Your position about Islam

[xkatz]

About the Quraan in the cave, what was revealed there was only about 6-7 verses. Not all the Quraan was revealed in the cave and many reported that they were sometimes with him when Muhammad peace be upon him received revelation.

I guess that's a fair point to make but it still doesn't change the fact it started in the cave. Also, I don't see why G-d couldn't just give everything at once Himself as with the Torah.

As for dogs, some scholars disagree that one must not have a dog.

Fair enough.

 

[Sabour]

Quite frankly, the Bible is a rather poor comparison parameter.

I wish Christians and Muslims did not compare Christianity and Islam quite so often, as if they somehow had each other as a main contestant.

The fact of the matter is that both faiths share quite a few major deficiencies, often actually failing to notice their existence altogether, and even taking pride on such flaws.

Where I live there are only Christians around, that is why I always use Christianity to compare Islam with. I am familiar with it. I think that in your case I am trying to build something without having the basis to do it. The basis that I am talking about is the belief in God. I think that is why you have that stand about both Christianity and Islam. For our love for our religion is because of our love for Allah. I don't think that would make much sense for one who doesn't believe in God.

As it turns out, one of those flaws is over-reliance on scripture. These days most Christians have learned better than to simply assume that scripture is always wise and worth taking into consideration.

Allow me if I may one more time to talk about Christianity/Islam. Christians don't say that the bible is the word of God, at least not today. There is a huge difference.

I don't know that such an approach is even possible in Islam, though. It has been said, apparently not without reason, that the equivalent of Jesus in Islam is not Mohammed, but rather the Quran.

I was surprised when I read that but now that I have reflected on it, my guess is that because Islam says Jesus peace be upon him was one of the greatest prophets, and we take our actions based from the Quraan. While Christians take their actions, supposedly from the sayings of Jesus peace be upon him. In my imagination that would be the closest reason to that statement.

On that I agree. However, there is a very palpable deficiency of questioning of traditional expectations about the genders in Islamic communities. What was respectful 1400 years ago will often be quite unproper now.

That is subject to what Islam has to say about women.

You would be surprised by how much more worth a honest, open, sincere adherence to another path can have as an alternative to nominal agreement on belief matters.

Perhaps for some paths.

 

[Sabour]

Muslims make this faulty argument all the time about the Trinity. Instead of trying to understand the concept, they just assume it's polytheism.

This concept contradicts logic and it is bible proved that it is wrong.

 

[Sabour]

I guess that's a fair point to make but it still doesn't change the fact it started in the cave. Also, I don't see why G-d couldn't just give everything at once Himself as with the Torah.

Fair enough.

One of the major teachings of Islam is to take things step by step. Verses were revealed when needed so that adherents can grasp the complete message of Islam step by step. If you are suddenly asking a person to change his whole life, there would come a time where he would collapse.

For example, take the prohibition of Alcohol which was done in three stages because Arabs were at that time heavy drinkers before Islam, so things were taken step by step

The gradual prohibition came in 3 verses in the following order:

Surah 2:219

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

Then....

Surah 4:43

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say.....

Then....

Surah 5:90

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper.

 

[Sabour]

That is true from the stance of Allah, apparently, however "on the ground" Muhammad's words and claims supersede anything that came before him. Anything that was at variance with what Muhammad claimed was deemed to be due to corruption, often willful corruption. In general terms, Muslims go to the words and deeds of Muhammad, not Jesus, first and foremost, as he was allegedly the "final" prophet. I stand by my claim that this places Jesus as being #3 in the Islamic pecking order.

That is the way you see it, but Quraan makes it clear that this is not the case. It is just that Muhammad peace be upon him was the last prophet and Quraan was the last revelation. This is why things seem that way

Say what?

Sahih Bukhari : Book of "Revelation"
Muhammad's first revelation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is not an act of compelling you are referring to. If some one asks you to do something three repetitive times and you think that you can't do it it doesn't mean that he is compelling you to do it. The word "read" also means "recite" in that context.

 

[Parsimony]

First, reasons for covering the heads are shown in the Quraan and in the Sunna and women are free to follow or not, but that doesn't really mean it is not an Islamic requirement.

Enlighten me.

Second I am not familiar with the fact that celibacy is forbidden, this is something I would ask about.

I've heard from at least two other Muslims that it is, but so far as I know that might be a matter of interpretation.

