Your position about Islam

[outhouse]

Well, anytime you are interested in an honest discussion, I'll be here - waiting...

Ya good luck with that.


From what I have learned about all muslims, is there is some kind of issue where they do not answer honestly or straight forward.

Its part of the religions natural response to avoid questions regarding reality, is my guess.

 

[Sabour]

Well, anytime you are interested in an honest discussion, I'll be here - waiting...

It was an honest discussion from my side. I assure you that.

 

[Sabour]

Ya good luck with that.


From what I have learned about all muslims, is there is some kind of issue where they do not answer honestly or straight forward.

Its part of the religions natural response to avoid questions regarding reality, is my guess.

Yep that is why before yesterday I spent 4 hours replying to questions on this thread alone.

 

[Sabour]

You're the one who said there could've been different needs for different people in different ages. So you contradicted yourself.

I am failing to see how I did that.

I told you that at that times it may have been because of different needs, but things change. Islam is now suitable for our age also

 

[LuisDantas]

Yep that is why before yesterday I spent 4 hours replying to questions on this thread alone.

While your dedication is acknowledged, it does not seem to be interested in going too far beyond statements of faith in the Quran and in Islam.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am failing to see how I did that.

I told you that at that times it may have been because of different needs, but things change. Islam is now suitable for our age also

You're making it worse for yourself. Islam is supposed to be the eternal religion for humanity, yes? It's supposed to be the religion of the Adam, yes? Well, if things change, then how can you say that Islam is the eternal religion when it apparently wasn't necessary for all times, places and peoples?

Perhaps Islam is just the religion of a certain time, place and people and Allah will send someone else in the future.

 

[Sabour]

You're making it worse for yourself. Islam is supposed to be the eternal religion for humanity, yes? It's supposed to be the religion of the Adam, yes? Well, if things change, then how can you say that Islam is the eternal religion when it apparently wasn't necessary for all times, places and peoples?

Perhaps Islam is just the religion of a certain time, place and people and Allah will send someone else in the future.

Islam as we know today from the Quraan was revealed to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Past revelations were the Injeel and the Torah ....


I am explaining perhaps the reasons why there were other revelations before.

Some details ma be different between Torah Injeel and the Quraan. But essentially they have the same message.

 

[Sabour]

While your dedication is acknowledged, it does not seem to be interested in going too far beyond statements of faith in the Quran and in Islam.

I would do this if someone asked me to and I was up for it.

My point was showing what actually Islam is about.

 

[Parsimony]

I am glad you asked about that word. I read the verse again in Arabic and it is only the translation that I used that used the word abuse. I think other translations would use different words.

They I find is that an appropriate word or expression is having no harm.

That Harm is not necessarily physical, it can be words they hear or stuff like that ....

About the men covering hear, where did you get this from?

I'm asking why men do not have to cover their hair if women do. Why should one sex have to do it but not the other?

What about prophecies? What about scientific signs?

I would need some examples.

If you are open to the possibility, I suggest you look sincerely into it and ask God for guidance.

Been doing that for quite a while now.

 

[sun rise]

I don't agree with trying to apply the historical view of women in Islam to today's world. But, to be fair, it's not a black/white situation as this article demonstrates. A couple of these 7 are about gender segregated colleges. But most don't:

Seven Realities About Arab Women that Most of the World Does Not Know

Lebanese women had the right to vote before several European countries gave that right to their women

Women make up the majority of university populations in two-thirds of the Arab countries.

One of the most internationally known architects in the world is Zaha Hadid, an Iraqi woman architect.

A Saudi young woman invented a nanorobot to reduce medical errors.

The emergence of Arab women filmmakers.

 

[outhouse]

While your dedication is acknowledged, it does not seem to be interested in going too far beyond statements of faith in the Quran and in Islam.

The cherry picking has been obvious :yes:

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not sure whether it is cherry picking, or whether we should expect any differently.

There is a disarming undercurrent of sincere eagerness running through this. I truly think he is giving us the best he has, as is Yusuf Estes in those videos.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

[outhouse]

I am not sure whether it is cherry picking, or whether we should expect any differently.

