Your position about Islam

[Sabour]

You're really ignoring how horrible slavery was, even then. And Islam justified slavery of non Muslims, like my own people or the black sub Saharan Africans. The word 'kaffir' is the same as the n-word in many Islamic countries and is used to denote that non believers are sub human.

Only the Abrahamic religions used the concept of infidel to destroy those not of their faith. The Christians used it in their conquest of the natives of the Americas and in Africa. The Arabs did it as well. Heck the Arabs and Europeans used it against each other in all the crusades.

This is a concept which is strongly associated with the Abrahamic faiths and you should recognize that this word has caused untold suffering in the lives of hundreds of millions over the course of your religions history because it labels the rest of us as sub human. You may not see it that way, but the vast majority of Muslims did in history.

The only exception were the pluralistic Sufis. Even the Shia's used it as an excuse during the Safavid dynasty to massacre Sunnis and Zoroastrians by the Hundreds of thousands when they made Iran into a Shi'a majority country.

I am not ignoring that slavery is horrible.

In Arabic, the word kaffir means one who doesn't believe in something. It doesnt mean we should kill him. Is it any religion's fault that people are behaving like animals and taking things out of context? Do you think they even care about their religion?

Every religion in its essence teaches about love. Do you think that care about their religion? Do you really think their motive is their religion?

If that is the case, why they have their religion understood in the wrong way?

Let me answer you, people do such acts because they simply want to do it. They cover up the reasons by saying it is religions whereas the truth is that they do whatever they do because for the love of money and the love of power.

I agree that there would be people misguided and they think this is what their religion tells them to do. But they are in small percentages.

I strongly believe that more than 90 % people who are corrupting KNOW that this is not what their religion tells them to do.

Had it not been for religion they will also find another reason to act upon what they want.

 

[MD]

I am not ignoring that slavery is horrible.

In Arabic, the word kaffir means one who doesn't believe in something. It doesnt mean we should kill him. Is it any religion's fault that people are behaving like animals and taking things out of context? Do you think they even care about their religion?

Every religion in its essence teaches about love. Do you think that care about their religion? Do you really think their motive is their religion?

If that is the case, why they have their religion understood in the wrong way?

Let me answer you, people do such acts because they simply want to do it. They cover up the reasons by saying it is religions whereas the truth is that they do whatever they do because for the love of money and the love of power.

I agree that there would be people misguided and they think this is what their religion tells them to do. But they are in small percentages.

I strongly believe that more than 90 % people who are corrupting KNOW that this is not what their religion tells them to do.

Had it not been for religion they will also find another reason to act upon what they want.

Very well said, I have to give you that point. People will find excuses to kill each other over anything.

Nonetheless this kaffir thing has been a big part of Islam's history. Even today all the Sunni-Shia wars are by one calling the other Kaffir. 200,000 Syrians have died in a Sunni-Shia war in Syria, and now it has started in Iraq and Yemen. It will spread all over the Muslim world if this concept of 'infidel' isn't corrected by your scholars, and millions will perish if Sunni-Shia conflicts get to Pakistan or India.

 

[Sabour]

Very well said, I have to give you that point. People will find excuses to kill each other over anything.

Nonetheless this kaffir thing has been a big part of Islam's history. Even today all the Sunni-Shia wars are by one calling the other Kaffir. 200,000 Syrians have died in a Sunni-Shia war in Syria, and now it has started in Iraq and Yemen. It will spread all over the Muslim world if this concept of 'infidel' isn't corrected by your scholars, and millions will perish if Sunni-Shia conflicts get to Pakistan or India.

Thank you for that

What I said and what you Frubaled me about also applies to muslims.

Islam is what we are told to do, not what we do.

 

[MD]

Thank you for that

What I said and what you Frubaled me about also applies to muslims.

Islam is what we are told to do, not what we do.

But your scholars 'tell you' what to do. Most Muslims don't question the interpretations scholars give out. That's why the Salafis are filled with blood against the Shi'as and vice versa.

