Your position about Islam

[outhouse]

I think adherents must come to the real Islam.


,

They have been murdering each other over this since it started.

Your view is factually the largest source of death and terrorism in islam


It is an embarrassment to humanity

 

[Sabour]

Let me get this strait before anyone else misunderstands. The militant outlook of Muhammad himself wasn't extremist. However his words were easily warped and manipulated. There is more potential for harm than many other religions in this regard.

That is always bound to happen, it is not an Islam thing. I don't agree that there is more potential for harm than many other religions. If you read the bible, you can see more potential for that.

Why not treat them the same? Women and men as if there were no difference?

Women and men have different needs. So women are given high attention. Being equal doesn't mean treating them the same.

Pagan religions often have no negative for apostasy. Christianity has no negative associations other than going to hell which is only in the afterlife. It seems to me that there is a clear message in the Koran to cut off people who are apostates. Could the son or daughter of a Muslim family become an atheist and still be welcome ?

I was talking about the idea that it was not acceptable. I don't think that anyone would welcome that one would leave his religion. As for the pegan religions, am not sure.

If going to hell in the afterlife is not negative, than what is?
And just to make things clear

Deuteronomy 13

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Quraan doesn't say to kill apostates as you said. Quraan rather says that there is no compulsion in religion and people are free to believe or disbelieve.

I have no read the whole Quran but I have read about 1/3rd of it. It seems, in my personal opinion, similar to other holy books. Perhaps its translated form looses much of his poetic beauty (as I have heard from all sources that the Quran is very beautifully written regardless of your belief in it). But I would find Illiad to be also that way.

Fair enough.

On god? I am not convinced. I think that is the best way to describe it. I feel as if I am still waiting for some kind of conformation but I have stopped waiting.

Yeah I remember once having a debate with you on that. If you are interested read a booklet called faith and progress.

http://www.al-dawah.dk/boger/engelske/pdf/Faith_and_Progress.pdf

 

[Estro Felino]

Women and men have different needs. So women are given high attention. Being equal doesn't mean treating them the same.

Explain yourself. Women need to have sex as much as men do.
I don't understand what you mean by "different needs"

 

[Sabour]

Could you enlighten me on the other miracles? The Galen bit is pretty well supported by most modern embryologists. Keith Moore and his cronies made their statement several decades ago and there are a lot of links with Saudi money in that.

Well okay I would suggest you would watch youtube videos about the miracles I will provide so that you will be in a better position to evaluate it and reflect on it and understand how things are linked.

First, just want to say that Quraan is not a book of science, but rather one of its miracles is having hints about scientific matters that were really not known. It is like the example you mentioned. One of the miracles of the Quraan is that it always offer something new.

Long time ago I have wrote a thread here it is http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/162366-20-signs-god-exist-quraan-word.html

From a purely objective perspective there is no proof of God either. Even though I believe in a divine universal being, it is my own subjective belief. However there is no proof, just a lot of faith and inference.

Isn't logical thinking also considered a proof? What about reflecting on things also?

I would also suggest that you look up the 99 names of Allah and see.

Why was the last prophet only 1400 years ago? Why nothing after that? What if we exist for another 1400 years as a species? Or another 1400 years after that? Don't you think people will start wondering why the last prophet was sent thousands of years ago. Does it make sense?

Allah chooses the way to do things and questions like that are always bound to be asked no matter what the case was.

Allah has sent us prophet after prophet so that the message would be shared gradually and people will be better prepared to accept the message from God for every time interval there are different needs. According to scholars of Islam, the end of the world is near because MANY of the prophecies of the last days had occurred.

Lots of people have visions and prophecies, in modern medicine they are called schizophrenics and treated with medicine. What makes you so sure that Mohammed didn't have the same issue? Joan of Arc had a vision from God where she literally listened to the voice and led her army to victory. Why isn't she a prophet? Why are all prophets men?

Muhammad peace be upon him had prophecies in our days we are living today. After 1400 years.

I suggest you watch this video, I think it answers a lot of things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPiV0_-0RU

I appreciate you taking the time to address all of our questions. I'm sure it's overwhelming.

No problem at all I enjoy such discussion/debate/Questions -Answers

 

[LuisDantas]

That is always bound to happen, it is not an Islam thing. I don't agree that there is more potential for harm than many other religions. If you read the bible, you can see more potential for that.

