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Your position about Islam

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Why couldn't Allah send down a revelation that wouldn't become corrupt in the first place? Why did Allah allow the previous revelations (such as those by Moses and Jesus) to become corrupted before he finally sent the Qur'an and afforded it special protection?

It reminds me of the arguments that Christians use to provide validity to their religion against the Mosaic Covenant of the Jews.
 
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s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
I hope that only interested member about the topic would reply to it.

I have been pointed to create this thread in this section so I would be able to debate things.

Good. :)

Please note that some complex questions may require some time so I can get the answer to. I may also answer some question along with youtube videos.

I wish questions would be more directed towards theology and about Islam rather than being about Muslims and what they seem to do.
Seems fair...

After all, not all muslims represent Islam. I would like to start with a misconception about Islam. This misconception is that we hate Jesus peace be upon him. As a matter of fact we don't and it is the other way round. Jesus peace be upon him is one of the greatest prophets in Islam and no one can be a muslim without believing in him and his miraculous birth from the mother Mary. There are far more misconceptions about Islam an here I would like to shed light and debate some of them
True enough...

...perhaps what is sought most in "Western media" outlets is at least some overtly expressed sense of outrage and rejection.? When ever was any Islamist "group" methodologically murdered as rationally against other "believing" Isalamists, and then justified as purging the world of "infidels"? Um, really?


Two things I wish to hear from members so we can debate when there is a room for debate. I would be basing my answers from the Quraan when possible.

1- What is your position about Islam?
Religiously excused aspects of fundamentalism ignores fundamental "truths" of today. Religion is no excuse for abject stupidity.

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

Why ignore "facts" on purpose, would be my first one.

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?
Then you misunderstand.

I think any and all religious fundamentalism is "wrong". Radical Islam is just another brand of willfully intentioned "stupid". I no more blame "Islam" that I might "Christianity or Judaism (or even Druidism)".

Allow me to make this clear.

"I DON"T CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE."

I don't care.

So long as anyone, anywhere, at any time, DOES NOT SEEK TO IMPOSE THEIR RELIGION AS A MATTER OF ENFORCEABLE LAW UPON OTHERS, I don't CARE!

Pray, worship, and believe what ever you choose...I don't care. EVER!

Try to make me either "believe" or "convert"...I WILL REBEL!

HARD!

Does that make any sense?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I wish you look through this report and you would see the ranking of countries who are following Islamic teachings according to a study.


http://www.ahmad-juhaidi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/how-islamic-islamic-countries.pdf
That is interesting, but leads to some surprising conclusions.

To witness, the last few pages of that PDF rank 208 countries in ascending order of "Islamic Nature", so to speak. Some surprising results. Here is a sample:

- New Zealand, in first, was found to be less Islamic than all the other 207 countries.
- Ireland in third.
- Canada in seventh.
- UK in eighth.
- Australia in ninth.
- France in 18th.
- Spain in 23rd.
- USA in 25th.
- Japan in 29th.
- Malaysia in 38th.
- Kuwait in 48th.
- Brazil and Mexico tied in 55th.
- Israel in 61st.
- United Arab Emirates in 66th.
- Jordan in 77th.
- China and Nicaragua are tied in 81st.
- India in 89th.
- Oman in 99th.
- Turkey in 103rd.
- Kazakhstan in 107th.
- Qatar in 112nd.
- Morocco in 119th.
- Azerbaijan in 125th.
- Saudi Arabia in 131st.
- Indonesia in 140th.
- Pakistan in 147th.
- Bangladesh in 152nd.
- Egypt in 153rd.
- Lebanon in 158th.
- Algeria in 160th.
- Iran in 163rd.
- Afghanistan in 169th.
- Syria in 186th.
- Lybia in 196th.
- Yemen in 198th.
- Iraq in 201st.
- Sudan in 202nd.
- Somalia in 206th.
- West Bank and Gaza in 207th.
- Last and most Islamic of all, Mayotte in 208th.

Some interesting contrasts. For instance:

- Spain apparently does not have too much of an attachment to its strong past cultural influence from Islam.

Despite frequent claims to the contrary, Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq and West Bank and Gaza are all measured as significantly more Islamic than Indonesia.

This is significant, because it is often pointed out that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in the whole Arab world. Indonesia has about 240 million people, about 85% of them being Muslims. Not quite as many as I expected, actually. Indonesia has more Muslims than any other country, but it can't beat (say) India and Pakistan together.