.

Good point. I didn't


Its sad. Ask any question that deviates from the Koran and the literalism stops them from answering with any logic or reason, I found that better then saying dishonestly.

The fanaticism is ingrained into the culture much more deep then what were used to.


I didn't know the problem was so bad.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

That is always bound to happen, it is not an Islam thing. I don't agree that there is more potential for harm than many other religions. If you read the bible, you can see more potential for that.

No doubt the bible has its fair share of problems and I don't explicitly feel that Islam is inherently more dangerous than Christianity except for a few sections. for example the Jihad. The struggle has probably done the greatest harm in terms of warping the religion to sanction violent deeds than any other portion of Islam.

Women and men have different needs. So women are given high attention. Being equal doesn't mean treating them the same.

Women and men are both still people. What "needs" are different? And being equal does mean receiving equal treatment. There is no "separate but equal" reality.

I was talking about the idea that it was not acceptable. I don't think that anyone would welcome that one would leave his religion. As for the pegan religions, am not sure.

If going to hell in the afterlife is not negative, than what is?
And just to make things clear

Deuteronomy 13

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Quraan doesn't say to kill apostates as you said. Quraan rather says that there is no compulsion in religion and people are free to believe or disbelieve.

1) When did I imply Islam sanctions the killing of Apostates?

2) If Islam is "just as good" or "just as bad" as Christianity ti doesn't paint it in a positive light. This isn't an Islam vs Christianity thread and I'm not arguing against that point. But yes Buddhism, Hinduism (in many cases), Paganism ect are all accepting of apostasy.

But my question is still this. If I were a Muslim and I then became an Atheist. Would I still be welcome by my family?

Yeah I remember once having a debate with you on that. If you are interested read a booklet called faith and progress.

http://www.al-dawah.dk/boger/engelske/pdf/Faith_and_Progress.pdf

I don't recall specifically the debate. If you can find the thread I would be happy. I can read the PDF but it will take some time as I am currently busy.

 

[YmirGF]

I am not sure whether it is cherry picking, or whether we should expect any differently.

There is a disarming undercurrent of sincere eagerness running through this. I truly think he is giving us the best he has, as is Yusuf Estes in those videos.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

If I may, Luis. In this thread we are seeing what is essentially a play on ignorance, the ignorance of non-Muslims in regards to Islam and what Islam teaches. It is heartening to see folks pushing back at what they are being told. I too have no doubt about the sincerity of One-Answer, but even his name is indicative where these discussions will go. There is almost zero possibility that a point raised by a non-Muslim will be seen as valid, especially where theology/mythology is involved. For example, my rather pointed remarks about compulsion. I, for one, don't see how it can be anything BUT compulsion. My guess is that the reason One-Answer disagrees is because he cannot consider the possibility as being serious due to the "House of Cards" nature of Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

Indeed, it looks quite a lot like it has been decided that we who have heard of Islam yet not chosen to follow it can only be in the wrong out of either malice, ignorance or lack of good fortune.

The notion that people may simply legitimaly decide that Islam is wrong is never given serious consideration by many Muslims. Far too many for confort.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would do this if someone asked me to and I was up for it.

My point was showing what actually Islam is about.

You may have succeeded at that, and I guess I should thank you for that. But it is an odd feeling. There has been no shortage of opportunity for you to show us that we are thinking the worst out of misinformation... yet for the most part you just will not.

 

[YmirGF]

I can read the PDF but it will take some time as I am currently busy.

It's a mildly interesting read, but at the same time, a pretty superficial examination and explanation. I was greatly amused at the writers notion that god can be proven. Righto.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It's a mildly interesting read, but at the same time, a pretty superficial examination and explanation. I was greatly amused at the writers notion that god can be proven. Righto.

Just finished it a few minutes ago. It was straightforward but not really convincing in the least. Seemed a bit basic and mostly hinged on "doesn't it seem like it must be true?"

 

[sun rise]

Seriously, how many people do you know who have EVER said "I thought it over and you're right - I've changed my mind" about anything of any personal significance.