You don't show respect for my religion!

[ChristineES]

There is another thing I just thought of to consider: I shouldn't have to defend my faith with someone if I don't want to. If I want to defend my faith, that is would be a different story, but if someone does not feel like defending their faith during social time, they shouldn't have to.

 

[Penumbra]

1) What does it mean to respect something?

To consider it worthy to a reasonable degree, or to hold it in high regard.

2) What does it mean to show respect for something?

I would assume that words and actions would inherently show whether something is respected by the person or not. The specific way of going about respecting or disrespecting something will likely depend on how much class a person has.

3) If I think a religion is silly/wrong should I respect it?

I don't see why you should. I don't respect things I find to be both silly and wrong. On the other hand, I respect things that I observe to be reasonable, albeit probably wrong.

I do, however, support freedom to believe and do whatever, as long as acts don't violate appropriate secular law.

4) If I think a religion is silly/wrong should I, for the sake of good relations, pretend I respect it/show respect for it even if don't in my heart?

I wouldn't.

I don't make a habit of discussing religion in the wrong time and place. When I discuss religion, it's either because someone has brought it up to me, or because I come to place specifically for discussing it (such as RF). So, when the topic of religion pops up in the wrong time or place (such as at work, where people can potentially get fired based on what they say about it, or if a sick friend in the hospital is putting forth an idea about some religious concept), I just ignore it or provide an answer that neither shows respect or disrespect.

5) Am I wrong to not respect other peoples religions?

I don't see why you would be.

The situation with my friend happened a few years ago.
She, I and a couple of other friends of ours where sitting around doing nothing, and for some reason we started talking about religion.

None of the people in the group are usually easily offended, so no one where really holding back or trying to be polite.

She happend to be the only religious person in the group, so it basically ended up being a her against the rest argument. And I guess we did walk all over her beliefs just a bit which hurt her feelings I guess. I didn't actually know she was very religious untill after this event. For the rest of us it was just academic, but for her it was something importent in her life.

I think she played the "you don't respect my religion"-card at the time just to get the rest of us to shut up. But she has said it on a few other occations after that as well.

But the question isn't really about her and this specific episode.
I have heard other people play the "you don't respect my religion"-card, and I am just trying to figure out what it means and how to deal with it.

That is entirely possible actually
I am not good at keeping my mouth shut when I disagree with people.

I guess that is true.

If we take a step back and look at a situation where the person playing the "you don't respect my religion"-card is not a close friend. How would I communicate that even if I don't really respect their religion, I do have respect for them?

People that are sheltered from opposing ideas would do well to come out of their shelter eventually. If their ideas demand respect, they probably aren't worth respecting, because respect is earned.

That doesn't mean we have to make a habit of going around forcefully pulling people out of their shelters, but it does mean we don't have to go around making sure we never breach anyone's shelter. In other words, if a bunch of friends are having an academic discussion about religion, and one of the friends has a problem with it, it's her that needs to adjust rather than the rest of the group. (Taking into account the time and place, of course.)

Two things:

If your friends don't have your respect, why are they your friends?

If you can't say something nice about someone, you can at least keep quiet.

There's a difference between respecting ideas and respecting the people that put the ideas forth, although there is naturally some connection between the two.

I think it's worth noting that what is best for someone is not always what is nicest for a person. Sometimes the best thing and the nicest thing are the same thing, but sometimes they are not.

In an ideal sense, I try to mold my behavior such that it promotes the self-actualization/growth of myself and others, which to me almost always means civil and polite, but doesn't always mean nice and accepting.

 

[sojourner]

This was the example in the OP:


How is this hurtful?

And if that's disrespectful, how is it any less disrespectful for the religious person to demand that her friend stay silent and not say what she thinks?

In a conversation between friends, which is more disrespectful: "I disagree with your religious beliefs" or "I demand that you not say anything to challenge my religious beliefs"?

First of all, the example isn't particularly in what was quoted. I rather suspect that what gets said goes much farther than that. The OP states that the friendship is going down the tubes because the poster says things that are taken as disrespectful and hurtful. If that's the case, how is it showing respect to the friend by continually saying hurtful things?

Second, I fail to understand why you are, as a rule, so unforgiving of the religious. Just because we believe in something you find unworthy of your time and effort does not mean that you are justified in continually putting it down in front of us. You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person -- I fail to see why you fall so short on the issue of being civil and courteous.

It is hurtful because we invest A LOT of ourselves in our religious endeavors. To have the object of all our hard work continually bashed IS TO SHOW DISRESPECT -- no matter how you feel about it, yourself. If one of my friends did that to me, and I said to him, "enough!" Ya know what? HE'D STOP! Because he respects me and because he respects me, he respects how I feel.