How about some debates between Islam and Christianity and reading the Quraan ?

I don't know what reading the Quran is supposed to do in terms of giving me evidence. The evidence I need is of the supernatural. Not just of the supernatural, but evidence that is stronger than the supernatural claims of other religions (or at least good reasons to believe that the supernatural claims of Islam are correct and those of other religions are false).

 

[viole]

These were at the times of the prophets where miracles were in place to prove that prophets are actually prophets.

Who would believe them otherwise?

We still have the Quraan miracle if you like to check it out.

I am sure you have. Every holy book has its miracles. Who would believe them, otherwise.

The question is what you believe first. The holy book, or the miracles? If you believe the holy book first, then you believe de-facto everything it contains, no matter how weird. If the miracles strengthen your belief in the holy book, then you suffer from self reinforcing circular reasoning.

On the other hand, if you believe the miracles first, what led you to consider them more plausible than the miracles of other books?

I will ask if I found my self in that situation.

And who are you going to ask?

I think you will have another logistic problem. I heard it is forbidden to defecate in the direction of the Mecca. But what do you do when you are the antipodes and the Mecca lies exacly below you?

Ciao

- viole

 

[YmirGF]

That is the way you see it, but Quraan makes it clear that this is not the case. It is just that Muhammad peace be upon him was the last prophet and Quraan was the last revelation. This is why things seem that way

Ah, so this has nothing to do with Muslim seeing Muhammad as being an example of the perfect man? I don't think I have ever heard a Muslim call Jesus a perfect man... By default, that would make him ... #3... Frankly, I do not know why you are even arguing the point it is so abundantly obvious.

This is not an act of compelling you are referring to. If some one asks you to do something three repetitive times and you think that you can't do it it doesn't mean that he is compelling you to do it. The word "read" also means "recite" in that context.

LOL. The red part is the very definition of compulsion. Again, I do not understand how you could possibly argue the point. Islam began... was born of... compulsion.

 

[LuisDantas]

This concept contradicts logic and it is bible proved that it is wrong.

Personally, I just don't see why people care so much about whether Trinitarianism is compatible with Monotheism or not.

Ultimately, it does not really matter. It is not like even sincere monotheists have anything resembling an uniform perception of what God is like. And Trinitarianism is nothing more than a statement that God is One, but manifests in three main roles or aspects. Yet some people almost seem to believe that a Trinitarian will deny the existence of the Father in order to worship the Son or the Holy Ghost.

When the chips are down, the actual relevance is not that of how many Gods one believes in, but on what one finds proper or interesting to pursue.

 

[vskipper]

Topic title: Your position about Islam
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Sadly, the Koran is open to different interpretations, for example hardlime extremist muslims use the harsh bits to kill us, but easy-going muslims say the harsh bits only apply to Mohammed's time, and not to our modern times.

I know the Bible too has got harsh bits, but they're only in the Old Testament, and Jesus TRASHED them by giving us a New Testament..

"Not a dot or iota shall pass away..."

Explain Westboro Baptist, the group from Wacco, TX, the KKK, Christian Neo Nazi groups...

People who want only others like themselves to believe as they do will use religion, political ideology or any other means to force uniformity. When the life of the prophet is read (not written by those with blatant anti islamic worldview) before reading the Qur'an it makes a lot more sense. Also simply reading what was occurring during the "revelation" helps.

I think that sociopaths see what they want to see regardless of what they are following.

 

[vskipper]

Another thing- no disrespect to him, but Mohammed is in a grave but Jesus is not.
Spot the difference?

according to the Bible there are 2 others who were ascended to heaven before Jesus. Might want to think through your replies

 

[vskipper]

I am not familiar with the term apologist, although I have heard it a lot.

Well I would agree to what you said and linking it to building and stuff, but what I am doing on this thread is replying to everyone based on his answers.

You've said that Muhammad peace be upon him was who came up with them when all Islamic and non Islamic sources agree that Muhammad peace be upon him couldn't read or right.

Doing things logically is a way to go. Enemies of Islam have been since the beginning and the Quraan openly challenges anyone to come up with like when chapter of the Quraan. Why enemies of Islam at that time didn't do it when they are are best in poetry. Also logically, it is impossible for a one man, no matter how ambitious he was, to be able to do what Muhammad peace be upon him did.


