You're going to Heaven, like it or not!

[Ðanisty]

I now know what Luciferianism is because you took the time to post links and talk about it. I no longer have false images of what a Luciferian believes.

Well, you got to learn something about it because you accepted it. People who never get past acceptance rarely get more than disdain. There's a lot of people out there following LHP religions that would like to get correct information out, but people become unwilling to listen because of the behavior of a few people or just because they are afraid. I certainly can't promise that every Luciferian you meet will see things the way I do because it's a rather diverse and yet solitary path, but I think you'll probably find that most of them are pretty normal.

I'm happy that you're here and want you to know that you're an asset to RF.

I'm trying...lol. I've sort of developed a fondness for this place. I've joined occult communities before and found them generally less accepting. It's probably because most of them aren't theists and have a tendency to see theism as a weakness. To be honest, most of them are afraid of the word religion too.

 

[dawny0826]

I'm trying...lol. I've sort of developed a fondness for this place.

I'm admittedly an addict.

 

[sojourner]

An interesting thread Squirt. But we only have the two main choices, eh?

If only after-death reality were as cut and dried as most of you seem to thing. I can assure you that whatever you believe will occur, will occur... at least for a short while. So far, the views of after-death realms can be gleaned from both Lucid Dreaming and from Out of Body experience. Both give very good approximations of what the after-death reality is like.

Many will flit around their favorite god, some will be attracted to the advesary. It doesn't really matter which way is chosen however, as both will crumple under the reality that shines through, eventually. It is my deep suspicion that one can only deny reality for so long and then well, one is made aware of it. Illusion become smoke on the wind as one gets on to the "meat" of making choices in the "between times", for their "next" life.

This is basically my point. God is more real than we can possibly understand. We live largely in worlds of our own individual making, based upon our perception of reality. But we don't have the whole picture -- only part of the picture. We make assumptions about reality based upon our perceptions. I believe that, when we are face-to-face with God, we will be face-to-face with ultimate reality. We will find what we have unconsciously been seeking our whole lives -- God in all God's realness -- and we will want that.

 

[Squirt]

The difference it that in an Islamic point of view, we are responsible for our own deeds, so as I said before, not all will go straightaway to heaven, but will first have to pay for their own sins at the cost of hell. This is justice in Islam.

I was struck initially by the similarities in our beliefs but, while there are some, there are also some significant differences. I don't believe any of us will initially go to either Heaven or Hell, as I don't see our final destination as being determined based on a relatively short (maybe 89 or 90 years) period of time. I see us as all going to a spirit realm to await the resurrection of our bodies. Now this state will be very much like Heaven for those who lived righteous lives. It will be more like Hell for those who were essentially wicked. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ paid the price for my sins, provided I would acknowledge that fact and do my best to keep His commandments. If I remain true to the covenant I made with Him at my baptism, I will be blessed with peace and rest as I await the resurrection. I will not be made to suffer for my sins. I believe that while still in this spirit realm, those who rejected Jesus Christ will be made to pay the price for their own sins. They may be granted freedom from the mental anguish they brought upon themselves by recognizing that this burden might be taken away from them by accepting Jesus Christ. They will be free to choose for themselves, but with the absence of all the cultural and political baggage they had to live with during their mortalities. And of course, those who never heard of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes will be given the opportunity to receive His message before they stand before God to be judged. Finally, when it comes time for us to be resurrected, all will have had the chance to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and those who refused will have had to pay the consequences for their own sins. This is when the majority will finally be accepted into Heaven and the remaining few banished from God's glory forever.

So if God wants to forgive a Christian or a Jew or an Atheist, it is for God to decide. After all, we are just humans with lots of errors. But then again, we should not be ignorant. God is more likely to forgive someone who seeks for truth than someone who is just completely ignorant or even acting repulsive to the truth.

I can go along with that 100%.

 

[Endless]

At the end of the day my opinion is that of Jesus:

Mt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Few find the way which leads to life, sadly. Many have followed and are following the wide path to destruction - which is hell. They will end up there, having missed the narrow and harder way.
Jesus only talks of two destinations heaven and hell - he also talks of paradise which is likely to be a reference to heaven. There's no inbetween mentioned - no different levels of heaven.

The Bible also mentions what happens to those who have not known about Christ and have died.

 

[Squirt]

Few find the way which leads to life, sadly. Many have followed and are following the wide path to destruction - which is hell. They will end up there, having missed the narrow and harder way.

Man, I'm glad I said earlier that I didn't care if this thread stayed on topic, because it certainly hasn't.

