Your position about Islam

[MD]

Haven't you heard the calls for air bombings in the Middle East?

Let's face it, America is a Christian nation. And many American troops are very religious Christians.

And ISIS has been committing genocide against religious minorities, Christians being one of them. Although the powers that be aren't doing this in the name of Christianity, the American public that supports it is.

 

[Tabb]

That's such a ******** idea that it makes me wonder whether you're actually an agnostic or a fanatic parading as one.

There have LOTS of genocides in the history of Islam which had nothing to do with Western intervention. The slave trade was started by Arabs and they traded twice as many African slaves as the Europeans did. The genocides of religious minorities has happened for hundreds of years in the middle east before Western intervention.

And the West has movements which question and try to stop its wars. Does the Islamic world have the same?

Oh it's easy for me to reconcile this with being an agnostic. I think all of this has more to do with politics than belief in God. Religion is only used as the glue that binds them. To correct you on the slave trade, it was started by Africans. They sold the prisoners of tribal wars to Europeans. The Arabs later became middle men for this. You seem to see every thing Arabs do as being religiously motivated. You blame Islam for any bad act of its Adherents. Do you do the same for other religions.

I sound like a Muslim only because I seem to be the only non Muslim here trying to maitain an unbiased view of world events. Do Muslims do stupid things that I disagree with. Hell yeah. I find a lot of their customs archaic and stupid. Their treatment of women I find unacceptable.

I've been is this world for over 66 yrs. I've seen racism in this country taken to a level that would match the brutality of any era in any culture. So when I here the holier than thou attitude of some on this forum I just shake my head.

 

[MD]

Oh it's easy for me to reconcile this with being an agnostic. I think all of this has more to do with politics than belief in God. Religion is only used as the glue that binds them. To correct you on the slave trade, it was started by Africans. They sold the prisoners of tribal wars to Europeans. The Arabs later became middle men for this. You seem to see every thing Arabs do as being religiously motivated. You blame Islam for any bad act of its Adherents. Do you do the same for other religions.

I sound like a Muslim only because I seem to be the only non Muslim here trying to maitain an unbiased view of world events. Do Muslims do stupid things that I disagree with. Hell yeah. I find a lot of their customs archaic and stupid. Their treatment of women I find unacceptable.

I've been is this world for over 66 yrs. I've seen racism in this country taken to a level that would match the brutality of any era in any culture. So when I here the holier than thou attitude of some on this forum I just shake my head.

The arabs were in the slave trade for 10 centuries, the Europeans for 4. The dutch learned from the arabs. The word Kaffir given to non Muslim Africans, was used as an excuse for Muslim Africans to trade the non Muslim Africans. I myself have some sub Saharan African DNA due to the fact that my ancestors were slaves due to my religion, who mixed with the African slaves in Iran. I am living proof of the slave trade in the Islamic world. Most middle easterners have North African or East African haplotypes in their admixture, the sub Saharan is almost non existent unless they are the descendant of slaves.

I blame other religions too, but almost no one kills in the name of religion these days. The American wars are for resources and greed. The Russian wars are for imperialism. The Islamic wars are for Islamic expansion.

Half my family is from the middle east, they have witnessed things that would make your blood cold and hot at the same time. I am not speaking out Muslims, I would never call for violence against human beings. I'm speaking out against salafism and fanaticism, which is spreading.

 

[outhouse]

Haven't you heard the calls for air bombings in the Middle East?

I think there was confusion in our replies. I was originally addressing YEC not muslims in part of my context.

 

[England my lionheart]

I hope that only interested member about the topic would reply to it.

I have been pointed to create this thread in this section so I would be able to debate things.



Please note that some complex questions may require some time so I can get the answer to. I may also answer some question along with youtube videos.

I wish questions would be more directed towards theology and about Islam rather than being about Muslims and what they seem to do.