 

[Shad]

First of, I didn't copy it from any site. This is an answer I wrote time ago and have it as a file.

The format of the post threw me off as it was too organized for just a normal post.

Second before you reply to anything I hope you actually read the reply and think things over before you reply because it is CLEAR that you didn't.

I understood. I read your responses and found these not convincing for the reasons I have posted.. This is evident with punishment for the masters rather than something direct concerning the slaves themselves.

Many of the point you have addressed were already answered.

Answers which were not convincing in my opinion.

Slavery is not for Islam to blame for it was there before Islam came.

Never said it was. I said it reformed the status quo rather than making a practice we now see as immoral illegal.

Making it illegal won't solve the problem as shown in the example I gave. Hate will spread between the two sides after the horrible treatment slaves were receiving. Racism will still exist.

Racism is a secondary issue to slavery. It does not justify slavery no more than "there are always rich people" justifies it. There are also cases in which slavery is not isolated to race. You are using an American view as a universal view.

Islam made what we will refer to as "masters" and "slaves" as brothers in Islam. Reread the verses and Hadiths to see that.

Brothers in faith not social status. When one is a slave and one is a master this is a social hierarchy. One position has direct power over the other.

Not only that, Islam made freeing slaves a priority in some events and a way to heaven so muslims used to go to slave markets to buy slaves and free them instantly.

If it was a priority why were Muslim nations among the last to make it illegal? Why is freeing a slave a punishment for the master rather than for the direct benefit of the slave? This answer was not included in anything you have cited but asserted.

Had slavery been stopped, more problems would have arrived. It doesn't require much thinking so one can see that.

Still not a reason to keep slavery in practice. Are you saying God is completely incapable of creating a solution and putting it in practice while mere humans have done so? Allah is inept then?

Islam dealt with the problem in steps and the solution with it was ideal.

Steps which took centuries in comparison to other nations? Steps which requirement mandates from other nation enforced upon Muslim nations to make it illegal? You are making excuses...

This approach ended slavery with no side effects.

"This" approach produced no results. It required non-Islamic ideas and action to resolve.

 

[Sabour]

But your scholars 'tell you' what to do. Most Muslims don't question the interpretations scholars give out. That's why the Salafis are filled with blood against the Shi'as and vice versa.

It is not necessarily scholars, often it is people with an interest for how something would go.

As muslims we are responsible asking for evidence in every regard and anything that is 99.9% proved is not taken by because simply it is not 100 %

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes I do, but you won't acknowledge that it is not one of the major religions that you can exclude from that description.

Do I have a reason to?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I would say these are special cases .

I disagree. I still stand firmly that men and women were to be treated equally. Both to be equally respected and respect in the same way.

Again, that is relative to the family.


But I think if that is a concern for you from now, than in my opinion and ONLY in my opinion, I think you are thinking in the wrong direction. If in case anyone is asking such a question I would tell him don't think with your emotions and don't let fear drive you. I would tell him get the facts and know more about it. For if it is proven true, there won't be a reason to be a apostate.

That is of course if he were interested

Then we need to look at the reality of the situation. The majority of Muslim households that I have seen are somewhat accepting of people who are non-muslims but not of Apostates. I don't know every single Muslim in the world but I have known several and continue to know several. And this seems to be the general trend I view. Non-muslims are simply people who haven't been properly converted yet by Allah and Apostates are ones who have actively rejected Allah. The latter of the two is far more grievous of a crime.

 

[Shad]

Then we need to look at the reality of the situation. The majority of Muslim households that I have seen are somewhat accepting of people who are non-muslims but not of Apostates. I don't know every single Muslim in the world but I have known several and continue to know several. And this seems to be the general trend I view. Non-muslims are simply people who haven't been properly converted yet by Allah and Apostates are ones who have actively rejected Allah. The latter of the two is far more grievous of a crime.

