigated - ie before 8 years or after 16 years.[1]

Reference : Normal Menstruation | Doctor | Patient.co.uk

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And, he agrees with you. That's what him, Assad91, and Reverend have been saying for the past day and half. But, for some reason, Assad91 and FearGod have been lumped in with Farouk's idiotic and horrid comments - in fact, just because of Farouk's idiotic comments - Assad91 and FearGod have had to suffer on a fairly modest forum site such as RF the horrid religious libel that has plagued this thread non-stop. I don't know how many times Reverend, an admin, can say it - but Assad91 and FearGod do not endorse Farouk's views.

They may not agree with or endorse Farouk's views, but they are making excuses for them and dismissing a lot of objection to them. Nobody that I have seen has accused them of agreeing with them, but instead have accused them of possessing an attitude which is more permissive to the act of child abuse by their refusal to sufficiently object to the practice of child marriage on moral grounds.

 

[LuisDantas]

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[FearGod]

They may not agree with or endorse Farouk's views, but they are making excuses for them and dismissing a lot of objection to them. Nobody that I have seen has accused them of agreeing with them, but instead have accused them of possessing an attitude which is more permissive to the act of child abuse by their refusal to sufficiently object to the practice of child marriage on moral grounds.

i aint making any excuse to anyone,but i just point to one fact and which is that such practice is cultural in origin and religion has nothing to do with it.

One RF member said that it isn't normal for a girl to have a period at the age of 10,so just to correct his/her information i pointed out to the fact that it is normal for some girs to have it at 8 which i supported with a reputable medical reference,so that doesn't mean i defend child marriage,but just correcting one's information.

 

[Alceste]

i aint making any excuse to anyone,but i just point to one fact and which is that such practice is cultural in origin and religion has nothing to do with it.

One RF member said that it isn't normal for a girl to have a period at the age of 10,so just to correct his/her information i pointed out to the fact that it is normal for some girs to have it at 8 which i supported with a reputable medical reference,so that doesn't mean i defend child marriage,but just correcting one's information.

Irrelevant. The entire notion that menstruation demonstrates that a female child is ready for sex is ignorant and absurd.