Quite frankly, the Bible is a rather poor comparison parameter.

I wish Christians and Muslims did not compare Christianity and Islam quite so often, as if they somehow had each other as a main contestant.

The fact of the matter is that both faiths share quite a few major deficiencies, often actually failing to notice their existence altogether, and even taking pride on such flaws.

As it turns out, one of those flaws is over-reliance on scripture. These days most Christians have learned better than to simply assume that scripture is always wise and worth taking into consideration.

I don't know that such an approach is even possible in Islam, though. It has been said, apparently not without reason, that the equivalent of Jesus in Islam is not Mohammed, but rather the Quran.

Women and men have different needs. So women are given high attention. Being equal doesn't mean treating them the same.

On that I agree. However, there is a very palpable deficiency of questioning of traditional expectations about the genders in Islamic communities. What was respectful 1400 years ago will often be quite unproper now.

I was talking about the idea that it was not acceptable. I don't think that anyone would welcome that one would leave his religion. As for the pegan religions, am not sure.

You would be surprised by how much more worth a honest, open, sincere adherence to another path can have as an alternative to nominal agreement on belief matters.

 

[LuisDantas]

Explain yourself. Women need to have sex as much as men do.
I don't understand what you mean by "different needs"

Uh, word has it that men and women have needs beyond sex.

But if I am mistaken, I guess you lead an interesting life.

 

[Sabour]

Mixed. On one hand I admire that Muslims have adhered relatively strongly to orthodoxy in their faith and they are not afraid to practice what they preach (which unfortunately I can't say for many Jews and mainline Christians). And I do think Islam does a good job on emphasizing on ethical monotheism. OTOH, I think Muhammad is a false prophet/messiah and I find the way he is revered by many in the Islamic faith as almost idolatrous and in some ways reminds me of how communists revered their political leaders. I also find it hard to buy that Muhammad was given the Quran alone in a cave where no one could testify the veracity of the event. Also from personal experience, I am not all too pleased about what I personally saw on the Temple Mount in Israel-Palestine, but that's a whole 'nother rant

I have doubts about Muhammad as prophet of G-d. Also I like alcohol and dogs.

About the Quraan in the cave, what was revealed there was only about 6-7 verses. Not all the Quraan was revealed in the cave and many reported that they were sometimes with him when Muhammad peace be upon him received revelation.

As for dogs, some scholars disagree that one must not have a dog.

 

[beenie]

It is one god manifesting himself in three aspects ("persons"). Just because you don't understand the concept doesn't mean it's polytheism.

It is a matter of perception, mostly. Just as a coin can be seen as one object or two sides, the trinitarian perspective is that God is one, but manifests in three aspects.

Muslims make this faulty argument all the time about the Trinity. Instead of trying to understand the concept, they just assume it's polytheism.

 

[Estro Felino]

Uh, word has it that men and women have needs beyond sex.

yes. and I want to know what these "needs beyond sex" are

 

[Sabour]

Why couldn't Allah send down a revelation that wouldn't become corrupt in the first place? Why did Allah allow the previous revelations (such as those by Moses and Jesus) to become corrupted before he finally sent the Qur'an and afforded it special protection?

It reminds me of the arguments that Christians use to provide validity to their religion against the Mosaic Covenant of the Jews.

It is about how Allah wants things to happen.

Perhaps that ages had different needs. Perhaps it is a test. I dont know the reason and we don't question such things in Islam saying why Allah did this instead of that because Allah is the All Knowing

 

[Sabour]

That is interesting, but leads to some surprising conclusions.

To witness, the last few pages of that PDF rank 208 countries in ascending order of "Islamic Nature", so to speak. Some surprising results. Here is a sample:

- New Zealand, in first, was found to be less Islamic than all the other 207 countries.
- Ireland in third.
- Canada in seventh.
- UK in eighth.
- Australia in ninth.
- France in 18th.
- Spain in 23rd.
- USA in 25th.
- Japan in 29th.
- Malaysia in 38th.
- Kuwait in 48th.
- Brazil and Mexico tied in 55th.
- Israel in 61st.
- United Arab Emirates in 66th.
- Jordan in 77th.
- China and Nicaragua are tied in 81st.
- India in 89th.
- Oman in 99th.
- Turkey in 103rd.
- Kazakhstan in 107th.
- Qatar in 112nd.
- Morocco in 119th.
- Azerbaijan in 125th.
- Saudi Arabia in 131st.
- Indonesia in 140th.
- Pakistan in 147th.
- Bangladesh in 152nd.
- Egypt in 153rd.
- Lebanon in 158th.
- Algeria in 160th.
- Iran in 163rd.
- Afghanistan in 169th.
- Syria in 186th.
- Lybia in 196th.
- Yemen in 198th.
- Iraq in 201st.
- Sudan in 202nd.
- Somalia in 206th.
- West Bank and Gaza in 207th.
- Last and most Islamic of all, Mayotte in 208th.