After all, not all muslims represent Islam. I would like to start with a misconception about Islam. This misconception is that we hate Jesus peace be upon him. As a matter of fact we don't and it is the other way round. Jesus peace be upon him is one of the greatest prophets in Islam and no one can be a muslim without believing in him and his miraculous birth from the mother Mary. There are far more misconceptions about Islam an here I would like to shed light and debate some of them


Two things I wish to hear from members so we can debate when there is a room for debate. I would be basing my answers from the Quraan when possible.

1- What is your position about Islam?

Its not for me but if you are born into it then its probably for you.

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

Yes,where in the world is a living working example of Islams beauty.

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

I'll just say its not for me because even the Qur'an on its own is hard for me to like reading but the amount of reading to take in the myriad of sunni shia qur'anist Ahmadi Bai hai views of Islam tells me that it was authored by a human,obviously that's just my opinion.

 

[Tabb]

The arabs were in the slave trade for 10 centuries, the Europeans for 4. The dutch learned from the arabs. The word Kaffir given to non Muslim Africans, was used as an excuse for Muslim Africans to trade the non Muslim Africans. I myself have some sub Saharan African DNA due to the fact that my ancestors were slaves due to my religion, who mixed with the African slaves in Iran. I am living proof of the slave trade in the Islamic world. Most middle easterners have North African or East African haplotypes in their admixture, the sub Saharan is almost non existent unless they are the descendant of slaves.

I blame other religions too, but almost no one kills in the name of religion these days. The American wars are for resources and greed. The Russian wars are for imperialism. The Islamic wars are for Islamic expansion.

Half my family is from the middle east, they have witnessed things that would make your blood cold and hot at the same time. I am not speaking out Muslims, I would never call for violence against human beings. I'm speaking out against salafism and fanaticism, which is spreading.

I'm not avoiding this argument but we're getting way off topic here with a slavery argument. It was evil no matter who was involved.

Why wars happen are never as simple as we try to make it. Sometimes wars happen as a result of a chain of events that are totally avoidable. Sometimes they happen because of alliances as in WW1. Sometimes it's just an evil ruler in power lying to his people. If you want to be an unbiased observer you have to put yourself in the other guys shoes before making judgements. Can you honestly say that western powers hands are clean from the violence happening in the Middle East? My whole point is that it is not a black and white situation happening now in the middle east. It is more complicated than just a quest for Islamic converts. Try looking behind the curtain if you want the truth.

 

[MD]

I'm not avoiding this argument but we're getting way off topic here with a slavery argument. It was evil no matter who was involved.

Why wars happen are never as simple as we try to make it. Sometimes wars happen as a result of a chain of events that are totally avoidable. Sometimes they happen because of alliances as in WW1. Sometimes it's just an evil ruler in power lying to his people. If you want to be an unbiased observer you have to put yourself in the other guys shoes before making judgements. Can you honestly say that western powers hands are clean from the violence happening in the Middle East? My whole point is that it is not a black and white situation happening now in the middle east. It is more complicated than just a quest for Islamic converts. Try looking behind the curtain if you want the truth.

Maybe. But to me it's personal, as a Zoroastrian whose community faced several genocides and witnessed horrors during the Iranian Islamic revolution. And to see the Yezidis, who are an offshoot of my own religion, go through another genocide, where the women are sold as sex slaves, and the men were killed by the thousands for belonging to a religion is too much to just think of it as 'imperialistic powers playing games'.

Sure the U.S. messed up Iraq and the West has been doing so for a century. But to me, this has been happening for a 1000 years and it's old. You will never understand that and have been brainwashed by the Islamic conspiracy theories. All of you western liberals have, which is why you are traitors to the civilization which gave you the rights to defend fanatics.

 

[icehorse]

An agnostic Jew can answer you to that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g

I've heard this talk before - it's a fine talk.

But to me it misses the point. We can summarize Lesley Hazleton's talk down to a few points:

1 - Spoken out loud, the Quran sounds poetic and musical.
2 - The Quran often paints beautiful visual pictures in our minds.

I'm more than happy to grant you those points, I've heard parts of the Quran chanted or sung, and it can indeed be quite mesmerizing.

So if you were to claim that it's a beautiful piece of written art, I would not argue.