I would suggest that you would read about Gary Miller and how he approached Quraan and tried to prove it wrong, but he ended up being a muslim.


Back to your building example, frankly, I don't know where to start, if that concerns you

Where in religious history does a messenger of peace on behalf of Gd choke the receipient?

 

[LuisDantas]

Where I live there are only Christians around, that is why I always use Christianity to compare Islam with. I am familiar with it. I think that in your case I am trying to build something without having the basis to do it. The basis that I am talking about is the belief in God. I think that is why you have that stand about both Christianity and Islam. For our love for our religion is because of our love for Allah. I don't think that would make much sense for one who doesn't believe in God.

Fair enough. It is true that while I find theism legitimate, I do not think of it as particularly important even in Christianity and Islam.

Allow me if I may one more time to talk about Christianity/Islam. Christians don't say that the bible is the word of God, at least not today. There is a huge difference.

That does vary somewhat. Some Christians (fortunately not too many) make a point of quoting the Bible often and seem to think of it as some sort of supreme reference.

I was surprised when I read that but now that I have reflected on it, my guess is that because Islam says Jesus peace be upon him was one of the greatest prophets, and we take our actions based from the Quraan. While Christians take their actions, supposedly from the sayings of Jesus peace be upon him. In my imagination that would be the closest reason to that statement.

I think we are on much the same page on this matter.

That is subject to what Islam has to say about women

Indeed, the treatment of and expectations about women in Muslim / Islamic societies are one of its aspects that most urgently need to be reconsidered. There is a lot of well-meaning and perhaps not so well-meaning discrimination causing unnecessary sorrow.

Perhaps for some paths.

Nearly all, actually. Some paths are outright destructive, no doubt. But even a sincere mistake can is usually more constructive on the long run than a right decision made without proper understanding and consideration of the context.
Or, to put it in another way: it is not really possible for a society to develop well and wisely out of respect for rules alone. Even (and probably all the more so) if those rules are supposedly a direct gift from God Himself.

 

[outhouse]

This concept contradicts logic and it is bible proved that it is wrong.

So does thinking muhammad did not plagiarize the bible, it defies all logic.

 

[sun rise]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssainhu
Muslims make this faulty argument all the time about the Trinity. Instead of trying to understand the concept, they just assume it's polytheism.

This concept contradicts logic and it is bible proved that it is wrong.

What Biblical chapter and verse are you referring to. The reason I ask can be found in discussions such as the following which assert that the concept of the Trinity is not in the Bible.
Is the Trinity Biblical? | United Church of God

 

[sun rise]

As far as the relative status of the Islamic world today, a historical comparison could be made to Europe after the fall of Rome compared to the advanced Islamic civilizations of the time. Civilizations rise and fall. I assert that what holds many nations back today is not their majority religion but other factors.

 

[outhouse]

What Biblical chapter and verse are you referring to. The reason I ask can be found in discussions such as the following which assert that the concept of the Trinity is not in the Bible.
Is the Trinity Biblical? | United Church of God

It does not have to be in the bible, it is Christian dogma.

And it really is polytheism.


A study done at the Vatican showed that out of all saints prophets and gods, people that prayed to jesus were #6 on the list

 

[outhouse]

As far as the relative status of the Islamic world today, a historical comparison could be made to Europe after the fall of Rome compared to the advanced Islamic civilizations of the time. Civilizations rise and fall. I assert that what holds many nations back today is not their majority religion but other factors.

Ya well the problem with this religion is it permeates the culture much more then any other religion.

It is not a religion to these people like it is in the USA, for them it is a way of life.


Fanaticism and fundamentalism are ingrained and required.


In the USA many of us do not live religion, even the religious. I grew up in a religious family and went to a private church school, and even then religion was not ingrained to ever aspect of society

 

[Shuttlecraft]

:..according to the Bible there are 2 others who were ascended to heaven before Jesus...

Jesus said- "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - me." (John 3:13)
so you can argue it out with him when you meet him.
Meanwhile if you care to tell us which specific other verses you're talking about, we can take a look at them in context.

 

[columbus]

Jesus said- "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - me." (John 3:13)
so you can argue it out with him when you meet him.
Meanwhile if you care to tell us which specific other verses you're talking about, we can take a look at them in context.

Entering Heaven alive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's really interesting.

Tom