You don't show respect for my religion!

[Meow Mix]

I have zero respect for blatant irrationality and I'm very unapologetic about that.

I don't deliberately attempt to hurt people's feelings or lash out at their beliefs -- but just because someone believes in something without justification doesn't mean I'm going to pussyfoot around talking about how the evidence suggests reality really is; and I'm not going to hesitate to point out that an assertion without justification has no basis in discussions about reality.

 

[waitasec]

i find it very difficult to respect any religion that would question my judgment, reason and integrity.

 

[Badran]

I have zero respect for blatant irrationality and I'm very unapologetic about that.

Are you saying that anybody following a religion or holding religious beliefs is blatantly irrational?

just because someone believes in something without justification doesn't mean I'm going to pussyfoot around talking about how the evidence suggests reality really is;

If they put it up for discussion, sure, try your best, without toning down what you have to say. Otherwise its non of your business, and you should be respectful while discussing the topic if you want to bring it up. If its brought up by a third person, then the same as the first scenario, only difference is if it happens a lot a level of consideration should be made for the person who's getting their view criticized all the time, if you care about them that is.

If you have a problem with anybody believing in something without justification in your view for it, thats just that, your problem. They don't have to hear you show your disrespect for their choice, unless like i said if they put it up for discussion.

 

[Meow Mix]

Are you saying that anybody following a religion or holding religious beliefs is blatantly irrational?

No, maybe I should have clarified. I was only speaking of irrational beliefs; the possibility remains that some people have rational reasons for holding religious beliefs. I'm only speaking of the situation where it's clear a person does not -- I have very little respect for that.

If they put it up for discussion, sure, try your best, without toning down what you have to say. Otherwise its non of your business, and you should be respectful while discussing the topic if you want to bring it up. If its brought up by a third person, then the same as the first scenario, only difference is if it happens a lot a level of consideration should be made for the person who's getting their view criticized all the time, if you care about them that is.

If you have a problem with anybody believing in something without justification in your view for it, thats just that, your problem. They don't have to hear you show your disrespect for their choice, unless like i said if they put it up for discussion.

Of course I'll be respectful -- it's never my intention to be rude for the sake of being rude. However if someone is sensitive to comments like "I doubt there's a rational basis to believe that" or "That belief has some contradictions" then I have little sympathy for their sensitivity. That's all I'm saying.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course I'll be respectful -- it's never my intention to be rude for the sake of being rude. However if someone is sensitive to comments like "I doubt there's a rational basis to believe that" or "That belief has some contradictions" then I have little sympathy for their sensitivity. That's all I'm saying.

I bet that some people who see me in RL consider me to be disrespectful to religion.

For instance (and for reasons that would probably take the thread off-topic if I went into them), I refuse to bow or kneel to the altar in my wife's church; she knows this, but sometimes she asks me to come with her anyhow.

I'll be the only one who doesn't genuflect before entering the pew, and I'll be the only one not kneeling at certain points in the mass. Some of the other parishoners look at me funny, but I don't think I could do otherwise in good conscience. If they think I'm disrespectful, so be it - I'm there for my wife, not for their god.

I've also stopped bowing my head for grace at dinners with my wife's family. I'm sure that her sisters don't appreciate this - they've scolded their kids at the table before for not bowing their heads for grace, so I wouldn't be surprised if they consider me a bad influence, but I've arrived at a point where I don't really care. I figure that there's nothing wrong with me being an atheist, so why should I hide it? I don't push it on people, but I'm not going to mislead people that I'm something I'm not.

Edit: sometimes I wonder if me simply approaching my life with honesty is construed as disrespect.

 

[Badran]

No, maybe I should have clarified. I was only speaking of irrational beliefs; the possibility remains that some people have rational reasons for holding religious beliefs. I'm only speaking of the situation where it's clear a person does not -- I have very little respect for that.

That naturally warrants no respect, i can understand that. I understand also based on the rest of your post here, that you still wouldn't treat people who you think qualify for that, in a disrespectful manner, by making disrespectful statements, or constantly harassing them for their beliefs. I agree then with what you said, if i understood you correctly.

Of course I'll be respectful -- it's never my intention to be rude for the sake of being rude. However if someone is sensitive to comments like "I doubt there's a rational basis to believe that" or "That belief has some contradictions" then I have little sympathy for their sensitivity. That's all I'm saying.

