Your position about Islam

[Monk Of Reason]

Seriously, how many people do you know who have EVER said "I thought it over and you're right - I've changed my mind" about anything of any personal significance.

I have. On religion, science, philosophy and history. Even my personal political beliefs have been challenged and I have changed them. Very specifically (and most recently) was a particular view on feminism.

 

[sun rise]

I have. On religion, science, philosophy and history. Even my personal political beliefs have been challenged and I have changed them. Very specifically (and most recently) was a particular view on feminism.

It's good to read that. I know that I've been caught by "confirmation bias" and I've seen many others likewise.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It's good to read that. I know that I've been caught by "confirmation bias" and I've seen many others likewise.

I think there is a certain line of thought that views "unchanging" or "dedicated" beliefs to subjects as being desirable. So if you do change your mind you are admitting some kind of weakness.

 

[outhouse]

Seriously, how many people do you know who have EVER said "I thought it over and you're right - I've changed my mind" about anything of any personal significance.

My mind has changed dramatically in the 4 years I have been here.

From tolerance, history, science it has all changed.

Even my views on Paul have changed dramatically, I used to despise him. Out of ignorance I might add.

 

[outhouse]

If I may, Luis. In this thread we are seeing what is essentially a play on ignorance, the ignorance of non-Muslims in regards to Islam and what Islam teaches. It is heartening to see folks pushing back at what they are being told. I too have no doubt about the sincerity of One-Answer, but even his name is indicative where these discussions will go. There is almost zero possibility that a point raised by a non-Muslim will be seen as valid, especially where theology/mythology is involved. For example, my rather pointed remarks about compulsion. I, for one, don't see how it can be anything BUT compulsion. My guess is that the reason One-Answer disagrees is because he cannot consider the possibility as being serious due to the "House of Cards" nature of Islam.

Good reply.

It almost plays both sides of the fence to closely.


I don't think people have a problem with what is taught and are ignorant though as much as the problems your bringing up about OP in your second part which is my complaint.

I think OP is a good guy, but the discussion can only be one sided, with One Answer, with OP, if I must play on words.

 

[Phil25]

2-a I dont think Islam needs reform. I think adherents must come to the real Islam.

b. I don't know what you meant by asking if it is possible, but I always prefer Islamic ruling. However my opinion is of little importance.

3-I agree that Islam is not having good days and that is one of the prophecies. However that changes nothing about Islam, it is not Islam's fault, it is about muslims,

This is exactly the attitude that extremists have. I think Islam needs to recognize that it is not perfect and correct its faults.

Your opinion is shared by millions. I see that you desire a Sharia state. A state where Non Muslims are not equal to Muslim. And dont bring that Muslim apologist argument, that Non Muslims will be allowed to live in peace.
Non Muslims are not Equal to Muslims under Islamic law. And thats not acceptable. Period.

 

[YmirGF]

Seriously, how many people do you know who have EVER said "I thought it over and you're right - I've changed my mind" about anything of any personal significance.

I've always considered it to be simply good form. If someone is able to convince me of something, I have no issue saying so. I've had lots of people say this to me over the years and I've said it to a few.

 

[LuisDantas]

Truth be told, it is rare enough for people to actually try.

Odd as it may seem, most people prefer to instead attempt to impress others with their insistence, depth of feeling, or just to drown them with barrages of quotes and text.

It can't work, of course, but apparently it is not meant to. The goal is usually to convince the "arguer" himself or herself that something was accomplished, the amount of effort and time spent being what passes for evidence.

tl;dr: Pigeon Chess is a very popular sport, even if it has only recently been named.

 

[Sabour]

I'm asking why men do not have to cover their hair if women do. Why should one sex have to do it but not the other?

The Holy Quran addresses men before addressing women in this issue asking men to cover their aura, lower their gaze and dress modestly (Muslim men are not suppossed to wear tight,trasparent clothes neither flashy color , no jewelry, infact silk is not permisible for his attire).
If you go to muslim countries like india, pakistan, saudi - men have loose fitting clothes. also.
The only reason only muslim women get noticed is because the head cover is so obvious.

