Your saved as soon as you accept jesus.

[allfoak]

You accused me before of being a Pharisee, yet you say what the Pharisees said to Jesus. HA

Now you say you are Jesus?

 

[Yes]

Now you say you are Jesus?

You sound like a Pharisee. You should be more careful how you judge, it could very well be the thing you are guilty of being.

 

[The Hammer]

I have been telling you the only way you can know for sure for yourself.

You have to get Jesus' teachings and obey them, and then you will know.

Ok.

EDIT: I am not going to, but ok.

 

[katiemygirl]

Great. But no one who states the above has been consistent; namely, do you then think that all non-Christians are going to hell? Because if you don't, your opinion is contradictory.

It is not up to any of us to say who is going to hell and who is not. That call belongs to our heavenly Father and Him alone.

My job is to preach the gospel, to teach people what they must do to be saved. We should say the same things Jesus and His apostles said. Believe Jesus is the Son of God, repent, confess His name before men, be baptized, and remain faithful.

I don't concern myself with the what ifs.

 

[katiemygirl]

Where you are making mistakes in interpretation here is from faulty church teachings.
You are contradicting yourself as well, in a couple of ways. But instead of talking about the most obvious one, the 'hell' issue, /because I don't know your answer to my previous question yet/, lets examine the 'baptism' thing.
Baptism is a cultural practice. It was being performed by John the Baptist. It is similar to the Jewish Mikvah. Now, when Jesus walked among us, in Israel, He talked in a manner that was appropriate to the area, and the culture. So He got baptized, for example. This was lending credibility to John the Baptist, it was like saying, ''this ceremony is legitimate''. That's why it is also explained that the 'baptism' of Jesus, when Jesus baptizes, that there is a 'difference', from when John or whoever baptizes. This is an important point. It is an indication that the 'water baptism' is not done by Jesus.

The command to baptize has to be taken in this context as well, it's like saying, do this ceremony to show that people are now following Jesus. Anything more than that, and it's magic. It has to be magic because Jesus isn't doing the baptism. And no, Jesus is not doing the baptism ''through''' a pastor or whoever, the Bible condemns that sort of thing.
Here is why what you believe was taught.
-The church was dictating who was an 'adherent' to the church, ie baptizing pagans.
-They morphed this into, ''who was Chrisitian''. See, it makes sense, now, doesn't it? At one time the church really was in a definite manner differentiating who was and wasn't a '' Christian''.
-This turned into, for some churches and people, a doctrine that one must be baptized BY THE CHURCH MIND YOU, if one is to enter Heaven.

There may be an important part here that your missing as well.
The 'baptism ceremony', is actually a .....ceremony..! that's right. 'Baptism' can be done by anyone at any time. So, saying that ''baptism'' is the church ceremony is also misguided.

I can say the same to you, my friend. There may be something you are missing here. Let me remind you. Neither of us have all of the answers. We each have to go with what we believe is the will of God. I truly believe with all of my being that it is the will of God that we be baptized. I see nothing in the Scriptures to contradict that, do you?

I don't say or do anything the Bible doesn't say to do. I follow the examples I have been given in the New Testament.

Peter told the Jews on Pentecost, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

I believe Peter was Jesus'spokesperson. I have no reason to doubt what Peter said. Do you?

Christian baptism is not the same as John's baptism. Jesus commanded it, and it comes with the promised gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[katiemygirl]

This. Ok, so all non-Christians aren't saved then. ie going to hell. Right? Because you are saying there is a process they have to go through to be saved.

You are being disingenuous here. It's not my job to say who is or is not going to hell. That is up to God. All I can do is teach others what they must do to be saved, according to what the Scriptures say. Then the rest is up to them to accept or reject what Jesus commanded.

Jesus is the one who commanded us to believe in Him, to repent, to confess His name, to be baptized, and to remain faithful. Those are His words, not mine. You can call it a process if you'd like, but the commands come from Jesus, so I guess you'll have to complain to Him about it.

 

[katiemygirl]

OK .. but what is "His word" ?

It's your interpretation (or your denomination's interpretation) of the Bible text .. no?

Nope! It's the word, which God promised to preserve forever, which is the Bible.

 

[Cephus]

Ha ha, That's the whole point! Reality is only what you perceive it to be..

Just because you perceive reality as you do, does not mean that other people do.

You are entitled to your opinion of what 'reality' is, but that's all it is .. an opinion

That's ridiculous and you know it. You try to perceive a world where bricks don't exist and I'll be happy to bash you over the head with a brick until you either admit you're wrong or you lose consciousness to blunt force trauma. Reality is reality, perception has nothing to do with what's really out there. Besides, it isn't like the overwhelming majority of theists believe as you do or they wouldn't be out trying to convert others to their religion. If someone's perception of reality is different, such that they don't perceive any gods, what's the point?

This is just an excuse to get around the utter failures of religion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nope! It's the word, which God promised to preserve forever, which is the Bible.

Oh .. magic .. you don't need any knowledge to understand it then..
Everybody who believes the Bible is 'the word' understands it the same, do they?
I think not .. that is why there are so many denominations..

You deny that there are many denominations?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Reality is reality, perception has nothing to do with what's really out there..

Think what you are saying, man!

I think that I know what you are TRYING to say .. reality is physical, hence your 'made of bricks' analogy ..

Wrong! There is such a thing as 'the mind' .. there is such a thing as consciousness .. there is such a thing as intelligence .. and so on..

You may wish to equate these with 'physical cause', but that is neither here nor there .. you don't know .. it's only your OPINION!

You perceive what you perceive, and I perceive what I perceive .. nobody perceives everything completely correctly .. including you

 

[Cephus]

Think what you are saying, man!