You seem to see everything in terms of black and white; I don't think it's going to be quite as cut and dried as you do. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." You are saying that very few will find the way which leads to life and yet this verse tells us that all shall be made alive. Either my example contradicts yours or else there is more to the meaning of these scriptures than immediately meets the eye. I, too, believe that few will find the way to life, but in the context of Matthew 7:13, I see the word "life" as referring to Life Eternal in the presence of God Himself, or "Exaltation," which is the greatest glory God can give to men. I think it is not at all unlikely that relatively few will be deemed worthy for this great honor. On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 15:22 describes the fact that all will ultimately be resurrected. Since the only sin God has said He will not forgive is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, I believe that only a small minority will be banished to Hell, or Outer Darkness forever.

Jesus only talks of two destinations heaven and hell - he also talks of paradise which is likely to be a reference to heaven. There's no inbetween mentioned - no different levels of heaven.

Actually, Jesus' references to "Hell" are actually very few. He speaks frequently, however, of Heaven. He isn't recorded as having specifically mentioned different levels within Heaven, but Paul did, and so did Stephen. Stephen, in fact, mentioned "the third heaven." Whether he was referring to a distinctly separate heaven or a degree of glory (or a "level of heaven," as you say) is not clear. But it ought to be clear to anyone who thinks at all logically about the subject, that if there is a third heaven, there is also a second and third heaven. As to Paradise being Heaven, it's not. Jesus told the man on the cross next to Him that He would see him on that day in Paradise. And yet three days later, on Easter morning, He told Mary not to touch Him because He hadn't yet returned to Heaven to be with His Father.

The Bible also mentions what happens to those who have not known about Christ and have died.

Okay, let's talk about this. Do you want to start?

 

[JillianMarie77]

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him.

Are there people who believe this god exists and detest him? I think those are few and far between enough to be non-existent. I, personally, despise the christian god as described by those who believe in election and pre-destination. I find it cruel and disgusting (to be mild).

That said, I don't *really* believe that god exists. Make sense? So for me to say "who would worship a sadistic god like that?" is secondary to "c'mon, you don't REALLY think there's a big guy up in the sky somewhere orchastrating our existence do you?!"

:devil:

 

[Squirt]

I'd love to know what some of you think of what my fate will be. Technically, I do not accept Christ, although it is hard to disassociate oneself from an integral aspect of reality. Again, I do not see sin, therefore I have no use for a savior. What happens to lumps of flesh like me who are rather defiant about the whole thing.

:help:

Well, I always hesitate to play God. You see, my God doesn't like us doing that.

But, since you asked... I'll start by saying that this life is only part of what we'll be judged on. First off, you're going to have to play along with me. For the sake of argument, you'll need to pretend that you actually do have an immortal spirit. When you die, your spirit leaves your body but does not cease to exist. Your spirit is a unique, cognizant entity that has the ability to think, feel, learn and make decisions. For whatever reason, you don't believe in Jesus Christ or accept the fact that you need a Savior. I don't know why, because I don't know anything about your background or life experiences. But I think it's safe to say that these things have all contributed in some way to your lack of faith in God. They are a part of your mortal existence, but they won't be a part of the existence your spirit has after death. You'll be able to see spiritual truths with a clearer perspective than you do now. Missing pieces of the puzzle will fall into place and you will be in a better position to recognize that (1) there is sin, (2) you do need a Savior, and (3) your Savior is none other than Jesus Christ. To make a long story short, God wants you to accept Him and He will offer you every conceivable opportunity to do so. If you do, the possibilities for you in Heaven will be limitless. If you don't, you will still go to heaven, but with a lesser reward than you might have otherwise had. In either case, you will avoid Hell because, regardless of your beliefs, you a a good person and worth a whole lot to God. He didn't allow His Only Begotten Son to die just so that He could condemn you to an eternity of suffering.

To me, that's how a truly loving Father in Heaven works.

 

[Squirt]

Are there people who believe this god exists and detest him? I think those are few and far between enough to be non-existent. I, personally, despise the christian god as described by those who believe in election and pre-destination. I find it cruel and disgusting (to be mild).

Well the "Christian" God I believe in has not pre-destined anyone to either salvation or damnation. I think He loves all of us and wants very, very much to have us return to His presence, but I think that when it gets right down to it, He'd lose us before He forced us to accept Him.

That said, I don't *really* believe that god exists. Make sense? So for me to say "who would worship a sadistic god like that?" is secondary to "c'mon, you don't REALLY think there's a big guy up in the sky somewhere orchastrating our existence do you?!"

:devil:

I understand what you're saying, but I really do believe in the big guy up in the sky. I REALLY DO.

 

[Ðanisty]

Are there people who believe this god exists and detest him? I think those are few and far between enough to be non-existent.

Oh, how I love this non-existence of mine...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm wondering how closely this view parallels with a view like mine.




