Your position about Islam

[Shuttlecraft]

..I don't think it is even possible to get all the Abrahamic religions to agree on what God wants, anyway.

Dunno bout the rest, but Christianity is pretty clear..
Jesus said-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor" (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)


And all the words Jesus spoke came direct from God himself!
Jesus said -
"For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49)

 

[MD]

Nope :no:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"~ Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (signed by president John Adams)

It may not be on constitution, but the majority of its people are. And it's not only the Bible belt.

Hispanics are very Christian. As are African Americans. Most Republicans are as well. A growing number of Asian Americans are Christians as well as South Asians due to conversion.

I'm not saying it as a good thing, but an American war against ISIS legitimizes its identity as an army for Islam vs a Christian USA. The armed forces especially, have you heard the Naval Hymn?

 

[Estro Felino]

I disagree. They all have a lot in common. They all started off believing in the same God. They all agree that he is responsible for creation and even more. They start to differ when their cultures get involved. As an Omnist I think that all religions have commonalities that I find to be whats important. All of them have these Major Bibles that are great works of literature that when you boil all of it down it only says, there is a superior being, show your respect for him by worship, and to behave yourself. Everything after that has cultural nuances.

well...Christianity is based upon several precise concepts:
- Homicide is always wrong and God will never justify it.
- It is better to be a victim than a perpetrator. So it is better to be killed than to kill
- Freedom of thought is sacred. Nobody has the right to interfere with other people's freewill
- You have to love your enemies and your neighbor as much as yourself
- Man and woman are equal in the eyes of God
- Man has freewill. Not even God can violate it.

and let's not forget that Jesus never killed anyone.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

It may not be on constitution, but the majority of its people are. And it's not only the Bible belt.

Hispanics are very Christian. As are African Americans. Most Republicans are as well. A growing number of Asian Americans are Christians as well as South Asians due to conversion.

I'm not saying it as a good thing, but an American war against ISIS legitimizes its identity as an army for Islam vs a Christian USA.

It is a bit of a semantic argument, but I'd say that we are a "nation of Christians" rather than a "Christian nation." We have a Christian majority, no doubt, but it is not a religion officially espoused by the state itself.

 

[MD]

It is a bit of a semantic argument, but I'd say that we are a "nation of Christians" rather than a "Christian nation." We have a Christian majority, no doubt, but it is not a religion officially espoused by the state itself.

But half the politicians think like Christian theocrats and the vast majority of the country is Christian.

Christians have much higher birth rates than non Christians. Their voice will only get stronger in the future.

The armed forces hymns are all choir songs. It's a Christian country, more or less and will eventually become a semi theocracy imo. Even many atheists are cultural Christians, if tomorrow an invading non Christian army came and destroyed Christian symbols many American secularists would identify with their religious culture and history.

This is the hymn of the American Navy, a branch of the armed forces. It has strong Christian undertones to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KCiMdR1ox0

 

[outhouse]

I'm not saying it as a good thing, but an American war against ISIS legitimizes its identity as an army for Islam vs a Christian USA. The armed forces especially, have you heard the Naval Hymn?

While that is in a sense correct, it is out of context IMHO

This is a political war of the USA fighting religious barbarian terrorist.


You are correct and pretty accurate in your description of the religious USA, but it is not Christians VS islam

 

[outhouse]

But half the politicians think like Christian theocrats and the vast majority of the country is Christian.

Despite politics playing heavy on religious affiliation, our decisions are secular and monetary based decisions.

 

[MD]

While that is in a sense correct, it is out of context IMHO

This is a political war of the USA fighting religious barbarian terrorist.


You are correct and pretty accurate in your description of the religious USA, but it is not Christians VS islam

It's not, but to many people in the Islamic world it looks that way. That's why ISIS is beheading all these people, they want to draw in ground troops.

Ever since the bombing 10,000 people joined ISIS. Al Nusra and ISIS are allies now. An invasion would bring tens, if not hundreds of thousands of recruits to the jihadists.

And there are many politicians and people in USA who want to see it that way too. Fox news started calling for a holy war last month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOg6SJsQ1B0, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NELk7xCkRI

The fanaticism is there in USA too.