Well, neither one of those statements is disrespectful at all, so by having little sympathy for people who are sensitive for those statements, you're being very generous.

 

[Badran]

I bet that some people who see me in RL consider me to be disrespectful to religion.

For instance (and for reasons that would probably take the thread off-topic if I went into them), I refuse to bow or kneel to the altar in my wife's church; she knows this, but sometimes she asks me to come with her anyhow.

I'll be the only one who doesn't genuflect before entering the pew, and I'll be the only one not kneeling at certain points in the mass. Some of the other parishoners look at me funny, but I don't think I could do otherwise in good conscience. If they think I'm disrespectful, so be it - I'm there for my wife, not for their god.

I've also stopped bowing my head for grace at dinners with my wife's family. I'm sure that her sisters don't appreciate this - they've scolded their kids at the table before for not bowing their heads for grace, so I wouldn't be surprised if they consider me a bad influence, but I've arrived at a point where I don't really care. I figure that there's nothing wrong with me being an atheist, so why should I hide it? I don't push it on people, but I'm not going to mislead people that I'm something I'm not.

Edit: sometimes I wonder if me simply approaching my life with honesty is construed as disrespect.

I don't find any of this disrespectful in the slightest.

The only thing disrespectful is others wanting or expecting you to do any of those things.

 

[MissAlice]

I have respect for those who have beliefs but I sort of pretty much identify with Meow Mix's posts. I'll give you an example which has nothing to do with me wanting to pick a fight with anyone who's religious. On FB, I don't put too much about my political religious beliefs but I am honest when it comes to opinions when asked. I've had several "friends" on my FB bothered that I don't "believe" in god. I even had some people get offended with my little quotes from Mark Twain regarding god and opinions which is part of why I believe some of those people unfriended me. Anyway I think respect is a two way street. I never judge people when they express their beliefs in god or leave any rude comments. However I find the myself the majority of time people of religious faith who get mad at me for expressing anything close to my unbelief or expressing a mere joke or disbelief in regard to a god I don't believe nor exclusively deny exists without evidence. I think for me in America right in the middle states we're a minority which makes it harder imo. I question everything and many people get bothered by it. I try not to come off offensive but you can't please everyone.

 

[Badran]

I have respect for those who have beliefs but I sort of pretty much identify with Meow Mix's posts. I'll give you an example which has nothing to do with me wanting to pick a fight with anyone who's religious. On FB, I don't put too much about my political religious beliefs but I am honest when it comes to opinions when asked. I've had several "friends" on my FB bothered that I don't "believe" in god. I even had some people get offended with my little quotes from Mark Twain regarding god and opinions which is part of why I believe some of those people unfriended me. Anyway I think respect is a two way street. I never judge people when they express their beliefs in god or leave any rude comments. However I find the myself the majority of time people of religious faith who get mad at me for expressing anything close to my unbelief or expressing a mere joke or disbelief in regard to a god I don't believe nor exclusively deny exists without evidence. I think for me in America right in the middle states we're a minority which makes it harder imo. I question everything and many people get bothered by it. I try not to come off offensive but you can't please everyone.

I'll use what you said as another example, just to make sure my point doesn't come off the wrong way, not one single bit of what you said is disrespectful at all. In fact, once more, the things expected from you in this case is whats disrespectful.

 

[lunakilo]

I bet that some people who see me in RL consider me to be disrespectful to religion.

For instance (and for reasons that would probably take the thread off-topic if I went into them), I refuse to bow or kneel to the altar in my wife's church; she knows this, but sometimes she asks me to come with her anyhow.

I'll be the only one who doesn't genuflect before entering the pew, and I'll be the only one not kneeling at certain points in the mass. Some of the other parishoners look at me funny, but I don't think I could do otherwise in good conscience. If they think I'm disrespectful, so be it - I'm there for my wife, not for their god.

I've also stopped bowing my head for grace at dinners with my wife's family. I'm sure that her sisters don't appreciate this - they've scolded their kids at the table before for not bowing their heads for grace, so I wouldn't be surprised if they consider me a bad influence, but I've arrived at a point where I don't really care. I figure that there's nothing wrong with me being an atheist, so why should I hide it? I don't push it on people, but I'm not going to mislead people that I'm something I'm not.