It is interesting also to note that Israel is more Islamic than both Kuwait and Malaysia, which to me indicates that the criteria used value the raw number of Muslims a bit too much. Are we truly to think of China as more Islamic than the United Arab Emirates? Is India more Islamic than Jordan? Cuba slightly more Islamic than Pakistan?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Which Islam? The Islam that sanctions the likes of al-Qaeda and ISIS and allows for the slaughter of captives, the selling of captives into slavery, the killing of any non-Muslims for any attempts to share their faith with Muslims, the levying of harsh taxes against non-Muslims, the treatment of non-Muslims like second- and third-class citizens and depriving them of basic freedoms and human rights, the barbaric attacking of women as if they were worse than animals, the slow stripping away of the heritage and culture of non-Muslims within Muslim lands, the utilizing of 7th-century punishments and legal codes? I would utterly destroy this Islam from the face of the earth if I ever got the chance.

The Islam that preaches freedom of religion, social justice, love and compassion for others, non-aggression, defense of the poor and downtrodden against oppressors, showing mercy to those who surrender in battle and treating them well and with honor, protecting women if their husbands accuse them of rape without witnesses, paying money to free slaves and help those in debt, allowing non-Muslims to keep their churches, temples, statues, bells and processions and practice their religion without interference, giving charity to the poor, advancing the fields of medicine, science and mathematics, advocating reason and open dialogue with all? I would like this Islam a lot. It's a shame it seems much rarer these days, ever since the Crusades 800 years ago. If my spiritual path starts taking me away from Orthodox Christianity, I might even consider joining this Islam.

Let me start with that Islam is a complete system of life and is taken as a whole. Which of these two versions you think Islam is? Which one is the Quraan supported version? Which one is the one that Allah, the All Merciful wants us to follow?


I've been doing research, and it seems that different schools of Islam seem to have different interpretations regarding Allah's predestination and its relationship to our free will. Do certain schools of Islam believe that we can freely choose to follow Allah or not, without Him forcing us into one position or the other, or having preordained us to do so? Do certain schools teach that we are able to change our minds regarding whether to follow Allah at any time? Is it a universal opinion in Islam that Allah forces us to choose Him or not to choose Him, and that He creates us so that we are fated to commit either sins or righteous acts, and that we are powerless to change what Allah has fated us to do? I remember reading some verses from the Qur'an that very strongly imply this idea. Could you explain some of the more notable of these verses, and provide verses which suggest that we have free will, and that Allah does not force us into one action or another?

Well this is the most complex question one would ask.

Allah knows everything that a person would do because He is the one who created us. He knows who will obey and who will not. He knows who will open the door and who will close the door. However this is not to be confused to the person's ability to choose, but still God knows what you will choose.

It is like when you offer your child to choose between going to the cinema or going to the beach. You know what he will choose because he's your child and that is how well you know him. So we know how our children thinks, and we only gave birth to them. Allah is our Creator and He knows us better we know ourselves.


Here are some verses as you requested

6:104 There has come to you enlightenment from your Lord. So whoever will see does so for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever is blind [does harm] against it. And [say], "I am not a guardian over you."


2:286 Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

13:11 For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah . Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron.

17: Whoever should desire the immediate - We hasten for him from it what We will to whom We intend. Then We have made for him Hell, which he will [enter to] burn, censured and banished.

18 But whoever desires the Hereafter and exerts the effort due to it while he is a believer - it is those whose effort is ever appreciated [by Allah ].

19 To each [category] We extend - to these and to those - from the gift of your Lord. And never has the gift of your Lord been restricted.

To explain it in another way, I would say it is similar to the concept of the Karma. Whoever does good will get good and whoever does bad will have bad things. Even if you were not able to do what you intended to to because of how things went, you will still get your reward for your intentions.

41:46 Whoever does righteousness - it is for his [own] soul; and whoever does evil [does so] against it. And your Lord is not ever unjust to [His] servants.

2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

18:29 And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.

Are there still Mu'tazili Muslims today?
ً

Well believe me one I say I don't pay attention to labels and I don't really know who are they and what they stand for.

EDIT: One more question: Are there any verses in the Qur'an that state that Allah loves us?

Well I don't recall a verse a particular verse in the Quraan that states that, nor I recall that there is a verse that says that God hates us, but there are many verses talking about rewards. Would you rewards someone of you don't love him?

Two hadith I recall and they are stuck in my memory are:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If Allah loves a person, He calls Gabriel saying, 'Allah loves so and-so; O Gabriel! Love him.' Gabriel would love him and make an announcement amongst the inhabitants of the Heaven. 'Allah loves so-and-so, therefore you should love him also,' and so all the inhabitants of the Heaven would love him, and then he is granted the pleasure of the people on the earth."

"My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.

"When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks.

"Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."


Because the Qur'an is wrong. The Qur'an wrongly explains the Christian dogma of the Trinity, and it wrongly asserts that the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God (they don't).

Can you point these to me in the Quraan?

Also, the fact that many Muslims attempt to prove Islam from the Christian Bible is laughable at best. Just stick with the Qur'an and call the Gospel corrupted in the places where it talks about Jesus being God.

I don't find it laughable because through out the bible, you can see contradictions of teachings and I think that is what majority tries to prove when they follow that approach.