Some interesting contrasts. For instance:

- Spain apparently does not have too much of an attachment to its strong past cultural influence from Islam.

Despite frequent claims to the contrary, Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq and West Bank and Gaza are all measured as significantly more Islamic than Indonesia.

This is significant, because it is often pointed out that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in the whole Arab world. Indonesia has about 240 million people, about 85% of them being Muslims. Not quite as many as I expected, actually. Indonesia has more Muslims than any other country, but it can't beat (say) India and Pakistan together.

It is interesting also to note that Israel is more Islamic than both Kuwait and Malaysia, which to me indicates that the criteria used value the raw number of Muslims a bit too much. Are we truly to think of China as more Islamic than the United Arab Emirates? Is India more Islamic than Jordan? Cuba slightly more Islamic than Pakistan?

This is a statement taken from the abstract to show what the study is about, here it is
This IslamicityIndex (or I2) measures 208 countries adherence to Islamic principles using four sub-indices related to economics, legal and governance, human and political rights, and international relations.

So in that aspect, theses countries are closer to the Islamic teaching than what they call them the Islamic countries simply because they have one or two teaching of Islam followed.

 

[beenie]

I want to know about the different needs for men and women too, please.

 

[LuisDantas]

yes. and I want to know what these "needs beyond sex" are

According to Muslims, Islam and/or the Quran, you mean?

The stereotypical view would suggest that they involve making certain that men are obeyed and that women are protected; that both genders must seek marriage and children as basically a duty to society, regardless of personal preferences; that homosexuality is just flat out wrong; that while women can divorce, they should not expect to have much of a chance of ever marrying again; that men should avoid looking at the faces of women not of their families unless in open, honest courtship; and that it is just not proper for a Muslim woman to even consider marriage to a non-Muslim.

And, last but not least, I sincerely believe that Islamic values all but completely forbid even the idea of having sex outside of marriage.

 

[Estro Felino]

I want to know about the different needs for men and women too, please.

Thank you. so do I.

 

[LuisDantas]

Muslims make this faulty argument all the time about the Trinity. Instead of trying to understand the concept, they just assume it's polytheism.

Come to think of it, what does monotheism actually mean?

In a very real sense, even strict and sincere monotheism does in fact involve a miriad aspects of God, since each believer will have his or her own conception, understanding and perception of God.

Monotheism will of course state that ultimately those are just customized or even flawed understandings of the one true God. While that may well be correct, how much of a practical difference does it make, and how much sense it makes as an objection to Hindu Henotheism or Christian Trinitarianism? Not much, IMO.

 

[Sabour]

What exactly is "real Islam" to you?

Real Islam at the first stage would be when a muslim become righteous in the way the Quraan describes. It is when he starts loving for his brothers in humanity what he loves for himself. There will be no envy between them.
I will quote shiranui to answer that

The Islam that preaches freedom of religion, social justice, love and compassion for others, non-aggression, defense of the poor and downtrodden against oppressors, showing mercy to those who surrender in battle and treating them well and with honor, protecting women if their husbands accuse them of rape without witnesses, paying money to free slaves and help those in debt, allowing non-Muslims to keep their churches, temples, statues, bells and processions and practice their religion without interference, giving charity to the poor, advancing the fields of medicine, science and mathematics, advocating reason and open dialogue with all? I would like this Islam a lot. It's a shame it seems much rarer these days, ever since the Crusades 800 years ago. If my spiritual path starts taking me away from Orthodox Christianity, I might even consider joining this Islam.

Would women have the same rights as men? Would they be forced to cover themselves or stay at home?

Allah orders women to wear hijab or niqab in the Quraan. Doing so is being obedient to Allah. However no one is to force anyone about anything. As man we are ordered to lower from our gaze. We are not asked to force women to do anything.