But the problem is not how pretty it sounds musically. The problem is that - regardless of what moderate Muslims claim - for 1400 years, generation after generation of Muslims read this book and take away violent and intolerant messages. The book has a tendency to convey bad ideas.

 

[icehorse]

I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to blame backwardness.
In fact lots of Christian missionaries are murdered in African countries. They only provide food and healthcare. They were killed because they were Christians
Should we blame religion for that? No. We blame mysticism and backwardness.
But if you don't start rejecting backwardness and tradition, things won't ever change.

This is a useful perspective. Why can't we blame backwardness? All religions are guilty. I think that the RC church should be demonized for making aid conditional on not using condoms - it's inhuman. It's backwards.

 

[Tabb]

I hope that only interested member about the topic would reply to it.

I have been pointed to create this thread in this section so I would be able to debate things.



Please note that some complex questions may require some time so I can get the answer to. I may also answer some question along with youtube videos.

I wish questions would be more directed towards theology and about Islam rather than being about Muslims and what they seem to do.

After all, not all muslims represent Islam. I would like to start with a misconception about Islam. This misconception is that we hate Jesus peace be upon him. As a matter of fact we don't and it is the other way round. Jesus peace be upon him is one of the greatest prophets in Islam and no one can be a muslim without believing in him and his miraculous birth from the mother Mary. There are far more misconceptions about Islam an here I would like to shed light and debate some of them


Two things I wish to hear from members so we can debate when there is a room for debate. I would be basing my answers from the Quraan when possible.

1- What is your position about Islam?

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

I feel your pain. I've been labeled a closet Muslim because I refuse to look at things from a Christian American point of view. I'm just trying to be fair in understanding Islam's influence on events. The refusal of some to put religion, politics, and culture in prospective is astounding.

My religious position is to respect all religions based on the honorable fact that they all exist to acknowledge and praise a higher power, God.

 

[Tabb]

Maybe. But to me it's personal, as a Zoroastrian whose community faced several genocides and witnessed horrors during the Iranian Islamic revolution. And to see the Yezidis, who are an offshoot of my own religion, go through another genocide, where the women are sold as sex slaves, and the men were killed by the thousands for belonging to a religion is too much to just think of it as 'imperialistic powers playing games'.

Sure the U.S. messed up Iraq and the West has been doing so for a century. But to me, this has been happening for a 1000 years and it's old. You will never understand that and have been brainwashed by the Islamic conspiracy theories. All of you western liberals have, which is why you are traitors to the civilization which gave you the rights to defend fanatics.

I empathize with you on the evil violence that has happened to your people and others. My argument is not to defend those evils but to appreciate that evil done in the name of a religion does not define the religion. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people. To judge an entire religion based on action of a few is wrong.

 

[LuisDantas]

I feel your pain. I've been labeled a closet Muslim because I refuse to look at things from a Christian American point of view. I'm just trying to be fair in understanding Islam's influence on events. The refusal of some to put religion, politics, and culture in prospective is astounding.

My religious position is to respect all religions based on the honorable fact that they all exist to acknowledge and praise a higher power, God.

Not all of them. And quite frankly, we all are that much better for it.

I don't think it is even possible to get all the Abrahamic religions to agree on what God wants, anyway.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

In simple terms and without getting into details, Jihad is the struggle as you explained, but against what? In terms of fighting, Jihad means to struggle against terrorism.

Here is a link that explains misconceptions, one of which is the Jihad. It is only a 7 minutes video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wRrP_YOKx0

And I have stated repeatedly that the point or "correct" interpretation itself doesn't even matter. The fact that it can so easily be used to incite violence was a concern I have.

What I meant that each sex had different traits and hence different needs. As only an example, women are more emotional and need more attention.

I don't agree. I think that women should be treated as a man should and I have known some cold unfeeling women and I have met men who were a box of issues.

That is what I understood when you said cut off.

cut off not cut down. Remove from their presence. Could I, (were I an apostate from Islam) be welcome back to have dinner with my Islamic family?