In my tradition - which encourages a constant preparation for death and what happens in the afterlife - there are a few opportunities to achieve liberation and to become one with the Pure or Clear Light. We have been instructed to not fear the Light with it's sheer brilliance, because that is our true buddha-nature. However, most entities do. Many many beings are fearful of our own Light because of it's true power.



We also, in the afterlife, are shown a mirror of our actions and how others have perceived us in this lifetime. We have the opportunity to admit our rights and our wrongs, and to realize our buddha-nature through that process, as well, and to realize liberation.




My tradition DOES believe in a hell-realm, and that it is very possible to end up there after death from the karma one has accumulated in this lifetime. However, my tradition does not believe in an eternal hell. The only thing that IS eternal is buddha-nature : the Pure Light.





I have no problem and can rest easy if anyone wishes to re-define this Pure Light as "God" and that being with him is the "Heaven" that is alluded to here. The terminology may be different, and can easily be glossed over. It is intention that presides in matters of the heart. Intentions either of the individual or the collective.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[Endless]

You seem to see everything in terms of black and white; I don't think it's going to be quite as cut and dried as you do. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." You are saying that very few will find the way which leads to life and yet this verse tells us that all shall be made alive. Either my example contradicts yours or else there is more to the meaning of these scriptures than immediately meets the eye.

The answer is neither - you have probably not read the context in which Paul is writing. He is talking about physical ressurection and physical death. If you read the chapter and you will see this. Verse 21 reads:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Paul is clearly talking about ressurection from the dead when he then goes on to write....'even so in Christ shall all be made alive'. Because of what Christ did in rising from the dead - everyone will be raised from the dead - sinners and saints alike. Can i back this up with other scripture? Consider the following:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Both are ressurected, which is why Paul is teaching that all shall be made alive through Christ. This is not referring to being saved - merely to a ressurection from the dead and this is made clear in the chapter. Why else do you think that the Bible refers to people being thrown into the lake of fire as the 'second death'? Because before this they have already been ressurected and made alive again.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {hell: or, the grave}
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Actually, Jesus' references to "Hell" are actually very few. He speaks frequently, however, of Heaven. He isn't recorded as having specifically mentioned different levels within Heaven, but Paul did, and so did Stephen. Stephen, in fact, mentioned "the third heaven." Whether he was referring to a distinctly separate heaven or a degree of glory (or a "level of heaven," as you say) is not clear. But it ought to be clear to anyone who thinks at all logically about the subject, that if there is a third heaven, there is also a second and third heaven.

Actually Jesus warned people an awful lot about the dangers of hell and perishing. I think perhaps you misunderstand what the Jews understood by heaven. The first heaven was our atmosphere - what we see during the day. The second heaven was the universe or the night sky. The third heaven was the heaven that Jesus is talking about - where he is.
That is why Jesus does not talk about levels in heaven - there are none.

Ge 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Did you ever wonder why when God is creating this universe he creates the heavens? The explanation i gave is the reason why.

 

[Super Universe]

Oh, how I love this non-existence of mine...

If you detest Him, then at least you believe He exists.

 

[Ðanisty]

In my tradition - which encourages a constant preparation for death and what happens in the afterlife - there are a few opportunities to achieve liberation and to become one with the Pure or Clear Light. We have been instructed to not fear the Light with it's sheer brilliance, because that is our true buddha-nature. However, most entities do. Many many beings are fearful of our own Light because of it's true power.

It reminds me a lot of my religion except that I am not in constant preparation for death.

I have no problem and can rest easy if anyone wishes to re-define this Pure Light as "God" and that being with him is the "Heaven" that is alluded to here.

And what about if someone re-defines this Pure Light as Lucifer?

If you detest Him, then at least you believe He exists.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. I believe in him and I detest him.

 

[Super Universe]

It reminds me a lot of my religion except that I am not in constant preparation for death.

And what about if someone re-defines this Pure Light as Lucifer?

Yeah, that was kind of my point. I believe in him and I detest him.

What did He do to you for you to detest Him so? Or, more likely, what did He not do for you that you felt He should have?

 

[Ðanisty]

What did He do to you for you to detest Him so? Or, more likely, what did He not do for you that you felt He should have?

It's neither. It is not a personal issue. I never left the Christian faith because I was never a Christian in the first place. As I said earlier, I see God's actions in the bible from a different perspective than you do. From my point of view, God is petty and spoiled. It has nothing to do with my life. I've got my own guardian angel for that.

