Your saved as soon as you accept jesus.

[The Hammer]

How could you be a Christian, a devout Christian, for years, and not know the answers to the questions you asked me? Why even ask them?
I haven't been a devout Christian, like, ever. So, not sure what point or goal you have in asking me those things.

Those questions, that no one seems to want to (or possibly does not know the answer to) answer, are among a few of the many reasons that caused me to make the decision to leave Christianity for good.

So I thought a discussion would be nice. But again, like always, no one seems to have any answers. It is why I searched elsewhere to find answers. *shrug*

EDIT: To the post that was removed. Obviously you cared, which is why you kept saying that I was issuing a straw man. It apparently means a lot to you.

 

[dantech]

Hey guys, does this remind you of anyone?

 

[asier9]

People think there is some process to go through, but it isn't the case. All one has to do is accept Jesus, and their saved. No magic ceremonies required.

Thanks

I wonder where people got this idea from in the first place? Oh yea the Apostles. It was also a universal belief in the universal Church from the earliest times. It wasn't in fact until modernist heresies started in the 1600's that people began to believe differently. Protestantism which we can accurately describe as the cult of the personal theology in fact gave rise to some people who did come to believe the above.

I believe part of the confusion in those personal theologies developed outside of the Church came from ignoring the fact that one is not simply saved from sin--actually this fact is only incidental. Allow me to explain why:

In the thrust of salvation history. God has made six covenants in total with mankind: with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus Christ. In fact the last three all fulfill the three promises, in succession, that God made to Abraham, while the promises (blessings, explainged below) of the first two of those last three weren't themselves completely fulfilled until the last one (so we can think of these six covenants as really being one complex meta-covenant, which was totally fulfilled by The Covenant made flesh).

It is important to note here that a covenant is radically different than a contract. In the latter two parties promise an exchange of goods or services. Hiring a prostitute, for example, could be thought of as a contract. You pay her--or him--for use of a body and when you are through you don't consider yourself bound as family members or otherwise feel bound for the rest of one's life. While in a covenant two parties bring God into the equation making Him a witness to the promise (obviously in the cases where God made covenants with men he was not only a Witness but also an involved Party) and it is an exchange of persons, not services. Covenants in short make families that are even more primary than biological relationships. Sacramental Marriage, for example, is a covenant. God who is Himself a family unto himself in the Trinity,has since Adam being trying to bring us into His own family life. Which brings us back to the first sentence of the previous paragraph: we are not just saved from sin,but rather saved for Divine sonship (1John 3:1).

Again it is only incidental that before we can be saved for this, we first had to have been saved from our sin--and even more centrally from the curses invoked from those 5 broken covenants of the Old Testament (Covenants involve blessings when they are kept and curses when they are broken).

To be born a son of God (in other words reborn) requires that we are Baptized in the God's name, i.e. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so that we might be buried and resurrected with Christ (Col 2:12), and since the very beginning the Church has not only been Baptizing its members but has also Christmated them. After our Baptism we become ourselves Christs (anointed ones) and sons of God. So through the sacraments (literally meaning a sacred oath unitl death, which is another way of saying a covenant promise--oh yea, by the way, covenants are permenant pledges) of Baptism and Confirmation (Christmation) we are made sons of God through Jesus Christ. A son does his father's will, so if we have been baptized in the name of the Father and Christmated, and do our Father's will then we are saved.

I think this also goes to the heart of the attack on justification by those who protest the Church (Protestants). The Church has never proclaimed we can "earn" our salvation through works. Salvation for Divine sonship comes only through Grace. However how can one honestly claim to be a son of a Father whose commandments they do not sincerely desire to keep?

 

[Christer]

People think there is some process to go through, but it isn't the case. All one has to do is accept Jesus, and their saved. No magic ceremonies required.