 

[Sabour]

I'll just say its not for me because even the Qur'an on its own is hard for me to like reading but the amount of reading to take in the myriad of sunni shia qur'anist Ahmadi Bai hai views of Islam tells me that it was authored by a human,obviously that's just my opinion.

Thanks for your input.

I didn't seem to understand how you came up with your conclusion. I didnt understand the link

 

[Sabour]

I've heard this talk before - it's a fine talk.

But to me it misses the point. We can summarize Lesley Hazleton's talk down to a few points:

1 - Spoken out loud, the Quran sounds poetic and musical.
2 - The Quran often paints beautiful visual pictures in our minds.

I'm more than happy to grant you those points, I've heard parts of the Quran chanted or sung, and it can indeed be quite mesmerizing.

So if you were to claim that it's a beautiful piece of written art, I would not argue.

But the problem is not how pretty it sounds musically. The problem is that - regardless of what moderate Muslims claim - for 1400 years, generation after generation of Muslims read this book and take away violent and intolerant messages. The book has a tendency to convey bad ideas.

What you are actually addressing is exactly why I shared this video. Your point 1 and 2, although true, were not my purpose of sharing the video.

I advise hearing it again it to give it more attention

 

[Sabour]

I feel your pain. I've been labeled a closet Muslim because I refuse to look at things from a Christian American point of view. I'm just trying to be fair in understanding Islam's influence on events. The refusal of some to put religion, politics, and culture in prospective is astounding.

My religious position is to respect all religions based on the honorable fact that they all exist to acknowledge and praise a higher power, God.

Thanks a lot for your input.

I admire most of your posts and I hope we have more people like you around.

 

[LuisDantas]

I disagree. They all have a lot in common. They all started off believing in the same God.

Stated that way, that sounds quite a bit more meaningful than it actually is.

In practice, they do not even agree on that, and when they do it means basically nothing - to the point that it is not at all an exageration to say that they have a historical tendency to settle differences of interpretation of God's will by choosing who among them shall survive.

If anything, the claim of a shared God is a serious flaw disguised as a feature.

They all agree that he is responsible for creation and even more. They start to differ when their cultures get involved. As an Omnist I think that all religions have commonalities that I find to be whats important. All of them have these Major Bibles that are great works of literature that when you boil all of it down it only says, there is a superior being, show your respect for him by worship, and to behave yourself. Everything after that has cultural nuances.

Oh boy, you sure have a lot more admiration from the concept of God than I ever will.

As it turns out, neither of the four Abrahamic religions can much sustain themselves without cultural nuances - and they all end up being far less complete than their competition exactly because they make such a point of referring to God as opposed to actual religious matters.

 

[Sabour]

And I have stated repeatedly that the point or "correct" interpretation itself doesn't even matter. The fact that it can so easily be used to incite violence was a concern I have.

That is only natural. Many people see things in their bias and tend to use it as an excuse.

I don't agree. I think that women should be treated as a man should and I have known some cold unfeeling women and I have met men who were a box of issues.

I would say these are special cases .

cut off not cut down. Remove from their presence. Could I, (were I an apostate from Islam) be welcome back to have dinner with my Islamic family?

Again, that is relative to the family.


But I think if that is a concern for you from now, than in my opinion and ONLY in my opinion, I think you are thinking in the wrong direction. If in case anyone is asking such a question I would tell him don't think with your emotions and don't let fear drive you. I would tell him get the facts and know more about it. For if it is proven true, there won't be a reason to be a apostate.

That is of course if he were interested

 

[MD]

I disagree. They all have a lot in common. They all started off believing in the same God. They all agree that he is responsible for creation and even more. They start to differ when their cultures get involved. As an Omnist I think that all religions have commonalities that I find to be whats important. All of them have these Major Bibles that are great works of literature that when you boil all of it down it only says, there is a superior being, show your respect for him by worship, and to behave yourself. Everything after that has cultural nuances.

You are being dishonest here, Islam specifically says that all disbelievers will go to hell. ALL. How dare you attempt to defend this faith which says such things? I will put down all the disgusting quotes in the book which EXPLICITLY states how disbelievers will burn. For liberals like you to defend such a faith is ridiculous and borders on stupidity.