What you defined as attractive features sure are : wide shoulders, strong arms, face etc - thats Y they need to be covered and hidden behind loose attire. Islam prohibits the flaunt it attitude....
If you look at the fashion industry - male models,actors : their dressing is never modest- they like to flaunt their good features with tight Tshirts, figure hugging pants etc.... You bet they want to ATTRACT GIRLS and they are successful.

Basically female body is more beautiful (thats y its used to sell evey god damn poduct)- and men are more sexual in nature ( let me know if you dont agree and I can share a medical research with you).So the emphasis is more of female covering up but that doesnt take away the responsibility from men "not to stare " and behave modestly themselves.


Also please see this link

Why did Allah Almighty order women to cover up in Islam?

I would need some examples.

Here is a thread I started earlier. I think it would be better to watch youtube videos about miracles in the Quraan so that you would be in a better position to see how things are linked and have a better idea about the subject.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/162366-20-signs-god-exist-quraan-word.html

Here is another video I would like you to watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPiV0_-0RU

 

[Sabour]

If any one thinks I am cherry picking than feel free to quote from the Quraan and show me what Islam is really about

I am not sure whether it is cherry picking, or whether we should expect any differently.

There is a disarming undercurrent of sincere eagerness running through this. I truly think he is giving us the best he has, as is Yusuf Estes in those videos.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

I am glad that you did watch the videos.

 

[Sabour]

No doubt the bible has its fair share of problems and I don't explicitly feel that Islam is inherently more dangerous than Christianity except for a few sections. for example the Jihad. The struggle has probably done the greatest harm in terms of warping the religion to sanction violent deeds than any other portion of Islam.

In simple terms and without getting into details, Jihad is the struggle as you explained, but against what? In terms of fighting, Jihad means to struggle against terrorism.

Here is a link that explains misconceptions, one of which is the Jihad. It is only a 7 minutes video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wRrP_YOKx0

Women and men are both still people. What "needs" are different? And being equal does mean receiving equal treatment. There is no "separate but equal" reality.

What I meant that each sex had different traits and hence different needs. As only an example, women are more emotional and need more attention.

1) When did I imply Islam sanctions the killing of Apostates?

That is what I understood when you said cut off.

2) If Islam is "just as good" or "just as bad" as Christianity ti doesn't paint it in a positive light. This isn't an Islam vs Christianity thread and I'm not arguing against that point. But yes Buddhism, Hinduism (in many cases), Paganism ect are all accepting of apostasy.

I agree on that this is not Christianity vs Islam thread, but I answered with that because you said "Christianity has no negative associations other than going to hell which is only in the afterlife"
I just wanted to clear things up

But my question is still this. If I were a Muslim and I then became an Atheist. Would I still be welcome by my family?

This depends on the individuals themselves. I can't answer that. Some would welcome you and some won't.

I don't recall specifically the debate. If you can find the thread I would be happy. I can read the PDF but it will take some time as I am currently busy.

Here is the thread

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-why-i-think-there-one-right.html#post3729527

I think you started posting in comment 111.

We had some exchanges but than you went off the forums for a long time I think.

 

[Sabour]

If I may, Luis. In this thread we are seeing what is essentially a play on ignorance, the ignorance of non-Muslims in regards to Islam and what Islam teaches. It is heartening to see folks pushing back at what they are being told. I too have no doubt about the sincerity of One-Answer, but even his name is indicative where these discussions will go. There is almost zero possibility that a point raised by a non-Muslim will be seen as valid, especially where theology/mythology is involved. For example, my rather pointed remarks about compulsion. I, for one, don't see how it can be anything BUT compulsion. My guess is that the reason One-Answer disagrees is because he cannot consider the possibility as being serious due to the "House of Cards" nature of Islam.

Thank you for the positive things you've said.

Anyone who knows me enough knows that I take Islam as how we are supposed to be and not what muslims are doing. I think this would explain much of the positions and the ways in which I approach things.

 

[Sabour]

Indeed, it looks quite a lot like it has been decided that we who have heard of Islam yet not chosen to follow it can only be in the wrong out of either malice, ignorance or lack of good fortune.

The notion that people may simply legitimaly decide that Islam is wrong is never given serious consideration by many Muslims. Far too many for confort.

It is not that way.

But many muslims are looked upon to be terrorists and those who worship a moon god and worship to a box in the desert. We are viewed as ignorant and crazy. Even those who don't view us like that still have some invalid points about muslims.

