You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

[TashaN]

You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

Is that really freedom?

The only freedom we have is to follow the rules or break them.
No other freedom comes to mind.
This would include either secular rules or religious rules.
Rules of physics and nature are understood.
This free will that you have is freedom that you take.
It is not given to you.
Freedom is not something that can be given unless it is first taken from you.

If we are in God’s image and He in ours, then is He hampered by this same condition of only being able to follow the rules or break them?

He seems to be.

Regards
DL

There is no absolute freedom. I think God gave us a special type of freedom, a controlled one, not a freedom per se.

 

[Greatest I am]

Our will is (potentially) as free and open as our mind is.

This is true but you could also say that those who think they have found God have a closed mind because they think that they can no longer question.

Those who claim knowing God sure have a hard time showing His philosophy without invoking miracles and an unfathomable God.

If in our image then God must be fathomable.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

It is clear to me that none of you yet understand what Free Will is, but you have provided enough information in this thread to make my point.
I do not take the story of Adam and Eve literally, but symbolically. Symbolically, when Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, man first asked himself the question "Why am I here?"
Supposedly God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, and man started to become aware of his mortality. As Man's fear of mortality grew, he developed his own free will and so severed his innocent and perfectly natural connection to his Creator. This connection was innocent and natural because it WASN'T conscious.
As Man "evolved" he began to reflect on the past, plan for the future, analyze and criticise himself and others, seek control, and get revenge. As barberians it is easy to see why we would believe our Creator is barberic. The Old Testament at least was clearly written by barberians and therefore makes an excellent example of what God is NOT.
Was it not God that made the Garden of Eden? Could not Adam and Eve have lived there in eternal bliss?
God did NOT kick them out of the Garden. When they ate the apple they chose THEIR will over God's. They saw before them a multitude of choices, things to acquire, lands to control, and pleasures to seek. For this they sacrificied eternal bliss.
But they never left the Garden of Eden. In fact, here and now, WE are still in it. When Adam and Eve chose there own Free Will they blinded themselves to God's Garden and so millenia later we remain as blind as they were. Adam and Eve believed quite wrongfully that God gave them the boot. And so Man made up a lie to blame God for his stupidity.
Today we blame Adam and Eve for not being in the Garden, but this too is a lie.
The Truth is we always have been and always will be in the garden. We need only surrender our Free Will so that we may see.

That would mean that only slaves can know God.

What makes you think that God wants to be our master?
Is slavery a good thing?

It is said that God has slaves in His angels. Why would He want more slaves?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

There is no absolute freedom. I think God gave us a special type of freedom, a controlled one, not a freedom per se.

I agree to a point. Some say limited freedom.

Controlled by who or what?

Regards
DL

 

[cmax]

I think Apostle Paul in his book of Romans took a free will away from at least these two brothers he talked about whose destiny was decided by God before they were born. So not having a free will can't be that strange belief even to norm Christians.

 

[blackout]

This is true but you could also say that those who think they have found God have a closed mind because they think that they can no longer question.

Those who claim knowing God sure have a hard time showing His philosophy without invoking miracles and an unfathomable God.

If in our image then God must be fathomable.

Regards
DL

some gods come in a boxy book you open

some gOds are an 'Open Book'

some gods are kept in a box

some gOds ARE the box,
and what's in the box,
and what's above, and below,
and all that surrounds it on every side,
out to infinity. and beyond.

 

[TashaN]

I agree to a point. Some say limited freedom.

Controlled by who or what?

Regards
DL

"Limited freedom", yes, that's what i meant.

 

[Greatest I am]

"Limited freedom", yes, that's what i meant.

Yes but again, controlled by who or what?

Regards
DL

 

[TashaN]

Yes but again, controlled by who or what?

Regards
DL

God, of course.

 

[Nothing]

That would mean that only slaves can know God.

What makes you think that God wants to be our master?
Is slavery a good thing?

It is said that God has slaves in His angels. Why would He want more slaves?

Regards
DL

We are enslaved by our own will, God's Will liberates

God does NOT want to be our master, but our emancipator

WE are God's angels and NONE of us are slaves

We are enslaved by our earthly desires

We are enslaved by our belief in mortality

I do not know how you got the message of enslavement out of my last post G I A, perhaps you didn't actually read it or maybe it was over your head. I welcome your debate, G I A, but I am rather disapointed you couldn't think of something better to debate with.