 

[pickers]

When you say that the

vast majority of mankind will go there eventually

refering to heaven, what evidence allows you to make such a statement. Nobody knows what lies ahead for anyone who follows the rightious path or not. I see myself as right and just but what does faith give us to justify such an ending

 

[Super Universe]

It's neither. It is not a personal issue. I never left the Christian faith because I was never a Christian in the first place. As I said earlier, I see God's actions in the bible from a different perspective than you do. From my point of view, God is petty and spoiled. It has nothing to do with my life. I've got my own guardian angel for that.

Some day our religious thinking will evolve to the point where we all know that God is our Father and that He created the universe so that we could exist and choose the life that we want.

I see those petty things in the bible but I immediately recognize them for what they truly are. They are absolutely NOT God's wishes or directions for us. Most can be attributed to human misunderstanding and I'm sure some mistakes belong to the revelators who thought primitive humans desperately needed rules.

Why would God need or want humans to pay Him a ransom? (likely written in by religious leader who wanted to get rich)
Why would a God of love desire you to give Him a blood sacrifice? (likely written in by religious leaders who wanted food delivered to them)
Why would God go to all the trouble to create a universe for us, preach forgiveness of sin, then kill us in a flood or with fire and brimstone because we sin?
A day is not sacred to God. Rituals mean nothing.
God is not jealous of anything. He created the universe, what could He possibly be jealous of?
God does not test us, punish, or kill.

Where do you believe your guardian angel comes from?

 

[Squirt]

Thanks for the thoughts (oddly I almost wrote Katzpur... hmmm) Squirt.

What is it with me and Katzpur? You are the second person who has thought I was Katzpur. I know she was LDS, she we would obviously have a lot of shared beliefs. Whatever... I just want to know -- should I be flattered or insulted?

OK, let's muddy the waters further... and if you are game... take it from there...

1. "you'll need to pretend that you actually do have an immortal spirit"
No problemo. Being an extremist, I take it one (or two) steps further. I literally perceive myself as a soul. It is not something "I" possess, like a car. My body is jusst that. A vehicle, to carry me (the mischevious little soul) through life.
2. "these things have all contributed in some way to your lack of faith in God"
Hmmm. Well, I do believe in god already. I do not feel a need to have "faith" in god other than say, I have faith in my friends not to try to screw me around. Same difference.
3. "there is sin"
Sorry, can't do it. That is against the prime directive in my personal owner's manual. I will never, not even in front of god, admit that sin, as it is commonly conceived, even exists. Ain't gonna happen.
4. "you do need a Savior"
Hmmm. I simply do not subscribe to the concept that Jesus, the Christ died on some cross for sins I had not yet committed. Symbolically, I might tag along with the idea that this is the "death" of sin itself... otherwise, sorry, not interested in being "saved". I would not rule out having a cosmic friend though.
5. "your Savior is none other than Jesus Christ".
Well, you're sure? I believe in the reality of Jesus, the Christ and the reality of what this exhalted being represents. To me, Jesus represents the centre of the self. The heart of the soul. Jesus is symbolic of the inner self, which I might add, I already experience to a very large degree. Savior? No, not interested, as I am not into hero worship. I am not into worship in any way, shape or form actually. I am very into friends though.

Now, dear Squirt, the last aspect to flesh out, is that I have no doubt whatsover of what I have described. None. Zero, Zilch. Notta. How do I fit your scenario now? Am I a hopeless case? :biglaugh:

Well, guess what? I'm not going to comment in any more detail than to say that, according to LDS doctrine, you're still going to Heaven. To our way of thinking, there is only one way that you could conceivably avoid Heaven entirely. In order to do this, you would have to gain a perfect, first-hand knowledge of the divinity of Jesus Christ and of His power over sin (which you don't believe in anyway) and death -- and then categorically turn around and deny that knowledge. So, my dear YmirGF, more than likely you're stuck going to heaven just like pretty much everybody else.

 

[Judgement Day]

What is it with me and Katzpur? You are the second person who has thought I was Katzpur. I know she was LDS, she we would obviously have a lot of shared beliefs. Whatever... I just want to know -- should I be flattered or insulted?

I think its because your avatar is similar to hers (a cat).

Well, guess what? I'm not going to comment in any more detail than to say that, according to LDS doctrine, you're still going to Heaven. To our way of thinking, there is only one way that you could conceivably avoid Heaven entirely. In order to do this, you would have to gain a perfect, first-hand knowledge of the divinity of Jesus Christ and of His power over sin (which you don't believe in anyway) and death -- and then categorically turn around and deny that knowledge. So, my dear YmirGF, more than likely you're stuck going to heaven just like pretty much everybody else.

If we are going to heaven no matter what, then why do we need religion? I mean, why embrace a particular religion when you can go to heaven without embracing anything at all? God didnt reveal religion to us humans for nothing aint?