Disbelievers Will Go to Hell - My Religion Islam

The fact that all non-Muslims (kuffar; sing. kafir) will remain in Hell (Jahannam) eternally is not our own personal opinion, but the categorical command of Allah, Most High. It is firmly established by the Qur’an and Sunnah. There are more than a hundred Qur’anic verses that inform us of this fact:

(Certainly, all disbelievers, be they from among the Ahl-i Kitab [Jews and Christians] or from among polytheists, will be in the fire of Hell. They will abide therein eternally. They are the worst of creatures.) [Al-Bayyinah 6]

(Beware of the Fire prepared for disbelievers.) [Al-i 'Imran 131]

(Whoever rebels against Allah and His Messenger and oversteps His bounds [rules of religion], Allah will make him enter a Fire, where he will abide forever.) [An-Nisa' 14]

(Whoever opposes the Messenger and follows a path other than that of the Believers, We will leave him in that path and make him enter Hell. What a bad place it is!) [An-Nisa' 115]

(Allah never forgives rejecters and the unjust. He guides them to the path of Hell, where they will abide forever. And this is easy for Allah.) [An-Nisa' 168, 169]

(Those who say, "Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam" have become disbelievers. Allah forbids Paradise for him who ascribes partners to Him. His abode is the Fire, and there are no helpers for the unjust.) [Al-Ma'idah 72]

([Allah] said to [Shaitan]: Exit from there as being disgraced and expelled from mercy! Get out! Verily, I will put those who follow you and all of you into Hell.) [Al-A'raf 18]

(The end of disbelievers is the Fire.) [Ar-Ra'd 35]

(Enter Hell, where you will abide eternally. How bad is the abode of the arrogant!) [An-Nahl 29]

(We made Hell a dungeon for disbelievers.) [Al-Isra' 8]

(Those whose scales are light and thus have become losers will abide in Hell eternally.) [Al-Mu'minun 102, 103]

(We prepared a blazing Fire for those disbelievers who do not believe in Allah and His Messenger.) [Al-Fath 13]

(O Prophet, carry out jihad against disbelievers [with arms] and hypocrites [with advice, proof, documents]. Be stern against them [if advice does not prove useful, either]. What a bad abode Hell is, where they will go!) [At-Tawbah 73, At-Tahrim 9]

(Hell is the place that waits for taghut [disbelievers].) [An-Naba' 21, 22]

(Fajirs [disbelievers] are in Hell.) [Al-Infitar 14]

(For disbelievers is the Fire of Hell. They will not be killed, so that they should die [thus being saved]. Nor will the torment of Hell be lightened. It is in this way that We punish him who goes too far in his disbelief.) [Fatir 36]

It is not sufficient to believe in the Creator
Question: Will all non-Muslims, be they believe in a god or not, go to Hell? Are there any Qur’anic verses concerning this matter?
ANSWER
Yes, all non-Muslims will enter Hell. There are many Qur’anic verses on this matter:

(Beware of the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is humans and stones.) [Al-Baqarah 24]

(Those disbelievers who deny Our aayaat are the people of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.) [Al-Baqarah 39]

(Those whose wrongdoings [sins] have encompassed them are the people of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.) [Al-Baqarah 81]

(I give sustenance to the rejecter [disbeliever] a little while. Then I will subject him to the torment of Hell. What a bad place it is!) [Al-Baqarah 126]

(Hell is sufficient for him who is seized by more pride because of his sins when he is said, "Fear Allah." What an evil bed it is!) [Al-Baqarah 206]

(The friends of rejecters [disbelievers] are taghut. They take them out of the light into darkness. Such are the people of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.) [Al-Baqarah 257]

(Those who practice usury again [by regarding it as lawful] are the people of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.) [Al-Baqarah 275]

(Neither the wealth nor the children of rejecters [disbelievers] will avail them in the sight of Allah [they cannot save them from punishment]. They are the fuel of Hell.) [Al-i 'Imran 10]

(Say to the rejecters: "You will be vanquished and driven to Hell. What an evil place it is!") [Al-i 'Imran 12]

(We will cast terror into the hearts of disbelievers because they ascribe to Allah partners for which He has not sent down any proof. Their destination is Hell. How bad is the destination of the unjust!) [Al-i 'Imran 151]