Edit: sometimes I wonder if me simply approaching my life with honesty is construed as disrespect.

I think these are good examples of situations where you have to descide whether to show respect for religion or not. And I would do the exact same thing as you.

I also remember when I was 16 and went to Mexico as an exchange student for a year.
My best friend there was a very religious catholic (not the same one as in the OP) and I went with her a her fried to church quite a few times. She kept asking me to kneel and make the sign of the cross when I entered the church (I think that was how it was), but I always said no. I am not catholic so I don't see why should follow catholic practices. One day when she asked me I asked her if it was a problem. I could just wait outside the church untill they where done. She stopped asking me after that.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

I think religious practices are often confused with social customs. For example, custom dictates that we shake hands/hug when we meet other people. Unfortunately religion has been ingrained in our society to such an extent that people are thought of as social outcasts if they don't perform an act of religious conformation, which, in the mind of the religious( more often than not) is a social custom.

 

[lunakilo]

I think religious practices are often confused with social customs. For example, custom dictates that we shake hands/hug when we meet other people.

You are very good at saying things that make me remember stuff.

I had happily forgot about Asmaa Abdol-Hamid.
She is a danish politician from an immigrant family.
She became famous (in Denmark that is ) when she refused to shake a male colleague's hand, instead putting her hand on her heart in greetin.

People where VERY offended by this, myself included.
I am at this moment contemplating whether I had the right to be or not.

 

[Badran]

You are very good at saying things that make me remember stuff.

I had happily forgot about Asmaa Abdol-Hamid.
She is a danish politician from an immigrant family.
She became famous (in Denmark that is ) when she refused to shake a male colleague's hand, instead putting her hand on her heart in greetin.

People where VERY offended by this, myself included.
I am at this moment contemplating whether I had the right to be or not.

That happened to me more than once, i wasn't offended. I was however embarrassed.

I personally of course can't see any problem with shaking hands, neither see a big deal to make an awkward moment of it.

But, that doesn't mean she was necessarily disrespectful. It depends on the context and how she handles the situation in my opinion. For example if she tried her best to make the moment pass easily, and make sure you don't get offended by her unexpected choice to always not shake hands, it wouldn't be disrespectful in that case.

 

[lunakilo]

That happened to me more than once, i wasn't offended. I was however embarrassed.

I personally of course can't see any problem with shaking hands, neither see a big deal to make an awkward moment of it.

But, that doesn't mean she was necessarily disrespectful. It depends on the context and how she handles the situation in my opinion. For example if she tried her best to make the moment pass easily, and make sure you don't get offended by her unexpected choice to always not shake hands, it wouldn't be disrespectful in that case.

As I remember it she refused to shake hands with men.
But had no problem with shaking hands with women.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

But then, in most conservative cultures, women don't shake mens' hands. So it is a custom for them. We must be accommodating of other cultures too.
I immediately see a flaw in this argument. Why don't these women be accommodating of western custom then? I guess it is something to be decided on the spot, and not made into an awkward moment.

 

[Badran]

As I remember it she refused to shake hands with men.
But had no problem with shaking hands with women.

Yeah i know, i didn't mean by 'always not shake hands' that she doesn't shake hands with everybody. Its very known here that some men don't shake hands with women, and that some women don't shake hands with men.

 

[lunakilo]

But then, in most conservative cultures, women don't shake mens' hands. So it is a custom for them. We must be accommodating of other cultures too.

But it is also sexist!

If a man refused to shake my hand I would be angry.
Any reason why a man should not be angry if a woman refuses to shake his hand?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Its like when you meet a girl at a bar, do you kiss her on the cheek or hug her or shake her hand? AWKWARD!

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

But it is also sexist!

If a man refused to shake my hand I would be angry.
Any reason why a man should not be angry if a woman refuses to shake his hand?

Well, yeah. That is why I made a clarification. Unfortunately, all cultures have their quirks. We must learn to accommodate others and their customs.

 

[Badran]

But it is also sexist!

No its not, you just think so because you probably completely misunderstand why is that done.

Its supposed to be part of the modesty thing. Conservative people, or strict people sometimes think like that.