Your position about Islam

[LuisDantas]

Because people believe in God don't mean they can't be idiots.

Indeed. In fact, it means very little at all. It is not even broadly indicative of their values or even beliefs.

Which is one of the main reasons why it is a stretch to say that even monotheistic religions share such a concept. Even Abrahamic religions suffer a lot attempting to lend that nominal agreement any actual meaning.

Mostly, it is a statement of a desire to have a common core concept. One that usually falls short in practice, far as actual goals or beliefs go.

Yeshua came to the world preaching peace and to turn the other cheek. His followers show their appreciation of his teachings by committing some of the most horrific acts committed by man. Men will do what Man does regardless of faith. My point is that because the followers fall short don't mean you should throw out the Faith.

What good is a system that would need people that do not actually exist in order to truly work?

I didn't know there were 4 Abrahamic religions.

There is the Bahai Faith as well. Actually, there may well be thousands depending on how exactly you differentiate among religions. Or even just one if you decide that despite everything Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahais should be considered as sharing a central important belief (which I advise against).

Even then, Abrahamic faiths are hardly representative of religion in general, although I do acknowledge that much of their appeal is the idea that somehow they should substitute all others. An idea that I definitely do not support.

 

[outhouse]

Yeshua came to the world preaching peace and to turn the other cheek. .

That probably was not from jesus, at arrest there may have been a sword, and his actions in the temple were violent.


That was from the authors of the NT trying to make sure their Roman brothers they were teaching too, did not view them as rebels like the Jews were viewed.

The movements mythology has quite a bit of rhetoric tied to the fact these Hellenistic authors were divorcing Judaism.

 

[Sabour]

As for Gary Miller, here are somethings about him

Speaking out before coming to Islam talking about Christianity and Islam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPR48pP8Tbk


Here is some of what he wrote after coming to Islam

Dr. Gary Miller


Here is a PDF file to his book the Amazing Quran
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single/en_The_Amazing_Quran.pdf

 

[sun rise]

Some of those arguing here do not have accurate facts upon which to base their points. For example, slavery in the world especially in Europe is discussed here HISTORY OF SLAVERY

 

[Sabour]

Slavery In Islam

​

The first thing we must know that Islam didn’t create slavery. Slavery was already there. But why Islam didn’t stop slavery? Or did it?


Why slavery in such time? There are many reasons


1-* Both*financial and*social security. * When their country or tribe lost the war, they also lost most or all of their money as war booty.* Being out of money and food, it becomes necessary for an individual to find the means for basic survival in life.* Living as a slave would provide this.

2-* Protection from hostile individuals. * Even under the Islamic rule, you can still find hostile individuals who violate the Law and take matters into their own hands.* An enemy family can be sometime in danger if they don't have a "protector".


3-* Widows, Orphans, and the extremely poor*of the*enemy side need the financial and social protection from a Master.* Back then, there were no governments with good social system that protects everyone.* Slavery back then was that social system in special cases.
There are probably more points I can add, but I think these are sufficient enough


First of all let us look at a scenario where stopping slavery was done. It was done by Abraham Linclon. But did that solve the problem? I don’t think because there was still hate between both sides. Liclon didn’t deal with the problem; he dealt with the result of the problem. But I am not discrediting what he did at all.

The problem I was referring to was racism which resulted in slavery. What is he Islamic stand of racism?


First thing I want to say about the subject is that racism was the first sin committed when satan refused to bow to Adam ( or in front of him)when Allah ordered him to. It wasn’t the story of Eve telling Adam to eat from the tree.

Second, 49:13 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.


Also The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), during his Last Sermon in Minâ, said: “O people! Your Lord is one Lord, and you all share the same father. There is no preference for Arabs over non-Arabs, nor for non-Arabs over Arabs. Neither is their preference forwhite people*over*black people, nor for black people over white people. Preference is only through righteousness.” Then he said: “Have I conveyed the message?” and the people declared that he had. [Musnad Ahmad*(22391)]

These hadith and verses are dealing with the problem, which is being racist.

Now let us look to how Islam dealt with the slavery problem.

First, considering the treatment they were receiving, how did Islam approach this subject?


4:36 Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful.

76:5-9

5 Indeed, the righteous will drink from a cup [of wine] whose mixture is of Kafur, 6 A spring of which the [righteous] servants of Allah will drink; they will make it gush forth in force [and abundance].7 They [are those who] fulfill [their] vows and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread.8And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive,9[Saying], "We feed you only for the countenance of Allah . We wish not from you reward or gratitude.