Third, I doubt that many (if any) atheists invest as much of themselves in dissing religion as theists do in furthering themselves and the world through it. Therefore, it shows more disrespect to continually put down religion in front of a religious person than it does for the religious person to request that the put downs stop. The disrespect isn't in the "challenge." But it generally goes beyond "challenge" to "ridicule." There's a marked difference between the two.

One's dismissal of something does not give them license to be rude about it.

 

[sojourner]

sojourner (or anyone else who feels like responding), here's an example for you to consider:

When addressing clergy, pastors or the like, I don't use religious titles or honorifics. I won't call a priest "father", a bishop "monsignior", or a minister "reverend", but I will call them "Mr. (or Ms.) ________" or, if I know them personally, address them by their first name. I deliberately show no respect for their religious office, but I do give them the courtesy I'd give any person.

Am I being disrespectful toward religion by doing this? Should my religious friends consider me less of a friend because of it?

No, but it does show social disrespect to the person. It's like refusing to call a doctor "Doctor," because you don't "believe" in medicine. We have these titles as part of our call to ministry (which is a HUGE part of who we are). In other words, it's how we identify ourselves. It just is not socially acceptable (in this country, anyway) to be that familiar with someone you don't know well enough to call by their first name, unless they give you permission to do so.

Is there some valid reason why you have an aversion to using titles?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Mohammed, Mo, Mike, or whatever you wish to be called,
Explain to me the interpretation of Surah 2:40(Don't worry, I've already read it, and the surrounding text, in Arabic).

Ok what is your point.

 

[lunakilo]

First of all, the example isn't particularly in what was quoted. I rather suspect that what gets said goes much farther than that. The OP states that the friendship is going down the tubes because the poster says things that are taken as disrespectful and hurtful. If that's the case, how is it showing respect to the friend by continually saying hurtful things?

I gave a few more details about the specific situation in an other post:

The situation with my friend happened a few years ago.
She, I and a couple of other friends of ours where sitting around doing nothing, and for some reason we started talking about religion.

None of the people in the group are usually easily offended, so no one where really holding back or trying to be polite.

She happend to be the only religious person in the group, so it basically ended up being a her against the rest argument. And I guess we did walk all over her beliefs just a bit which hurt her feelings I guess. I didn't actually know she was very religious untill after this event. For the rest of us it was just academic, but for her it was something importent in her life.

And I just used that particular situation as an example, the question is more general that this.

Second, I fail to understand why you are, as a rule, so unforgiving of the religious. Just because we believe in something you find unworthy of your time and effort does not mean that you are justified in continually putting it down in front of us. You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person -- I fail to see why you fall so short on the issue of being civil and courteous.

I was not aware that I am unforgiving of the religious.
I was not aware that I was continually putting down your (or other peoples) faith.
I usually try to be both civil and courteous, if I am not being civil and courteous, please tell me what I am doing wrong.

It is hurtful because we invest A LOT of ourselves in our religious endeavors. To have the object of all our hard work continually bashed IS TO SHOW DISRESPECT -- no matter how you feel about it, yourself. If one of my friends did that to me, and I said to him, "enough!" Ya know what? HE'D STOP! Because he respects me and because he respects me, he respects how I feel.

When you say "it is hurtful" then what are you refereing to? My not respecting your religion or the bashing of religion?

Third, I doubt that many (if any) atheists invest as much of themselves in dissing religion as theists do in furthering themselves and the world through it. Therefore, it shows more disrespect to continually put down religion in front of a religious person than it does for the religious person to request that the put downs stop. The disrespect isn't in the "challenge." But it generally goes beyond "challenge" to "ridicule." There's a marked difference between the two.

One's dismissal of something does not give them license to be rude about it.

In my experience the line between questioning religion and attacking religion is placed differently depending on who you ask.
Some people are easily offended others are not.

What you see as dissing others (probably me included) would see as questioning or challenging.
This is a Religious Education Forum, and I am here to try to learn. I don't see how I can learn if I don't ask questions and challenge the responses.
If it makes you feel better I can tell you that I don't usually talk to my friends in real life like I do here

Can you show me an example of a "challenge" that has gone to far an turned into "ridicule" so that I can understand where the line is?

 

[darkendless]

The way I see it if people are offended by what is said abou their religious beliefs, they shouldn't put them out there to be hurt.

Religion should not be respected. People should be respected but should not be distinguised based on how important their religion is to them.

Your friend seems to be one of those people who likes to flaunt their beliefs but can't take any form of criticism. These people often become sensistive when you question them but are more than willing to throw out criticism of their own.