I think that I know what you are TRYING to say .. reality is physical, hence your 'made of bricks' analogy ..

Wrong! There is such a thing as 'the mind' .. there is such a thing as consciousness .. there is such a thing as intelligence .. and so on..

You may wish to equate these with 'physical cause', but that is neither here nor there .. you don't know .. it's only your OPINION!

You perceive what you perceive, and I perceive what I perceive .. nobody perceives everything completely correctly .. including you

The mind is an emergent property of the physical brain, nothing more. When the physical brain dies, the mind goes with it. That's not an opinion, that's a demonstrable fact, supported by every shred of evidence that we have. If you would like to present objective evidence to prove it wrong, please feel free. You'll win a Nobel prize.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They can be grafted back in if they do not persist in unbelief.

How would not I persist in unbelief if my eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Your unjust God has not left me any other option.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nonsense! That is just your perception/belief, not mine or others..

Cephus is not talking about perception/belief. He is talking about evidence.

 

[ahamtatsat]

True "story". There is this man who was pretty anti-christian. Not in an active way but very belittling of the whole Jesus and God concept. In his 20's i think, he became converted. Actively assisted the churches, people, missions with a lot of joy, help and money. Did these good works for years and was considered by many hundreds or the thousands of christians that knew him to be a sincere christian.

Thus, to this point the man was bound for hell, then saved when he saw the light and repented sincerely. Now most of the daily life he lived changed, but one aspect - his income - didn't, and someone shot him, paralyzing him from about the waist down. He expected to be healed. Then asked to be healed, then begged to regain the use of the rest of his body, then cried and demanded to be healed, and finally gave up. He hated God, and intensively funded a lot of actions antithetical to what he had done before in his support of christianity.

Supposedly NOW he was again condemned to hell. So this made me clearly realize that Jesus "did his thing" umpteen years ago. That life is done. He set an example that people can choose to follow, or choose to ignore, or even choose to denigrate and belittle. Either way, what Jesus did is done.

Now if one chooses to believe in Jesus as preached and takes him into their heart as taught, and is born again according to normal christian standards they are then saved.

If they choose not to do so, they are not saved according to this dogma.

Either way - Jesus actions are no different - the example has been provided. The choice is, and always has been YOURS to make. If you choose to become the best possible christian and work assiduously to that end then supposedly Jesus won't stop you. If you do this for 60 years and then just say you are too tired and don't give a bat crap about it anymore, Jesus won't stop you. Do you get the theme here? One's "salvation" (paulist concept, not Jesus teaching) is totally and irrevocably dependent upon one's self, and only one's self. Jesus doesn't do anything.

 

[Cephus]

Cephus is not talking about perception/belief. He is talking about evidence.

Something of which they know nothing about, unfortunately.

 

[AllanV]

Something of which they know nothing about, unfortunately.

Faith has evidence. I have seen the evidence. It is true. God is an energizing Spirit. God wears light as with a garment. God makes every thing seen appear at every instant. We have our being and presence in God.
We take up some space as every atom does in God's universe and on the planet earth.

 

[Cephus]

Faith has evidence. I have seen the evidence. It is true. God is an energizing Spirit. God wears light as with a garment. God makes every thing seen appear at every instant. We have our being and presence in God.
We take up some space as every atom does in God's universe and on the planet earth.

No, faith DOESN'T have evidence. Faith has empty, unsupported and unjustifiable claims which cannot be examined objectively. That is the exact opposite of evidence.

Find yourself a dictionary.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, faith DOESN'T have evidence...

No, it doesn't .. but it can be based on evidence .. evidence that you deny..

I'm completely happy with the evidence .. I'm not a fool .. there is no point arguing with people who deny basic facts. Your claim is in the 'scriptures are fairy tales' camp. That is complete nonsense, whether you wish to admit it or not!

I'm not talking about whether a particuar verse of a particular scripture is true .. I'm talking about the definition of fairy tales .. it's pure fiction.

Your claim that scripture is fiction is total lies. You want to deny (possible) truth, that's all..

 

[AllanV]

No, faith DOESN'T have evidence. Faith has empty, unsupported and unjustifiable claims which cannot be examined objectively. That is the exact opposite of evidence.

Find yourself a dictionary.

The word faith is, emun. Which has the meaning - established - trusty - trustworthiness -

and faithful - truth -
The truth is established in them, and this is my evidence, the truth is in me.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[Cephus]

No, it doesn't .. but it can be based on evidence .. evidence that you deny..

Nobody is denying any evidence, you're claiming to have evidence that is not... well... in evidence.

I'm completely happy with the evidence .. I'm not a fool .. there is no point arguing with people who deny basic facts. Your claim is in the 'scriptures are fairy tales' camp. That is complete nonsense, whether you wish to admit it or not!

Your happiness is entirely irrelevant to whether or not you have evidence to support your claims. No matter how many times you say you have evidence, if you can't actually present that evidence for evaluation, you don't have evidence. It's not that other people deny basic facts, it's that you have an extremely poor understanding of the burden of proof.

Your claim that scripture is fiction is total lies. You want to deny (possible) truth, that's all..

I'm not denying anything, I'm saying that based on what we actually have, the evidence that has actually been presented, the only rational conclusion is that religion is a complete fiction. There is no demonstrable truth to it. Just because you want it to be true, that doesn't make it any more likely to be true. Your happiness has no bearing on the factual truth of religion. We don't validate Einstein's Theory of Relativity because it makes people feel good. We do it because it demonstrably works in the real world. When are you going to get around to proving that your religion is actually true in the real world, using demonstrable evidence that can be freely examined?