I have several Ex-Muslim friends who has lost family and home due to leaving the religion. I have several which feign their devotion as their family are fanatical Muslims.

 

[Parsimony]

What one considers a proof is relative to each person himself.

That's exactly my point. The Quran is not proof to everyone.

For some people, a change in the heart or effect of it on the heart is considered enough proof for others it is not. I suggest you look into it yourself.

I suggest you read the Quraan and listen to some people who came to Islam and see what is it that they found and convinced them.

The other religions can cause a change of heart as well.

When Allah shows you both ways and tell you that you are free to choose and tells you about the consequences, than you also should be understanding about that.

Except it's not that simple. The religion I was brought up under says that you must believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh or you will burn in Hell for eternity. Since you do not accept that Jesus is God, does that mean that you have willfully chosen to burn in Hell? No, it doesn't. Your unbelief simply means that you do not find sufficient reason to believe that Jesus is God. Same thing for Non-Muslims. It's not that they have willfully chosen to go against something that they know is true, it's that they simply don't find reason to believe it is true in the first place.

It is not that Allah doesn't want you to believe, it is than belief won't be forced on anyone unwilling to seek the truth.

Allah has given us free choice in the path we choose to walk in. If you will seek Allah one will find a way.

13:11

For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah . Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron.


16:33

Do the disbelievers await [anything] except that the angels should come to them or there comes the command of your Lord? Thus did those do before them. And Allah wronged them not, but they had been wronging themselves.

As I said before, if He does want us all to believe, then He could have put explicit, verifiable scientific truths in the Quran. He knows what everyone's personal burden of proof is for belief in Him. He knows that beliefs are not something that a person can change at will. A change in beliefs requires a level of evidence and reason that is unique to each individual. Even if God did provide proof that Islam is the true religion, people could still choose disobey Him. Is that not what Iblis did? He knew with a certainty that the Islamic God existed but chose to disobey anyway. So it's not like proof would deprive people of free will.

I've heard that the angels in Islam do not have free will. They must serve God. If that is correct (I don't know if that is your interpretation or not), then it seems that God doesn't have a problem with forcing intelligent creatures to obey His will in the first place. If it's okay to force angels, why not humans too?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I hope that only interested member about the topic would reply to it.

I have been pointed to create this thread in this section so I would be able to debate things.



Please note that some complex questions may require some time so I can get the answer to. I may also answer some question along with youtube videos.

I wish questions would be more directed towards theology and about Islam rather than being about Muslims and what they seem to do.

After all, not all muslims represent Islam. I would like to start with a misconception about Islam. This misconception is that we hate Jesus peace be upon him. As a matter of fact we don't and it is the other way round. Jesus peace be upon him is one of the greatest prophets in Islam and no one can be a muslim without believing in him and his miraculous birth from the mother Mary. There are far more misconceptions about Islam an here I would like to shed light and debate some of them


Two things I wish to hear from members so we can debate when there is a room for debate. I would be basing my answers from the Quraan when possible.

1- What is your position about Islam?

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

The position of Islam that holds the teachings of terrorism
And many verses
I want to ask you is there any teachings of love and peace in the Qur'an
Do you know the meaning of the burner and copied in the Qur'an
My argument is based on the Koran and the Koran and the Hadith and history
2. the attitude of Islam towards Christ is not true
There are contradictions in the Quran about Jesus
And a novel of birth is incorrect
A novel lano'mn which we Christians
Islam Prophet Muhammad to the divinity of Christ
Jesus was not a prophet because he is faithful, the big difference between Muhammad and Jesus

Christ told us of their fruits you will know them
Fruit of Islam, the blood and fight terrorism from the beginning and today
From the battles of Badr, Muhammad invasions to fight apostates to the differences of the Umayyads and kill the sons of Fatima Bint Muhammad al-Hasan and al-Husayn, fighting the Persians and Ottomans fighting and blood
Do you want to know more about Islam
​