(Let it not deceive you [your Ummah] that the rejecters travel and knock around the countries [in clover]. It is but a small [ephemeral] advantage. Their destination is Hell. What a bad place!) [Al-i 'Imran 196, 197]

(We will soon [certainly] make those who reject Our aayaat and thus become disbelievers enter the Fire.) [An-Nisa' 56]

(Whoever kills a Believer intentionally [for the reason that he is a Believer], his punishment will be Hell, where he will abide eternally. Allah is angry with him, has cursed him, and has prepared for him a great torment.) [An-Nisa' 93]

(Their [those who take Shaitan for their friend in preference to Allah] abode is Hell. They will find no refuge from it.) [An-Nisa' 121]

(Those who disbelieve and deny Our aayaat are the people of Hell.) [Al-Ma'idah 86]

(Those who deny Our aayaat and put on airs are the people of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.) [Al-A'raf 36]

(Verily, We have created many genies and humans for Hell. They have hearts, but they do not understand. They have eyes, but they do not see. They have ears, but they do not hear. They are like animals, even worse than they.) [Al-A'raf 179]

(Those who persist in disbelief will be gathered into Hell.) [Al-Anfal 36]

(Polytheists do not have the authority to maintain Allah's mosques. All their deeds [that they like] will come to nothing; they will remain in the Fire eternally.) [At-Tawbah 17]

(Hell will certainly encompass disbelievers.) [At-Tawbah 49]

(Do they not understand this fact that there is certainly Hellfire to abide therein eternally for him who opposes Allah and His Messenger?) [At-Tawbah 63]

(Allah has prepared for hypocrites, both men and women, and disbelievers the Hellfire, where they will abide eternally. That Fire is sufficient for them. Allah has cursed them. There is a never-ending torment for them.) [At-Tawbah 68]

(Neither the Prophet nor the Believers can plead for the forgiveness of the polytheists, even if they are their relatives, after it has become clear that they are the people of Hell.) [At-Tawbah 113]

(The shaqis [those who are subjected to torment] are in the Fire, groaning and breathing terribly.) [Hud 106]

(If you are to be surprised [at anything], then you should be surprised at their saying, "After we have become dust, will we be created anew?" Such are those who disbelieve in their Lord and will be fettered with iron collars around their necks. They are the people of Hell, and they will abide therein eternally.) [Ar-Ra'd 5]

(Curse be upon those who break their pledge with Allah after taking a solemn pledge, who sever the ties that Allah has commanded to be kept [who sever the ties of kinship], and who make mischief in the earth. For them is the evil abode [Hell].) [Ar-Ra'd 25]

(Those [polytheists] who are ungrateful to Allah's blessing and have led their people to the Abode of Ruin [Hell] will enter there. How evil place it is to settle in!) [Ibrahim 28, 29]

(We will assemble them [disbelievers] on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf. Their destination and abode is Hell.) [Al-Isra' 97]

(We have prepared Hell for disbelievers as a dwelling place.) [Al-Kahf 102]

(You and what you worship other than Allah [idols] will be fuel for Hell.) [Al-Anbiya' 98]

(Those who debate to distort Our aayaat and who make mischief are the people of Hell.) [Al-Hajj 51]

(Hell will encompass the disbelievers who ask you to hasten the coming of the torment.) [Al-Ankabut 54]

(Allah has cursed disbelievers and prepared for them a blazing Fire.) [Al-Ahzab 64]

(Disbelievers will be driven to Hell in groups. The keepers there will say, "Did messengers not come to you, who conveyed your Lord's aayaat and who warned you that you would meet this Day." They say, "Yes, they did." But the promise of torment [the promise that I will fill Hell with disbelieving genies and human beings] has been fulfilled upon disbelievers.) [Az-Zumar 71]

(Deviators [disbelievers] have become firewood for Hell.) [Al-Jinn 15]

(We have prepared for disbelievers chains, iron collars, and a flaming Fire.) [Al-Insan 4]

 

[MD]

That's a 100 effing quotes which basically say all non muslims, irregardless of their goodness in their nature will go to hell for eternity to be tortured.