If people are offended due to their religious beliefs thats their problem (within reason of course). I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that religion is held to a higher standard than everything else. The fact that a persons beliefs are important to them should be of no concern to me because if religion is not discussed, there is no real need to offend them.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I never openly mock someone's beliefs even when I disagree with them; it's childish and only causes trouble for no good reason. Constructive criticism is the best though.

 

[darkendless]

I never openly mock someone's beliefs even when I disagree with them; it's childish and only causes trouble for no good reason. Constructive criticism is the best though.

I feel though that a lot of people who openly throw their beliefs around (especially if they are abrahamic religions) cannot take even constructive criticism.

How is it possible to be constructive in every situation? From experience its quite hard to bite your tongue when dealing with people who start talking about how true their religion is.

I guess some people need to learn to take what they dish out? With regard to the OP its hard to see that religion would be a problem except that the friend is openly throwing about their faith. If they didn't preach there would not be an issue. Its hard to know whether to give them a harsh lesson or just shut up? Personally I can only take so much religious preaching before I snap. Should people like me forego what we really think to protect someones beliefs? Do personal beliefs command such respect? If so why?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First of all, the example isn't particularly in what was quoted. I rather suspect that what gets said goes much farther than that. The OP states that the friendship is going down the tubes because the poster says things that are taken as disrespectful and hurtful. If that's the case, how is it showing respect to the friend by continually saying hurtful things?

No, it doesn't state that, actually. All the OP says is that religion comes up in conversation - though we don't know who brings it up - and that in these situations, when luna doesn't "show respect" for her friend's religion, her friend takes offense - though we don't know whether this offense is reasonable.

Second, I fail to understand why you are, as a rule, so unforgiving of the religious. Just because we believe in something you find unworthy of your time and effort does not mean that you are justified in continually putting it down in front of us. You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person -- I fail to see why you fall so short on the issue of being civil and courteous.

Hmm. Personally, I think I usually treat religion with more courtesy than is appropriate, given the context I usually encounter it: as something unwanted that is being imposed on me.

Normally (outside of the context of debates on specific religious topics like we have here), I go out of my way to not trample on people's individual beliefs; the extent of my "putting it down in front of you" is to say that I support your right to believe as you please, but I don't want to pay for your church. If you think that "falls short" of being civil and courteous, then I don't think that your view of civility and courtesy (whatever it happens to be) is reasonable.

It is hurtful because we invest A LOT of ourselves in our religious endeavors. To have the object of all our hard work continually bashed IS TO SHOW DISRESPECT -- no matter how you feel about it, yourself. If one of my friends did that to me, and I said to him, "enough!" Ya know what? HE'D STOP! Because he respects me and because he respects me, he respects how I feel.

You know, I think you're reading things into the OP that just aren't there. It's pretty vague on the details; I suppose the scenario you lay out might fit it, but it would also fit the OP if the "problem" was that luna didn't express "enough" interest when her friend tells her about what happens at her church.

You're assuming that the situation is one of luna's creation; that isn't anywhere in the OP. You're assuming that her friend's feelings of offense are reasonable; that isn't in the OP, either.

Maybe it would help if lunakilo could elaborate on the situation.

Third, I doubt that many (if any) atheists invest as much of themselves in dissing religion as theists do in furthering themselves and the world through it. Therefore, it shows more disrespect to continually put down religion in front of a religious person than it does for the religious person to request that the put downs stop. The disrespect isn't in the "challenge." But it generally goes beyond "challenge" to "ridicule." There's a marked difference between the two.

One's dismissal of something does not give them license to be rude about it.

Why do you think that lunakilo is being rude to her friend?

 

[lunakilo]

You're assuming that the situation is one of luna's creation; that isn't anywhere in the OP. You're assuming that her friend's feelings of offense are reasonable; that isn't in the OP, either.

Maybe it would help if lunakilo could elaborate on the situation.

Actually I did ...

The situation with my friend happened a few years ago.
She, I and a couple of other friends of ours where sitting around doing nothing, and for some reason we started talking about religion.

None of the people in the group are usually easily offended, so no one where really holding back or trying to be polite.

She happend to be the only religious person in the group, so it basically ended up being a her against the rest argument. And I guess we did walk all over her beliefs just a bit which hurt her feelings I guess. I didn't actually know she was very religious untill after this event. For the rest of us it was just academic, but for her it was something importent in her life.

I think she played the "you don't respect my religion"-card at the time just to get the rest of us to shut up. But she has said it on a few other occations after that as well.

But the question isn't really about her and this specific episode.
I have heard other people play the "you don't respect my religion"-card, and I am just trying to figure out what it means and how to deal with it.

I am not sure how the discussion started. Maybe it was my religious friend, maybe it was one of the others, I don't remember.

And I had no idea she would be so upset. I am actually caught between being sorry that I hurt her feelings and being angry at her for her reactions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, but it does show social disrespect to the person.