Islam brought about a transformation in the situation. It taught that the slave was the brother of the master and that he had rights as well. The prophet commanded: “They are your brothers and relatives! Let each one provide for the brother under him with the food that he himself eats and with the clothes that he himself wears. Place not upon them any task that is overbearing for them. If you do assign them a difficult task, you must help them in its execution.” (Bukhari, Muslim)

Al-Bukhari reported that Abu Dharr and Bilal, the Abyssinian, both of whom were among the earliest Muslims, once quarreled and insulted each other. Carried away by his anger, Abu Dharr said to Bilal, "You son of a black woman!" Bilal complained about this to the Prophet (peace be on him), who turned to Abu Dharr, saying,*"Are you taunting him about his mother? There is still some influence of*jahiliyyah*in you!''*(Reported by al-Bukhari.)
(jahiliyyah means days of ignorance the arabs used to live)
Abu Dharr narrated that the Prophet (peace be on him) said to him,*"Look! You are no better than a white or black man unless you excel in the fear of Allah."


"Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:*He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or*slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.***(Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4079)"
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:*"When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke,he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share)*- (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. **(Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Second, Islam provided means and encouraged freeing slaves


9:60 Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

There are numerous sayings of the prophet which encourage the freeing of slaves. “If anyone sets free a believing slave, each of his body parts will be set free from Hell so much so that it will be the hand for a hand, the leg for a right up to the sexual organ for the sexual organ.” (Bukhari, Muslim)

In addition, setting a captive free was something muslims must do in some cases

4:92And never is it for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake - then the freeing of a believing slave and a compensation payment presented to the deceased's family [is required] unless they give [up their right as] charity. But if the deceased was from a people at war with you and he was a believer - then [only] the freeing of a believing slave; and if he was from a people with whom you have a treaty - then a compensation payment presented to his family and the freeing of a believing slave. And whoever does not find [one or cannot afford to buy one] - then [instead], a fast for two months consecutively, [seeking] acceptance of repentance from Allah . And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.


58:3 And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then [wish to] go back on what they said - then [there must be] the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

5:89 Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful.


90: 10-13

10 And have shown him the two ways? 11 But he has not broken through the difficult pass.12 And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass? 13 It is the freeing of a slave 14 Or feeding on a day of severe hunger 15An orphan of near relationship 16 Or a needy person in misery

So let us get the whole picture now.

Islam approach is first to direct people how they must treat their slaves. It is as if they were brothers. So there will be no harsh feeling towards each other. Second, Islam has made it clear that setting a slave free is among the good deeds and sometimes a must do. So muslims were basically going to slave markets and buying slaves so that they would set them free. Instant buying, and instant freeing. Fourth, Islam only took war captives when the enemy is taking war captives only.

So Islam dealt with the problem slowly and wisely. Besides, has Islam set the slaves free all at once it would have not been fair to the masters. At that time, slaves was an assets. It was normal. In addition, freeing them after such a horrible treatment was in place wouldn't be a good decision to take.

 

[MD]

Some of those arguing here do not have accurate facts upon which to base their points. For example, slavery in the world especially in Europe is discussed here HISTORY OF SLAVERY

You're constant defense of Islam's more negative side is getting tiresome, even for a liberal. Slavery was practiced for 10 centuries by the Arabs vs 4 centuries by the Europeans. Zoroastrians were also slaves.

 

[sojourner]

Your position about Islam

These days, "Missionary" is fine for me...

 

[Shad]

1-* Both*financial and*social security. * When their country or tribe lost the war, they also lost most or all of their money as war booty.* Being out of money and food, it becomes necessary for an individual to find the means for basic survival in life.* Living as a slave would provide this.

Simply make looting illegal like most nations have done. Although this will not prevent all cases it will have an effect. If victors are looting, Muslim Armies, they are placing the hardship upon the people. The same people they "help" by becoming masters.

2-* Protection from hostile individuals. * Even under the Islamic rule, you can still find hostile individuals who violate the Law and take matters into their own hands.* An enemy family can be sometime in danger if they don't have a "protector".

Law enforcement and government functions as supposed protection their citizens and asylum seekers. Why does someone need to become a slave to gain protection of the State?