 

[Greatest I am]

God, of course.

If an outside agent controls you then how can you say you have any free will at all?

If in someone else's control then that party is responsible for the actions you do, good or evil.

You never get credit or blame. It all goes to the controller.

I find it funny that you would think that God gives and takes away your free will whenever He likes.

Rather an Indian giver.

Take this, give it back, take this give it back, take this give it back, take this give it back, take this give it back, take this give it back ad infinitum.

I guess that God has nothing better to do with His time.

Regards
DL

 

[nameless]

"Limited freedom", yes, that's what i meant.

differentiate limited freedom and no freedom.

 

[Greatest I am]

We are enslaved by our own will, God's Will liberates

God does NOT want to be our master, but our emancipator

WE are God's angels and NONE of us are slaves

We are enslaved by our earthly desires

We are enslaved by our belief in mortality

I do not know how you got the message of enslavement out of my last post G I A, perhaps you didn't actually read it or maybe it was over your head. I welcome your debate, G I A, but I am rather disapointed you couldn't think of something better to debate with.

"We need only surrender our Free Will so that we may see."

Slaves surender their free will.
Free men do not.

If you want to debate then pay atention to your own word and what they mean.

Regards
DL

 

[Nothing]

"We need only surrender our Free Will so that we may see."

Slaves surender their free will.
Free men do not.

If you want to debate then pay atention to your own word and what they mean.

Regards
DL

Man surrenders God's Will and replaces it with his own and by doing so becomes enslaved. Man believing in his own will creates the illusion of freedom. Yet when his own will leads him astray he blames God and STILL fails to see that his own will is an illusion of freedom. Many who believe in God deny His True nature by falsely believing He enslaves. Therefore they deny themselves the opportunity to truly KNOW God and truly KNOW freedom.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

That may be all very true but you're missing the problem with your argument in that being agnostic is a choice, just as being theistic and atheistic are choices. They don't have the cognitive capacity so referring to the as agnostic implies they have made a choice, which they have not. If you argue that agnostic is present for them, then you allow for atheism and theism to be present because you're implying htey have knowledge of the concept of god regardless of what their choice is. Hence, they're not agnostic, not atheist and not theist, they have no formal status until they have the cognitive capacity to formally make a decision. It makes no sense to say they are agnostic yet they cannot understand the idea of god because that's contradictory.

I meant Agnostic in the sense of having no knowledge rather than the theological stance. Perhaps it was simply a poor choice of words on my part. How about:

No one can claim to be born an Atheist or a Theist as we are all born ignorant of the concept of God.

Better?

 

[Greatest I am]

Man surrenders God's Will and replaces it with his own and by doing so becomes enslaved. Man believing in his own will creates the illusion of freedom. Yet when his own will leads him astray he blames God and STILL fails to see that his own will is an illusion of freedom. Many who believe in God deny His True nature by falsely believing He enslaves. Therefore they deny themselves the opportunity to truly KNOW God and truly KNOW freedom.

You are true to your name.

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

distinguish free-will and no free-will

Being able to make your own choices is free-will. Having all of your choices made for you (and I mean every single one) is no free-will.

nothing wrong with all these, but how not accepting existence of creator becomes a crime? where is the intention to hurt others in that?

I never claimed it was, did I?

 

[Nothing]

You are true to your name.

Regards
DL

Thank you (I think) DL, and to you my regards.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

So god expects me to make a choice, but doesn't provide me with the same quality of tools as other people? My mind doesn't recognize evidence for god while other peoples' minds do? Still, how them am I to blame for being forced into atheism? Why do you get a functionning tool while mine is defective? I have to spend eternity in hell becuase I was unlucky enought to be given a bad tool?

The tools you have are the same as everyone else. An Atheist's mind cannot be called 'defective', nor can a Theist's. One's belief (or disbelief) in the existence of God is simply a result of the way they interpret the evidence presented to them.

 

[nameless]

Being able to make your own choices is free-will. Having all of your choices made for you (and I mean every single one) is no free-will.

do you see any difference between your version of 'free-will' from free-will offered by different nations? like freedom of speech, freedom of belief etc.

I never claimed it was, did I?

Sure He can. If His creation stands up and says He played no part in it's creation, He does not exist and yet, despite this nonexistence, is evil, and the creation happened purely through chance. I think if I were the Creator I might find such claims insulting.

well, this made me think like that.