If that's not EFFED UP, I don't know what is. And this is a religion of peace?

 

[outhouse]

And this is a religion of peace?

Does not matter what the book says.

It is a cop out for peoples poor behavior, a excuse more then anything from muslims

They want to ignore, they are trained to ignore anything negative.


And sticking their heads in the sand is only making problems worse

 

[Sabour]

You are being dishonest here, Islam specifically says that all disbelievers will go to hell. ALL.

This was a point already addressed in the thread. Let me clarify.

Originally Posted by LuisDantas
I thought they were atheists and followers of religions other than Islam?
That is one thing that muslim scholars don't talk illustrate enough.

There are two types of non muslims.

Those who, although have put an effort to know the truth, were not convinced by Islam because of misrepresentation of facts or because they were beyong reach.

And those who know the truth about Islam and don't follow because of their pride. Or they even don't care about God at all and are not seeking the truth.

The mentioned verses talk about the first group


As for the second group, these people won't be judged by hell because simply it wasn't because of their own hands. But rather they will be tested on the day of Judgement and judged accordingly.

One thing is for sure is that no one would question the justice of Allah even know the intentions of people.

Thank you, those verses sound agreeable. One question I have though, is this: Whenever I decide to go to quranexplorer.com to listen to the Qur'an being recited (sometimes the mood strikes me, and I find the chanting to be very relaxing), I always come to the beginning passages from Surah al-Baqarah, and the two ones that make me raise my eyebrows go like this:

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
Let me get into some explanation here.

The Arabic word used to describe a non believer is كافر

This word is used to describe someone who is covering the truth. One of the biggest reasons for doing so is the negative pride and refusal to hear. So for these people it won't matter if you show them evidences or talk to them or anything because they will choose not to listen.

Allah makes it clear through the Quraan in the other verses that this is because of their own hands and not because Allah is not being good with them. This is shown in other verses in the Quraan, and here is an example.



16:33

Do the disbelievers await [anything] except that the angels should come to them or there comes the command of your Lord? Thus did those do before them. And Allah wronged them not, but they had been wronging themselves.


I suggest you read this verse in different translations so that the meaning would be clear because I think instead if using the word "Wronged" another word may have given a clearer meaning, in Arabic, the verse is trying to say that Allah wasn't unjust with them, but they were the ones who were unjust to themselves.

I wish you read the whole reply here

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3965297-post524.html

 

[MD]

This was a point already addressed in the thread. Let me clarify.







I wish you read the whole reply here

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3965297-post524.html

What about good polytheists?

Does the concept of Hell not disturb you as a human being? Could you roast someone alive for eternity as a person? You seem like too good of a person to ever wish that. Doesn't the idea that a God does that seem evil to you?

 

[Sabour]

What about good polytheists?

Does the concept of Hell not disturb you as a human being? Could you roast someone alive for eternity as a person? You seem like too good of a person to ever wish that. Doesn't the idea that a God does that seem evil to you?

The Greatest right someone has from us is the right towards God.

I know nothing and I know that God is just to everyone and no one would ever be misjudged not even of the size of an atom. Everyone will get the rewards for his good and the punishments for his bad.

God would judge each one according to what opportunities and what intentions that person had.

 

[Tabb]

Stated that way, that sounds quite a bit more meaningful than it actually is.

In practice, they do not even agree on that, and when they do it means basically nothing - to the point that it is not at all an exageration to say that they have a historical tendency to settle differences of interpretation of God's will by choosing who among them shall survive.

If anything, the claim of a shared God is a serious flaw disguised as a feature.




Oh boy, you sure have a lot more admiration from the concept of God than I ever will.

As it turns out, neither of the four Abrahamic religions can much sustain themselves without cultural nuances - and they all end up being far less complete than their competition exactly because they make such a point of referring to God as opposed to actual religious matters.

Because people believe in God don't mean they can't be idiots. Yeshua came to the world preaching peace and to turn the other cheek. His followers show their appreciation of his teachings by committing some of the most horrific acts committed by man. Men will do what Man does regardless of faith. My point is that because the followers fall short don't mean you should throw out the Faith.
I didn't know there were 4 Abrahamic religions.