3-* Widows, Orphans, and the extremely poor*of the*enemy side need the financial and social protection from a Master.* Back then, there were no governments with good social system that protects everyone.* Slavery back then was that social system in special cases.
There are probably more points I can add, but I think these are sufficient enough

Welfare systems, charity, housing programs and adoption. Why does one need to become a slave in order to eat. If a master has work a slave can do why can not this master just hire the person and pay them? If the master has no work for a slave but supports a slave anyways why can not this be done as charity rather than a form of slavery?

First of all let us look at a scenario where stopping slavery was done. It was done by Abraham Linclon. But did that solve the problem? I don’t think because there was still hate between both sides. Liclon didn’t deal with the problem; he dealt with the result of the problem. But I am not discrediting what he did at all.

False. This is only in America. In other nations it was outlawed by the government without a civil war. The solution did not address every issue but it certainly was an improvement of the statue quo

The problem I was referring to was racism which resulted in slavery. What is he Islamic stand of racism?

Not racism but religious special privilege. A born Muslim can not become a slave yet non-Muslims can. A convert is not freed upon conversion. This shows that religious hierarchy of birth is more important than choices made later in life. A newborn Muslim is special due to having Muslim parents while someone converting as a choice is not treated so.

First, considering the treatment they were receiving, how did Islam approach this subject?

Islam brought about a transformation in the situation. It taught that the slave was the brother of the master and that he had rights as well. The prophet commanded: “They are your brothers and relatives! Let each one provide for the brother under him with the food that he himself eats and with the clothes that he himself wears. Place not upon them any task that is overbearing for them. If you do assign them a difficult task, you must help them in its execution.” (Bukhari, Muslim)

Good treatment does not justify slavery. Good treatment is obvious if you have slaves in one's household.

Second, Islam provided means and encouraged freeing slaves


9:60 Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

There are numerous sayings of the prophet which encourage the freeing of slaves. “If anyone sets free a believing slave, each of his body parts will be set free from Hell so much so that it will be the hand for a hand, the leg for a right up to the sexual organ for the sexual organ.” (Bukhari, Muslim)

Good treatment still does not justify slavery.

In addition, setting a captive free was something muslims must do in some cases

4:92And never is it for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake - then the freeing of a believing slave and a compensation payment presented to the deceased's family [is required] unless they give [up their right as] charity. But if the deceased was from a people at war with you and he was a believer - then [only] the freeing of a believing slave; and if he was from a people with whom you have a treaty - then a compensation payment presented to his family and the freeing of a believing slave. And whoever does not find [one or cannot afford to buy one] - then [instead], a fast for two months consecutively, [seeking] acceptance of repentance from Allah . And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

So a slave is freed due to a crime of the master. This is punishment for the master not a reward for the slave. Why is the slave a believer rather then any slave? The benefit for the slave is secondary to the punishment of the master

58:3 And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then [wish to] go back on what they said - then [there must be] the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

Another punishment for the master not a reward for the slave. The benefit for the slave is secondary to the punishment of the master

5:89 Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful.

Again another punishment for a master not a reward for the slave. The benefit for the slave is secondary to the punishment of the master


Islam approach is first to direct people how they must treat their slaves. It is as if they were brothers. So there will be no harsh feeling towards each other. Second, Islam has made it clear that setting a slave free is among the good deeds and sometimes a must do. So muslims were basically going to slave markets and buying slaves so that they would set them free. Instant buying, and instant freeing. Fourth, Islam only took war captives when the enemy is taking war captives only.

So Islam dealt with the problem slowly and wisely. Besides, has Islam set the slaves free all at once it would have not been fair to the masters. At that time, slaves was an assets. It was normal. In addition, freeing them after such a horrible treatment was in place wouldn't be a good decision to take.[/quote]

Islam if so great could of implemented a system which made slavery illegal. Yet such systems were implemented first in Non-Muslim nations. It reformed the statue quo but did not stop it. None of which is justification for slavery and the required steps other nations needed to take for Muslim nations to make it illegal in the age of Global cultures.

Also put in a link to the site you copy/paste from.

 

[Tabb]

That probably was not from jesus, at arrest there may have been a sword, and his actions in the temple were violent.


That was from the authors of the NT trying to make sure their Roman brothers they were teaching too, did not view them as rebels like the Jews were viewed.