I agree on that this is not Christianity vs Islam thread, but I answered with that because you said "Christianity has no negative associations other than going to hell which is only in the afterlife"
I just wanted to clear things up

In that case I concede the point from the biblical persective.

This depends on the individuals themselves. I can't answer that. Some would welcome you and some won't.

 

[LuisDantas]

Let's face it, America is a Christian nation. And many American troops are very religious Christians.

And ISIS has been committing genocide against religious minorities, Christians being one of them. Although the powers that be aren't doing this in the name of Christianity, the American public that supports it is.

My argument exactly. If Christianity has better understanding of ethics for being six centuries older than Islam, it is going out of its way to attempt to disguise that.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is a useful perspective. Why can't we blame backwardness? All religions are guilty. I think that the RC church should be demonized for making aid conditional on not using condoms - it's inhuman. It's backwards.

You know...I am one of the greatest critic of the RCC: and I am a Catholic.
Of course there are still lots of things which are backwards in the RCC.
Freedom of thought is a sacred concept. The acceleration of Catholic enlightenment is surprisingly fast: lets not forget that Pope Francis said that even Atheists will go to Heaven. Pope Francis said that he's nobody to judge gay people.

Of course all Christians are making their religion better and better. Because we are given freedom of thought. Freedom of criticizing backwards things without any fear.
I always tell my Pelagian ideas about God and Jesus. I said to my priest that I believe that man's will is superior to God's will. I've never received any threats, though.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..America is a Christian nation. And many American troops are very religious Christians..

Yay..

"Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..
they come from faraway lands..to destroy the whole country..and destroy the sinners within it" (Isaiah ch 13)

A service after capturing Baghdad Intnl Airport, 2003-

"The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings palaces"- Proverbs 30:28 KJV
US troops near one of Saddam Hussein's abandoned palaces in Bayji,Iraq 2008-

 

[England my lionheart]

This is a useful perspective. Why can't we blame backwardness? All religions are guilty. I think that the RC church should be demonized for making aid conditional on not using condoms - it's inhuman. It's backwards.

I agree,it makes shocking reading,the reality is even worse IMO

 

[Poeticus]

I empathize with you on the evil violence that has happened to your people and others. My argument is not to defend those evils but to appreciate that evil done in the name of a religion does not define the religion. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people. To judge an entire religion based on action of a few is wrong.

To judge a majority of people is misleading, yes, but not to judge a religion (more specifically, particular strains of a specific religion) from extensive research through the utilization of a plethora of sources, no. Criticism of religion has considerable merit due to the philosophical notions and epistemic and ontological realities that arouse from the [Western] construct of religio. A religion is often defined by its practitioners, since intrinsically it is man-derived---and thus manmade. Religion (in the religio sense) is not an entity that is of a supra-natural order; in fact, it's very much a tangible reality.

If I were to, say, judge the contents of a book and deem it unworthy---why should I not involve the author who birthed the novella? The content is poor because the writing is not efficient enough, or, say, the construction of sentences and the movement of the plot and of the characters therein isn't developed sufficiently---from this it would be of considerable merit to also critique the author (the author being the storehouse of ideas, the books being the products). In contrast to the above example, and apart from the fact that "To judge an entire religion based on action of a few is wrong" is a logical fallacy, why should I not critique the religion or a particular strain of ideology of that religion when its practitioners give that religion a voice?

 

[Tabb]

Not all of them. And quite frankly, we all are that much better for it.

I don't think it is even possible to get all the Abrahamic religions to agree on what God wants, anyway.

I disagree. They all have a lot in common. They all started off believing in the same God. They all agree that he is responsible for creation and even more. They start to differ when their cultures get involved. As an Omnist I think that all religions have commonalities that I find to be whats important. All of them have these Major Bibles that are great works of literature that when you boil all of it down it only says, there is a superior being, show your respect for him by worship, and to behave yourself. Everything after that has cultural nuances.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Let's face it, America is a Christian nation. And many American troops are very religious Christians.

Nope :no:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"~ Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (signed by president John Adams)