Would non-Muslims have the same rights as Muslims? Would they have the right to practice their religion freely? Would atheists and those who leave Islam have full rights?

Yes. Non muslims should have the same rights.

As for those who leave Islam, I leave this for scholars to have the say about it.

Would lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people have full rights or at least be able to openly live as who we are?

Openly live and practice? No. Actions have implications on societies as whole. Acting on emotions towards the same sex is considered a major sin and we dont want our children to grow asking why two men are living together.

 

[Sabour]

Thank you. so do I.

Here are two links.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2MOmTy_XBg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lgptvKE9rw

 

[LuisDantas]

0ne-Answer, I hope you don't mind: this is the text of your post #296 above, corrected on its BBCode.

You may want to try simply inserting "(/quote)" at the end of your post #296 (using the square brackets instead of parenthesis). Also, the color code in RGB seems not to be supported in this forum. I substituted the word "Red" in order to make the text readable.

What exactly is "real Islam" to you?

Real Islam at the first stage would be when a muslim become righteous in the way the Quraan describes. It is when he starts loving for his brothers in humanity what he loves for himself. There will be no envy between them.
I will quote shiranui to answer that

The Islam that preaches freedom of religion, social justice, love and compassion for others, non-aggression, defense of the poor and downtrodden against oppressors, showing mercy to those who surrender in battle and treating them well and with honor, protecting women if their husbands accuse them of rape without witnesses, paying money to free slaves and help those in debt, allowing non-Muslims to keep their churches, temples, statues, bells and processions and practice their religion without interference, giving charity to the poor, advancing the fields of medicine, science and mathematics, advocating reason and open dialogue with all? I would like this Islam a lot. It's a shame it seems much rarer these days, ever since the Crusades 800 years ago. If my spiritual path starts taking me away from Orthodox Christianity, I might even consider joining this Islam.



Would women have the same rights as men? Would they be forced to cover themselves or stay at home?

Allah orders women to wear hijab or niqab in the Quraan. Doing so is being obedient to Allah. However no one is to force anyone about anything. As man we are ordered to lower from our gaze. We are not asked to force women to do anything.

Would non-Muslims have the same rights as Muslims? Would they have the right to practice their religion freely? Would atheists and those who leave Islam have full rights?

Yes. Non muslims should have the same rights.

As for those who leave Islam, I leave this for scholars to have the say about it.

Would lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people have full rights or at least be able to openly live as who we are?

Openly live and practice? No. Actions have implications on societies as whole. Acting on emotions towards the same sex is considered a major sin and we dont want our children to grow asking why two men are living together.

 

[Sabour]

0ne-Answer, I hope you don't mind: this is the text of your post #296 above, corrected on its BBCode.

You may want to try simply inserting "(/quote)" at the end of your post #296 (using the square brackets instead of parenthesis). Also, the color code in RGB seems not to be supported in this forum. I substituted the word "Red" in order to make the text readable.

Many thanks, it is a bad idea to answer from a mobile after all

I have edited the post.

Thanks again

 

[YmirGF]

Well there is no secret that we are against that teaching in "Christianity" however what you have provided about ranking is not true.

2:136 Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

49:13 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

That is true from the stance of Allah, apparently, however "on the ground" Muhammad's words and claims supersede anything that came before him. Anything that was at variance with what Muhammad claimed was deemed to be due to corruption, often willful corruption. In general terms, Muslims go to the words and deeds of Muhammad, not Jesus, first and foremost, as he was allegedly the "final" prophet. I stand by my claim that this places Jesus as being #3 in the Islamic pecking order.

I don't know where did you get the compelling thing but that is not true.

Say what?

SAHIH BUKHARI

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me."

Sahih Bukhari : Book of "Revelation"
Muhammad's first revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In that case I would say you are wrong in your thinking as I believe we are not the one to judge how things must be conducted and how God should send us revelations.

I guess we simply disagree as I deem that so-called "revelation" is akin to intellectual bankruptcy.

You say that this is not your way, well that is of little significance because God does what he wants. So the real question is what is the way that God chose. It is not how you or me prefer it for God knows which is a better way.

Assuming, of course, that said god is an actual being.

As you read the Quraan, God will always tell you to think and reflect on things and you can see some direct challenges.

I guess it depends on how much Kool-Aid one is willing to swallow, really, or put in other terms just how much "suspension of disbelief" is applied.