That notion leads us to be downhearted and want to clear things up. We don't think that this is out of people's ingnorance but because of what they have been hearing time after time/.

 

[Sabour]

You may have succeeded at that, and I guess I should thank you for that. But it is an odd feeling. There has been no shortage of opportunity for you to show us that we are thinking the worst out of misinformation... yet for the most part you just will not.

Thanks for pointing this out.

As I explained my point of the thread was about the theology.

I may change this approach when possible and appropriate.

 

[Sabour]

It's a mildly interesting read, but at the same time, a pretty superficial examination and explanation. I was greatly amused at the writers notion that god can be proven. Righto.

Just finished it a few minutes ago. It was straightforward but not really convincing in the least. Seemed a bit basic and mostly hinged on "doesn't it seem like it must be true?"

Thank you guys for reading.

I think that is something which points readers to shape their thinking rather than giving answers or proof.

I don't think anyone can prove to anyone that God exists but rather it is a conclusion that the person himself would reach after reflecting and thinking about things.

There is not that absolute proof. The absolute proof is when a person reaches the conclusion that there is no other way.

 

[Sabour]

Seriously, how many people do you know who have EVER said "I thought it over and you're right - I've changed my mind" about anything of any personal significance.

Many people actually do that. I won't talk about myself, I leave that for others.

 

[Sabour]

This is exactly the attitude that extremists have. I think Islam needs to recognize that it is not perfect and correct its faults.

Your opinion is shared by millions. I see that you desire a Sharia state. A state where Non Muslims are not equal to Muslim. And dont bring that Muslim apologist argument, that Non Muslims will be allowed to live in peace.
Non Muslims are not Equal to Muslims under Islamic law. And thats not acceptable. Period.

Consider it what you want, but I only desire sharia state when it is real sharia we are talking about. And everybody will love it including non muslims. And all people are equal.

 

[Parsimony]

The Holy Quran addresses men before addressing women in this issue asking men to cover their aura, lower their gaze and dress modestly (Muslim men are not suppossed to wear tight,trasparent clothes neither flashy color , no jewelry, infact silk is not permisible for his attire).
If you go to muslim countries like india, pakistan, saudi - men have loose fitting clothes. also.
The only reason only muslim women get noticed is because the head cover is so obvious.

What you defined as attractive features sure are : wide shoulders, strong arms, face etc - thats Y they need to be covered and hidden behind loose attire. Islam prohibits the flaunt it attitude....
If you look at the fashion industry - male models,actors : their dressing is never modest- they like to flaunt their good features with tight Tshirts, figure hugging pants etc.... You bet they want to ATTRACT GIRLS and they are successful.

Basically female body is more beautiful (thats y its used to sell evey god damn poduct)- and men are more sexual in nature ( let me know if you dont agree and I can share a medical research with you).So the emphasis is more of female covering up but that doesnt take away the responsibility from men "not to stare " and behave modestly themselves.

It's a matter of opinion that the "female body is more beautiful". What counts as sexually-provocative dress will vary from culture to culture because of what the residents of that culture are used to.

Also please see this link

Why did Allah Almighty order women to cover up in Islam?

That is too simplifying. A woman isn't turned on just because a strange man touches her nor is it correct to say that they are not sexually attracted to a man's physical appearance.

Here is a thread I started earlier. I think it would be better to watch youtube videos about miracles in the Quraan so that you would be in a better position to see how things are linked and have a better idea about the subject.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/162366-20-signs-god-exist-quraan-word.html

Sorry, but it take a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that those verses indicate what you think they do. It's a perfect example of hindsight bias.

Here is another video I would like you to watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPiV0_-0RU

I'll watch it when I have more time later.

 

[Looncall]

It is a really bad idea to reinforce negative stereotypes about your own group. Your typical muslim sexism is showing.

Did you miss all the pictures of hordes of muslim men running through the streets screaming? As in the Danish cartoons incident?

 

[Sabour]

It is a really bad idea to reinforce negative stereotypes about your own group. Your typical muslim sexism is showing.

Did you miss all the pictures of hordes of muslim men running through the streets screaming? As in the Danish cartoons incident?

Since you brought that up, watch this 3 minutes video please

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_7YD0w3zms