The movements mythology has quite a bit of rhetoric tied to the fact these Hellenistic authors were divorcing Judaism.

I've heard that before that Jesus was tired of peaceful means and was considering turning to the sword. His action at the temple was the start of that change of heart.

it is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a political dissident. Which is easy to be in a non secular country. No doubt his action at the temple caused him to be hoisted with his own petard. he messed with the money.

 

[Sabour]

You're constant defense of Islam's more negative side is getting tiresome, even for a liberal. Slavery was practiced for 10 centuries by the Arabs vs 4 centuries by the Europeans. Zoroastrians were also slaves.

On a side not, slavery was in the Arab world before Islam came.

See my other post to know how Islam dealt with slavery

 

[MD]

On a side not, slavery was in the Arab world before Islam came.

See my other post to know how Islam dealt with slavery

It wasn't, but Islam didn't change the fact that slaves were trafficked in huge numbers. In fact it grew.

 

[sojourner]

I've heard that before that Jesus was tired of peaceful means and was considering turning to the sword. His action at the temple was the start of that change of heart.

it is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a political dissident. Which is easy to be in a non secular country. No doubt his action at the temple caused him to be hoisted with his own petard. he messed with the money.

The source of many of Jesus' quotes is believed to be Galilean, which was notoriously dissident in its political views. As to whether Jesus was particularly dissident cannot be determined simply by noting that source.

 

[Sabour]

Simply make looting illegal like most nations have done. Although this will not prevent all cases it will have an effect. If victors are looting, Muslim Armies, they are placing the hardship upon the people. The same people they "help" by becoming masters.

Law enforcement and government functions as supposed protection their citizens and asylum seekers. Why does someone need to become a slave to gain protection of the State?


Welfare systems, charity, housing programs and adoption. Why does one need to become a slave in order to eat. If a master has work a slave can do why can not this master just hire the person and pay them? If the master has no work for a slave but supports a slave anyways why can not this be done as charity rather than a form of slavery?


False. This is only in America. In other nations it was outlawed by the government without a civil war. The solution did not address every issue but it certainly was an improvement of the statue quo

Not racism but religious special privilege. A born Muslim can not become a slave yet non-Muslims can. A convert is not freed upon conversion. This shows that religious hierarchy of birth is more important than choices made later in life. A newborn Muslim is special due to having Muslim parents while someone converting as a choice is not treated so.

First, considering the treatment they were receiving, how did Islam approach this subject?

Good treatment does not justify slavery. Good treatment is obvious if you have slaves in one's household.


Good treatment still does not justify slavery.

So a slave is freed due to a crime of the master. This is punishment for the master not a reward for the slave. Why is the slave a believer rather then any slave? The benefit for the slave is secondary to the punishment of the master


Another punishment for the master not a reward for the slave. The benefit for the slave is secondary to the punishment of the master

Again another punishment for a master not a reward for the slave. The benefit for the slave is secondary to the punishment of the master


Islam approach is first to direct people how they must treat their slaves. It is as if they were brothers. So there will be no harsh feeling towards each other. Second, Islam has made it clear that setting a slave free is among the good deeds and sometimes a must do. So muslims were basically going to slave markets and buying slaves so that they would set them free. Instant buying, and instant freeing. Fourth, Islam only took war captives when the enemy is taking war captives only.

So Islam dealt with the problem slowly and wisely. Besides, has Islam set the slaves free all at once it would have not been fair to the masters. At that time, slaves was an assets. It was normal. In addition, freeing them after such a horrible treatment was in place wouldn't be a good decision to take.

Islam if so great could of implemented a system which made slavery illegal. Yet such systems were implemented first in Non-Muslim nations. It reformed the statue quo but did not stop it. None of which is justification for slavery and the required steps other nations needed to take for Muslim nations to make it illegal in the age of Global cultures.

Also put in a link to the site you copy/paste from.[/QUOTE]


First of, I didn't copy it from any site. This is an answer I wrote time ago and have it as a file.

Second before you reply to anything I hope you actually read the reply and think things over before you reply because it is CLEAR that you didn't.

Many of the point you have addressed were already answered.

Slavery is not for Islam to blame for it was there before Islam came.

Making it illegal won't solve the problem as shown in the example I gave. Hate will spread between the two sides after the horrible treatment slaves were receiving. Racism will still exist.

Islam made what we will refer to as "masters" and "slaves" as brothers in Islam. Reread the verses and Hadiths to see that.