Anyways If you have time I wish you would watch as much as possible from these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H69MCV8Qp6A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wog7LUBgyo4
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
1 Very Negative. If I lived in 8th century Baghdad I might have had a positive impression but the current bombing of Churches from Nigeria to Pakistan and Persecution of Christians in Islamic world is not all making me happy.

2
a. Do you think Islam needs some reforms? Me personally believes that more or less I have to change with time. I wouldnt be advocating Stoning a or 7th Century Sharia law at all.
b. Do you think Islam is compatible with Secularism? Is Separation of Church and State Or more accurately Separation of Mosque and State possible in Islam?

3 I feel Islam is going backwards rather than forwards. I feel that Islam should accept that its not 7th century anymore and accept that it has faults and reform it rather than become more fundamentalist.

1- You are right about the acts, they are horrible.

2-a I dont think Islam needs reform. I think adherents must come to the real Islam.

b. I don't know what you meant by asking if it is possible, but I always prefer Islamic ruling. However my opinion is of little importance.

3-I agree that Islam is not having good days and that is one of the prophecies. However that changes nothing about Islam, it is not Islam's fault, it is about muslims,
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Hey, that is a good question to make. What is your view of Sufism? Could you describe it, and how it relates to other branches of Islam?

Well I dont have many information about them.

My greatest guess is that they are people like any group of people, they have the good guys and the bad guys.

That doesn't really tell much, I know. But they are still muslims (in their practices) However of course you will find some people who do things outside Islam claiming it is Islamic.

I know I didn't give details, this is because as I have stated, I pay little attention to labels.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
1- You are right about the acts, they are horrible.

2-a I dont think Islam needs reform. I think adherents must come to the real Islam.

b. I don't know what you meant by asking if it is possible, but I always prefer Islamic ruling. However my opinion is of little importance.

3-I agree that Islam is not having good days and that is one of the prophecies. However that changes nothing about Islam, it is not Islam's fault, it is about muslims,

What exactly is "real Islam" to you?

What would an Islamic society be like, in your view?

Would women have the same rights as men? Would they be forced to cover themselves or stay at home?

Would non-Muslims have the same rights as Muslims? Would they have the right to practice their religion freely? Would atheists and those who leave Islam have full rights?

Would lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people have full rights or at least be able to openly live as who we are?

Would it be a democracy, or what?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
1- You are right about the acts, they are horrible.

2-a I dont think Islam needs reform. I think adherents must come to the real Islam.

b. I don't know what you meant by asking if it is possible, but I always prefer Islamic ruling. However my opinion is of little importance.

3-I agree that Islam is not having good days and that is one of the prophecies. However that changes nothing about Islam, it is not Islam's fault, it is about muslims,

See, that is another problem. Islam is always assumed to be perfect, flawless, and in fact spiritually healing. It would not even surprise me to see a straight statement that it matters not whether Muslims are completely wrong-headed, Islam remains perfect, exalted, incorruptible nonetheless.

In practice, that means that Islam does not exist. Not on Earth. Muslims area allowed to draw inspiration and motivation from the concept, but it is neither solid, nor questionable, nor clearly defined.

In a very real sense, Islam seems to be dangerously close to a monumental practical joke that Muslims apply to themselves.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
That is a factor. There seems to be a bit more than that at work, though.


We are talking about people are born as belivers in a supreme being

That, I understand, is a widely-held, very typical, very orthodox part of Muslim belief.

And I can tell you outright that it is wrong.

I know your position about that already, my point is that scientists recently came to that conclusion
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Than what it is? 3=1 ?

No matter how one tries to explain it, it is still three.

It is a matter of perception, mostly. Just as a coin can be seen as one object or two sides, the trinitarian perspective is that God is one, but manifests in three aspects.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I know your position about that already, my point is that scientists recently came to that conclusion

No, they did not. Not in any way worth considering, I assure you.

Are you perhaps speaking about the neurological findings about the human tendency to assume that there are supernatural entities?

It is quite a stretch to make them into evidence that people are "born believers". So much so that I am willing to bet that you have, in fact, misunderstood whatever you are speaking about.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Are there still Mu'tazili Muslims today?
Thanks for mentioning them - I just learned something new.

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H052 seems to be an overview of their beliefs
The Mu'tazila - literally 'those who withdraw themselves' - movement was founded by Wasil bin 'Ata' in the second century [SIZE=-1]ah[/SIZE] (eighth century [SIZE=-1]ad[/SIZE]). Its members were united in their conviction that it was necessary to give a rationally coherent account of Islamic beliefs. In addition to having an atomistic view of the universe, they generally held to five theological principles, of which the two most important were the unity of God and divine justice. The former led them to deny that the attributes of God were distinct entities or that the Qur'an was eternal, while the latter led them to assert the existence of free will.
 
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s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Should I wear a tie?

I mean, is this to be a formal expose or nay?
 
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