​

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Christ told us of their fruits you will know them
Fruit of Islam, the blood and fight terrorism from the beginning and today
From the battles of Badr, Muhammad invasions to fight apostates to the differences of the Umayyads and kill the sons of Fatima Bint Muhammad al-Hasan and al-Husayn, fighting the Persians and Ottomans fighting and blood
Do you want to know more about Islam
​

 

[YmirGF]

Islam also makes clear whom a Muslim is allowed to marry as far as his/her religion is concerned. Marriage with an idolater is totally forbidden (see Holy Qur'an, 2:222) for both sexes. However, men are allowed to marry women of the "people of the Book" (i.e., those who follow a revealed scripture), although it is not considered preferable.

Furthermore, you should be aware that the Promised Messiah (peace be on him) limited the category "people of the Book" to Jewish and Christian women. He has also prohibited Ahmadi women from marrying non-Ahmadi men. The reasoning behind this is very sound. A woman is not permitted to marry outside her faith because when she is in her husband's home and environment, she and her children are exposed to non-Muslim and non-Ahmadi culture and practices. This makes it very difficult for her to remain steadfast in her own faith and bring up her children as Muslims. A man, on the other hand can more easily influence his wife and bring her into the Islamic way of life.
source

The above perfectly illustrates why I tell people to go to authentic Islamic sources. The more these folks try to explain things the bigger mess they make. The above is so brutally insulting to women that it is amazing that anyone would take it seriously.

I've heard that the angels in Islam do not have free will. They must serve God. If that is correct (I don't know if that is your interpretation or not), then it seems that God doesn't have a problem with forcing intelligent creatures to obey His will in the first place. If it's okay to force angels, why not humans too?

Given that many Muslims believe in predestination the appeals to freedom of choice and free will, in general, end up being pretty superficial.

 

[Estro Felino]

On a side not, slavery was in the Arab world before Islam came.

See my other post to know how Islam dealt with slavery

yes. and we all know how Islam deals with respecting other religions.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've heard that before that Jesus was tired of peaceful means and was considering turning to the sword. His action at the temple was the start of that change of heart.

it is no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a political dissident. Which is easy to be in a non secular country. No doubt his action at the temple caused him to be hoisted with his own petard. he messed with the money.

well...rejecting a dishonest economy cannot be compared to slaughtering 800 Jews in one night....

 

[sun rise]

You're constant defense of Islam's more negative side is getting tiresome, even for a liberal. Slavery was practiced for 10 centuries by the Arabs vs 4 centuries by the Europeans. Zoroastrians were also slaves.

Go back and reread what I wrote. I did not defend slavery. I pointed out that those dates are wholly wrong and provided a reference where the facts can be found,

 

[YmirGF]

Go back and reread what I wrote. I did not defend slavery. I pointed out that those dates are wholly wrong and provided a reference where the facts can be found,

I think a salient point is that Islam never condemned slavery, it simply recommends that one treat slaves well and that it is hunky dory to have sex with ones slaves. Another small point is that slavery was never abolished in Islam, though Muslims have largely moved away from the practice so as to not horribly offend the rest of the world and make their membership in the UN impossible.

 

[Tabb]

well...rejecting a dishonest economy cannot be compared to slaughtering 800 Jews in one night....

Don' t know where that one came from. What does that mean.

 

[Estro Felino]

Don' t know where that one came from. What does that mean.

I mean that Jesus has never killed anyone. It is very laughable to keep listening always to the same things: that a pacifist like Jesus is compared to prophets who have nothing to do with pacifism

 

[outhouse]

Your position about Islam ?


The fanaticism is so deep, you cannot even debate what 1 + 1 is with them.


If the koran says the answer 67 they will never answer 2 no matter how patiently you show then what the correct answer is.


You can post simple definitions of words, and if the word is used in a sentence against the Koran, they will argue the definition of the word.


You can give up on getting on honest straight reply as well, if you ask any tough questions.