Not only that, Islam made freeing slaves a priority in some events and a way to heaven so muslims used to go to slave markets to buy slaves and free them instantly.

Had slavery been stopped, more problems would have arrived. It doesn't require much thinking so one can see that.

Islam dealt with the problem in steps and the solution with it was ideal.

This approach ended slavery with no side effects.

 

[LuisDantas]

I've heard that before that Jesus was tired of peaceful means and was considering turning to the sword. His action at the temple was the start of that change of heart.

it is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a political dissident. Which is easy to be in a non secular country. No doubt his action at the temple caused him to be hoisted with his own petard. he messed with the money.

What do you mean by "easy in a non secular country"? I'm not sure there even was such a thing as secular countries back in the day.

 

[Sabour]

It wasn't, but Islam didn't change the fact that slaves were trafficked in huge numbers. In fact it grew.

If you have time, please refer to post #586 and read it.

If not see my response on #594.

Same points but simplified.

 

[Tabb]

Indeed. In fact, it means very little at all. It is not even broadly indicative of their values or even beliefs.

Which is one of the main reasons why it is a stretch to say that even monotheistic religions share such a concept. Even Abrahamic religions suffer a lot attempting to lend that nominal agreement any actual meaning.

Mostly, it is a statement of a desire to have a common core concept. One that usually falls short in practice, far as actual goals or beliefs go.




What good is a system that would need people that do not actually exist in order to truly work?




There is the Bahai Faith as well. Actually, there may well be thousands depending on how exactly you differentiate among religions. Or even just one if you decide that despite everything Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahais should be considered as sharing a central important belief (which I advise against).

Even then, Abrahamic faiths are hardly representative of religion in general, although I do acknowledge that much of their appeal is the idea that somehow they should substitute all others. An idea that I definitely do not support.

It's hard for me to present a valid argument on a lot of your points since I'm probably not the best guy to defend religions in general my point of view of faith would be believe in a higher power, acknowledge his/her existence, and behave yourself. Everything after that is window dressing. However I do respect all religions. They all have something to offer society. The trick is to not allow it to become the end all to be all for the people. Mankind has a responsibility to explore and understand the universe first. Religion should never get in the way of purposeful science.

 

[MD]

If you have time, please refer to post #586 and read it.

If not see my response on #594.

Same points but simplified.

You're really ignoring how horrible slavery was, even then. And Islam justified slavery of non Muslims, like my own people or the black sub Saharan Africans. The word 'kaffir' is the same as the n-word in many Islamic countries and is used to denote that non believers are sub human.

Only the Abrahamic religions used the concept of infidel to destroy those not of their faith. The Christians used it in their conquest of the natives of the Americas and in Africa. The Arabs did it as well. Heck the Arabs and Europeans used it against each other in all the crusades.

This is a concept which is strongly associated with the Abrahamic faiths and you should recognize that this word has caused untold suffering in the lives of hundreds of millions over the course of your religions history because it labels the rest of us as sub human. You may not see it that way, but the vast majority of Muslims did in history.

The only exception were the pluralistic Sufis. Even the Shia's used it as an excuse during the Safavid dynasty to massacre Sunnis and Zoroastrians by the Hundreds of thousands when they made Iran into a Shi'a majority country.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's hard for me to present a valid argument on a lot of your points since I'm probably not the best guy to defend religions in general my point of view of faith would be believe in a higher power, acknowledge his/her existence, and behave yourself. Everything after that is window dressing. However I do respect all religions. They all have something to offer society. The trick is to not allow it to become the end all to be all for the people. Mankind has a responsibility to explore and understand the universe first. Religion should never get in the way of purposeful science.

Surely you understand that there is such a thing as dangerously misguided, toxic religions?

 

[Tabb]

You're constant defense of Islam's more negative side is getting tiresome, even for a liberal. Slavery was practiced for 10 centuries by the Arabs vs 4 centuries by the Europeans. Zoroastrians were also slaves.

Are we really arguing the difference between 1000 years and 400 years of the evil of slavery. The stain is on everyone's house. Africans, Europeans, and Asia Minor. It is an evil of mankind and no one culture has a monopoly on this evil.

 

[Tabb]

Surely you understand that there is such a thing as dangerously misguided, toxic religions?

Yes I do, but you won't acknowledge that it is not one of the major religions that you can exclude from that description.