Thanks

To say that if one just one accepts Jesus he or she is saved is very simplistic. of course salvation is the free gift from God. For |God creating and saving are not two different actions. They are one. God saves as he or she creates. But human beings have the possibility to be in a state where they are not aware of their true state. We are in forgetfulness or dreaming. We need to remember our true nature or awake from our dreams. Salvation is not something to be achieved but discovering that we have been already saved by God. But in order to do that we need to purify our ignorant self. It is necessary to follow a moral life until we discover our true state. Just believing is Jesus does not effect this this transformation. Some people think that just by believing in Jesus they can be saved and they can do whatever they wish and not bound by any moral life. This does not correspond to the vision of Christ. Jesus Christ said, first of all seek you the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'. He did not say' Believe in the kingdom of God and you will be saved'. Believing in the kingdom of God is the starting point. Then we have to become the seeker of the kingdom of God. This transition from believers to seekers is very important.

 

[Desert Snake]

I wonder where people got this idea from in the first place? Oh yea the Apostles. It was also a universal belief in the universal Church from the earliest times. It wasn't in fact until modernist heresies started in the 1600's that people began to believe differently. Protestantism which we can accurately describe as the cult of the personal theology in fact gave rise to some people who did come to believe the above.

I believe part of the confusion in those personal theologies developed outside of the Church came from ignoring the fact that one is not simply saved from sin--actually this fact is only incidental. Allow me to explain why:

In the thrust of salvation history. God has made six covenants in total with mankind: with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus Christ. In fact the last three all fulfill the three promises, in succession, that God made to Abraham, while the promises (blessings, explainged below) of the first two of those last three weren't themselves completely fulfilled until the last one (so we can think of these six covenants as really being one complex meta-covenant, which was totally fulfilled by The Covenant made flesh).

It is important to note here that a covenant is radically different than a contract. In the latter two parties promise an exchange of goods or services. Hiring a prostitute, for example, could be thought of as a contract. You pay her--or him--for use of a body and when you are through you don't consider yourself bound as family members or otherwise feel bound for the rest of one's life. While in a covenant two parties bring God into the equation making Him a witness to the promise (obviously in the cases where God made covenants with men he was not only a Witness but also an involved Party) and it is an exchange of persons, not services. Covenants in short make families that are even more primary than biological relationships. Sacramental Marriage, for example, is a covenant. God who is Himself a family unto himself in the Trinity,has since Adam being trying to bring us into His own family life. Which brings us back to the first sentence of the previous paragraph: we are not just saved from sin,but rather saved for Divine sonship (1John 3:1).

Again it is only incidental that before we can be saved for this, we first had to have been saved from our sin--and even more centrally from the curses invoked from those 5 broken covenants of the Old Testament (Covenants involve blessings when they are kept and curses when they are broken).

To be born a son of God (in other words reborn) requires that we are Baptized in the God's name, i.e. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so that we might be buried and resurrected with Christ (Col 2:12), and since the very beginning the Church has not only been Baptizing its members but has also Christmated them. After our Baptism we become ourselves Christs (anointed ones) and sons of God. So through the sacraments (literally meaning a sacred oath unitl death, which is another way of saying a covenant promise--oh yea, by the way, covenants are permenant pledges) of Baptism and Confirmation (Christmation) we are made sons of God through Jesus Christ. A son does his father's will, so if we have been baptized in the name of the Father and Christmated, and do our Father's will then we are saved.

I think this also goes to the heart of the attack on justification by those who protest the Church (Protestants). The Church has never proclaimed we can "earn" our salvation through works. Salvation for Divine sonship comes only through Grace. However how can one honestly claim to be a son of a Father whose commandments they do not sincerely desire to keep?

Protestants have something to do with my OP? No protestants agreed with the OP afaik. Basically, no idea what your talking about.

 

[Desert Snake]

To say that if one just one accepts Jesus he or she is saved is very simplistic. of course salvation is the free gift from God. For |God creating and saving are not two different actions. They are one. God saves as he or she creates. But human beings have the possibility to be in a state where they are not aware of their true state. We are in forgetfulness or dreaming. We need to remember our true nature or awake from our dreams. Salvation is not something to be achieved but discovering that we have been already saved by God. But in order to do that we need to purify our ignorant self. It is necessary to follow a moral life until we discover our true state. Just believing is Jesus does not effect this this transformation. Some people think that just by believing in Jesus they can be saved and they can do whatever they wish and not bound by any moral life. This does not correspond to the vision of Christ. Jesus Christ said, first of all seek you the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'. He did not say' Believe in the kingdom of God and you will be saved'. Believing in the kingdom of God is the starting point. Then we have to become the seeker of the kingdom of God. This transition from believers to seekers is very important.