Failing to address a friend's priest with honorific adjectives "shows social disrespect" to the friend?

It's like refusing to call a doctor "Doctor," because you don't "believe" in medicine.

Actually, I'd say it's like refusing to call a reiki practitioner or a homeopathic "doctor" "Dr. _____" and yes, I refuse to do that, too.

We have these titles as part of our call to ministry (which is a HUGE part of who we are). In other words, it's how we identify ourselves.

So? Being an engineer is a huge part of who I am. Should I demand that my friends tack "P. Eng." onto the end of my name in social situations?

But you touched on something interesting: that the title is part of the call to ministry. If I don't believe that ministers were "called" at all and instead simply chose their careers based on their likes and passions like everyone else, then why should I address them with a title that's predicated on an idea that I think is false?

It just is not socially acceptable (in this country, anyway) to be that familiar with someone you don't know well enough to call by their first name, unless they give you permission to do so.

Yes, I realize that. That's why I said that the title "Mr." or "Ms." is appropriate.

Is there some valid reason why you have an aversion to using titles?

I don't have an aversion to using titles. I have an aversion to lying:

- I don't think that a priest is my "father" in either the literal or symbolic sense
- I don't think that a bishop is "my lord"
- I don't think that cardinals are "eminent"
- I don't "revere" ministers

I don't have a problem with referring to someone as a minister or a priest, but addressing a priest with "hey, priest!" is probably even less socially acceptable than addressing him by his first name.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually I did ...

I am not sure how the discussion started. Maybe it was my religious friend, maybe it was one of the others, I don't remember.

And I had no idea she would be so upset. I am actually caught between being sorry that I hurt her feelings and being angry at her for her reactions.

So it was just the one time, and you stayed away from the topic after that?

The way sojourner was telling it, it was a matter of you repeatedly harassing your friend.

 

[lunakilo]

It just is not socially acceptable (in this country, anyway) to be that familiar with someone you don't know well enough to call by their first name, unless they give you permission to do so.

Yes, I realize that. That's why I said that the title "Mr." or "Ms." is appropriate.

I find this very funny.
In Denmark you almost never use a person's title. It is close to an insult if you do, it indicates that you don't wish to be friendly, but wish to keep your distance.

Cultural differences, ha

 

[lunakilo]

So it was just the one time, and you stayed away from the topic after that?

The way sojourner was telling it, it was a matter of you repeatedly harassing your friend.

Yes, we never really talked about religion after that.
We talked less in general after that

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Was it more of a pointed interrogation of her rather than a general conversation? If it was the latter, I really cannot understand why she would take the stance that she did. If it was the former, maybe she thought you were attacking her and disrespectful of her.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I generally find that people who complain about their beliefs not being respected, are also the most disrespectful of others who beliefs differ from their own.

Also, respect that isn't earned is rather empty.

 

[Bismillah]

9/10ths I am interested given your responses here

- I don't think that a priest is my "father" in either the literal or symbolic sense
- I don't think that a bishop is "my lord"
- I don't think that cardinals are "eminent"
- I don't "revere" ministers

What I feel is that these titles add/force a touch of reverence which is not unanimous among those who do not believe.

What do you think about referencing to a man with something such as Shaykh (elder) or Imam (one who leads the prayers literally) Mufti etc?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

9/10ths I am interested given your responses here



What I feel is that these titles add/force a touch of reverence which is not unanimous among those who do not believe.

I agree.

What do you think about referencing to a man with something such as Shaykh (elder) or Imam (one who leads the prayers literally) Mufti etc?

They literally describe what the person does or is. It's not a matter of deference to recognize an old man as an "elder" (though the idea that he is deserving of respect because of his age would be... though that's not really a religious idea) or to recognize that a person who leads people in prayers really does lead them... regardless of whether one believes that the prayers are "correct" or not.

The same would go for some terms in other religions: for instance, "rabbi" does mean "teacher", so I wouldn't have a problem using the term, just as I don't have a problem with "priest" or "minister".

Mufti? I don't actually know the details of that one, so I suppose I would probably use it unless I found a reason not to.

Edit: a quick Google search tells me that "mufti" simply means "one who gives legal opinions", so no, I don't think I'd have a problem with that. I don't have an issue with accurately describing what people do; I have an issue in certain contexts with automatic deference to people because of what they do.

 

[Bismillah]

Hmm you quoted me as lunakilo I was confused :areyoucra

I agree with you, I wouldn't feel comfortable calling a man "father" but calling a man a Priest is different.

A Mufti is just another rank up the hierarchy who has mastered various topics of Islamic jurisprudence, Arabic, modern affairs etc. etc.

It's the title for someone who has fulfilled certain requirements.