Your position about Islam

[beenie]

Wait, what? I'm not sure who you are talking to, but I certainly don't think apostasy is or should ever be seen as worth of capital punishment.

It was meant to be sarcasm. Some Muslims believe you can kill apostates, and if terrorists are apostates, let them be gotten rid of. I should have put *sarcasm* or the like. Apologies.

I don't believe apostates should be killed either, of course.

 

[LuisDantas]

This is actually a relevant point, I think. Could it be that saying that, say, ISIS are not true Muslims (which to my mind pretty much amounts to saying they are apostates) is seem as courting with cruelty, because it suggests judging that they are unworthy of living?

 

[sun rise]

Wow! "apostate" is definitely in the eye of the beholder!

Wikipedia has this:

In the Shafi'i school, it is an act of apostasy for a sane adult Muslim to accuse or describe another devout Muslim as an unbeliever.

The Quran says this

“And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is Hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.”

That seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[sun rise]

This is actually a relevant point, I think. Could it be that saying that, say, ISIS are not true Muslims (which to my mind pretty much amounts to saying they are apostates) is seem as courting with cruelty, because it suggests judging that they are unworthy of living?

I call them terrorists and murderers. If you believe in capital punishment, they've earned it. If you believe we're in a war with them, then we need to win that war which means we need to kill them. I could also argue that they should be subject to the laws of the country in which they're operating.

 

[LuisDantas]

I call them terrorists and murderers.

Of course they are. But the matter of whether they can legitimaly claim religious compliance while at that is not insignificant.

If you believe in capital punishment, they've earned it. If you believe we're in a war with them, then we need to win that war which means we need to kill them.

If it does, then the war is quite pointless.

I could also argue that they should be subject to the laws of the country in which they're operating.

That is not a very useful metric. It would make terrorism largely inexistent.

 

[icehorse]

Every Muslim killed by ISIS is considered by ISIS to be an apostate. Sunni say Shia are apostates and Shia say Sunni are. There's been a whole lot of finger pointing going on for the last 1400 years.

 

[Sabour]

I don't know Arabic but I'm aware of verses where the meaning varies wildly from translation to translation so I certainly agree that some are unclear.

And I also know that Quranic Arabic is not a dead language but there are differences between it and modern Arabic. Isn't it true that Quranic Arabic is written without vowels and "tashkil" used to add vowels? Idres Shah argued that the basis of Arabic, the abjad system, is used to encode different meanings in texts which means that different readers can derive different meanings from some verses.

I am not sure but I think the meaning doesn't change if you chose a different readings.

I once heard another reading for chapter 1 of the quraan. There was only one word that differed in the whole chapter and it still implied the same meaning.

 

[Sabour]

Because unfortunately, Muslims are the ones beheading people in the name of Islam, whether Islam teaches it or not.

And here in the thread I am discussing islam and how a muslim should be. Not what people who call themselves muslims are doing.

 

[Sabour]

One of the reasons is that they consistently present themselves as Muslims (which I figure means much the same thing as Islamist, doesn't it?)

Another is that there seems to be practical way to tell them out of that conviction. Or even to have a clear, unanimous statement that they are not Muslims from some recognized Muslim priest or organization.

There probably was, but obviously not enough so to actually stop or even get some sort of explanation from them.

Abd some people constantly present themselves as open minded and deny their interest in attacking islam abd claims they are looking for the truth. But I don't take their word even though they are constantly presenting themselves this way.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry, but I neither know nor managed to deduce the meaning of "abd".

 

[Sha'irullah]

Usually I don't have a position on Islam but if I did it would have to be missionary . . . *rim shot*

 

[Sabour]

Sorry, but I neither know nor managed to deduce the meaning of "abd".

I meant and *

 

[outhouse]

And here in the thread I am discussing islam and how a muslim should be. Not what people who call themselves muslims are doing.

Getting the religion to what it "should be", is not what it is.

Nor can it remain the same as it is now and proceed peacefully into the future. It has proven itself not able.


islam as a whole is embarrassing itself globally as a credible way of life.

 

[Sabour]

Getting the religion to what it "should be", is not what it is.

Nor can it remain the same as it is now and proceed peacefully into the future. It has proven itself not able.


islam as a whole is embarrassing itself globally as a credible way of life.

You in particular know nothing about Islam so you are not in a position to comment on it.

 

[LuisDantas]

And some people constantly present themselves as open minded and deny their interest in attacking islam and claims they are looking for the truth. But I don't take their word even though they are constantly presenting themselves this way.

Being open-minded does not necessarily mean not opposing Muslim Proselitism.

It will depend on how well aware one is of the Abrahamic Faiths, as well as on the local social circunstances.

 

[outhouse]

You in particular know nothing about Islam so you are not in a position to comment on it.

I know enough just by how bad its common followers reject reality

 

[kaoticprofit]

You in particular know nothing about Islam so you are not in a position to comment on it.

I learned more about Islam on September 11, 2001 than you'll learn about it in your lifetime.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I learned more about Islam on September 11, 2001 than you'll learn about it in your lifetime.

I doubt that but I get where you are coming from. Just make sure that your criticism are legitimate and well informed. There is a lot there to criticize but its all for naught if you fall into the anti-Islam fever of post 9/11.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

I learned more about Islam on September 11, 2001 than you'll learn about it in your lifetime.

"I learned more about Christianity in 1478 than you'll learn about it in your lifetime."

 

[sun rise]

I am not sure but I think the meaning doesn't change if you chose a different readings.

I once heard another reading for chapter 1 of the quraan. There was only one word that differed in the whole chapter and it still implied the same meaning.

While I do agree that many verses are almost the same in translation, look at multiple translations of 17:104. Depending on the reading, the state of Israel exists because of Allah's will because these are the end times. Or not. So sometimes the translations are wildly different.