Uh, ok. So what baptism is the final conversion point....?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

well everytime christians say this they mean you must accept mainstream pauline christianity & you are saved.
christians tell me i dont really believe in jesus because i dont believe in jesus the way paul tells us to.

Mainstream 'christianity' does not teach what the apostle Paul taught nor does what any other apostle teach differ from what Paul teaches.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You have no ideas what you are missing.

I have a very good idea of how to save myself from falling in a ditch. I would not have my nose cut to see the emperor's clothes.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

To say that if one just one accepts Jesus he or she is saved is very simplistic. of course salvation is the free gift from God. For |God creating and saving are not two different actions. They are one. God saves as he or she creates. But human beings have the possibility to be in a state where they are not aware of their true state. We are in forgetfulness or dreaming. We need to remember our true nature or awake from our dreams. Salvation is not something to be achieved but discovering that we have been already saved by God. But in order to do that we need to purify our ignorant self. It is necessary to follow a moral life until we discover our true state. Just believing is Jesus does not effect this this transformation. Some people think that just by believing in Jesus they can be saved and they can do whatever they wish and not bound by any moral life. This does not correspond to the vision of Christ. Jesus Christ said, first of all seek you the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'. He did not say' Believe in the kingdom of God and you will be saved'. Believing in the kingdom of God is the starting point. Then we have to become the seeker of the kingdom of God. This transition from believers to seekers is very important.

Whatever your religious assumption is it is not remotely biblical and is not congruent with what any of the apostles teach,

 

[Yes]

No, I just showed you bible passages of Jesus and Moses doing miracles to convince unbelievers. Why is it fair that they got miracles and demonstrations while I have to take things on faith and still something might not happen?

The message has been testified to.
If you want to know for yourself if what Jesus says is true or not, then you have to obey his teachings. I keep telling you what the Bible says you have to do, so then, why don't you just do it...then you will have understanding. I am trying to give you understanding but you won't believe me---so then, find out for yourself.

Also false denomination is your interpretation. On what authority do you claim that your denomination is somehow more correct or superior?

I have not found a denomination which does not teach some falseness. If there is a denomination you would like to discuss, then start a thread on it.

And on what authority do you dismiss rituals?

What rituals do you do, and show where the Bible says to do them.

I repented a variety of sins in confession, although i've never really committed very serious sins. I confessed to relatively minor stuff.

You mistakenly believe that repenting of sins is merely confessing them. I believed that for many years too, because of my false denomination's teachings.

"
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."

That's not what Jesus did--he committed suicide for no reason for his friends. I wouldn't want my friends to commit suicide for me especially when it was completely pointless and there were hudnreds of better solutions. I would consider that an act of cowardice. That's pretty sadistic if you think that. He didn't need to die; dieing served no purpose and was completely unnecessary. That isn't a great love.

All you are doing is denying the truth and giving your worthless opinions.

 

[Yes]

Your "opinion", is that it is the One and only True god, this does not make it fact, or true. It makes it your path/opinion.

I have experience and knowledge because the One in which you are speaking of says to know Him is after obeying Him.
You are merely giving worthless opinions.

My way is not your way, but it is no less correct. Odin is alive and well, as are the rest of the Aesir and Vanir, for those who have the eyes and ears for this version of the truth. Don't worry, I understand, not everyone can handle this truth, which is fine. Your version works for you, and mine works for me.

Odin is not a "copy-cat" God, remember who came first historically. It was not the God of Abraham.

Worshiping those gods are the worship of demons.

 

[The Hammer]

I have experience and knowledge because the One in which you are speaking of says to know Him is after obeying Him.
You are merely giving worthless opinions.


Worshiping those gods are the worship of demons.

I have experience and knowledge, because I have an intimate relationship with the Gods and Spirits of this realm.

You call my opinions worthless, while doing nothing but iterating opinions yourself.
In your 'opinion', I am worshipping demons. But it is/was normal for Christians to demonize anything that did not fit in their worldview.

Refrain from Ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

EDIT: I told you you would call my gods demons. And you said I was putting words in your mouth.

 

[AllanV]

Your verses don't disprove my OP.

To say that if one just one accepts Jesus he or she is saved is very simplistic. of course salvation is the free gift from God. Jesus Christ said, first of all seek you the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'. He did not say' Believe in the kingdom of God and you will be saved'. Believing in the kingdom of God is the starting point. Then we have to become the seeker of the kingdom of God. This transition from believers to seekers is very important.

When I first went to churches they behaved in ways that could not be understood. There were ceremonies and expectations and in some, walking to the front to give the heart to Jesus or such like. It was all under scrutiny by the Church leadership. But where was the Love and the divine nature? There are different gifts.
The whole question is around what Jesus said, seek the Kingdom and its righteousness. The problem is belief which is a requirement of righteousness but it is tainted with the world and memories and thoughts that have all been created when associating with sinners as you once were. We were baptized for remission of sins, imbued with the Holy Spirit as a deposit and live under grace and given access to something we would never have considered possible.

All those things in this old mind must be renounced and stepped away from.

The goal is Love and to be energized by God in the divine nature of Jesus. We are to leave Adam's nature and find the nature of Jesus.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is Love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

How does one believe entirely?

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

It is necessary to believe and speak out at the same time. One does not work without the other.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

It is impossible to break the heart deeply enough while retaining something of the old self for an appropriate presentation of the body to God.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

It is important to get to the place where every last aspect in the old person's mind is pushed away from.


Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.




.

 

[Yes]

Certainly it is, you claimed that you could provide a means for me to get that "knowledge". If I cannot get that "knowledge", then you were wrong. So I am to assume that you're going to ***** out?

Do what I said then lets talk about it.

 

[Yes]

I was part of a church and I am baptized. So...

You don't have to join a church to know God's Truth. In fact, you will probably get false information that way.

 

[Yes]

No, I'm responding to someone who claims to have a means of producing knowledge, yet I'm saying that I've already been there, already done that and I found no knowledge. Therefore, their means is wrong. It doesn't work. The claim is false.

Tell me what you have done.

 

[Yes]

It seems to matter not the amount of times the irony is pointed out here. Those who wish not to recognize it simply will not. It is being said over and over to first learn and obey teachings and then you will "find out". "Find out" being, of course, believe the right way. Thing is, we are being asked to believe in order to believe.
To believe in a man, a deity-man, in not only his existence but that he actually said certain exact words contained within the bible. A book that is really just a collection of stories, compiled, rearranged, translated numerous times into different languages and different versions, interpreted differently by most who read it. Upon this we are expected to base our beliefs around. We are being told first to believe it is factual, that what is contained within it is real, true, and historical, and that if we read it, if we do what it tells us to do, then we will believe.

This whole thing is circular. Believe these things, these entities are real, read about them and what they say, follow them and obey them, and then you will believe in them. Why? Because the bible says it is Word of God and since the Word of God is the truth then the bible must be true. It's enough to make one dizzy.

I have not told you to believe first. I told that if you want to find out if what Jesus says is true or not, you have to get his teachings and obey them. You just have to want to find out. That is what Jesus says.

 

[Yes]

Have you received the Holy Spirit. That is all the evidence you need. Nothing is easy though even after knowing the truth.
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

I do not understand stand the phrase 'your saved as soon as you accept Jesus'
It all appears superficial and there is no true conversion. It becomes another ideology in the same old mind and body.

The works of righteousness that do not save are the ceremonial works, such as circumcision.

We have to obey Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit. See Acts 5:32.

 

[The Hammer]

Tell me what you have done.

So you can berate him for how wrong hi approach was because it was not the exact path you walked? Why? It's what you did to me.

 

[Yes]

So you can berate him for how wrong hi approach was because it was not the exact path you walked? Why? It's what you did to me.

You have to obey Jesus' teaching, and not a denomination's teachings.