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Zionism

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
This represents thought taken from classic anti-Semitic libels. There is, in fact, no "conspiracy" or "dominating organization" of "Jewish bankers." The characterization of Jews as money-grubbing secretive financial manipulators is a canard that goes back to the Middle Ages, and achieved perhaps its best known form in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the infamous anti-Semitic pamphlet published by the Okhrana (the Czarist secret police).

These ideas are both entirely inaccurate and extremely offensive.

Banking and Bankers

"The majority of the English financial dealings with the continent went through the Rothschilds' offices. After the Congress of Vienna (1815) the Rothschilds extended their business into most European states, specializing in the liquidation of inflated paper currencies and in the foundation of floating public debts."

"To raise such funds these Jewish houses not only freely utilized their widespread European connections, particularly in France, England, and Germany, but created a chain of interlocking associations and directorates among themselves which enabled them quickly to mobilize sums many times larger than their individual holdings and to compete successfully with gentile firms several times their size. Not only was it common for the children and relatives of a given firm to marry each other, but marital alliances frequently occurred as well among different Jewish banking families, as was the case with the *Loebs, the *Kuhns, the *Schiffs, and the *Warburgs. Frequently too the children of such families married into families of large German-Jewish companies in a variety of other fields and the latter would then proceed to raise capital through the banking houses which they had joined. Socially, the result of such commercial and kinship ties was the creation of a German-Jewish banking and business aristocracy based in New York City whose descendants continued for over a century to play a dominant role in the financial, cultural, and political life of the American Jewish community, and to a lesser extent, of the nation at large."

Two quotes directly from the above listed link.

Why does this information, from a Jewish based source, state otherwise. Not about Jews being money grubbers secretly out to dominate the world or anything like that, you made those conclusions from statements all by yourself.

I stated that the Jewish banking institutions have loaned large sums of Money to European and American countries dating well back into the middle ages. And that these debts have created a reliance on the Jewish banking industries for for economic stability in both of these countries. I did not make any claim as to the motives for doing this, you brought those up all on your own.

I will apologize for stating that this is the reason for the creation of Israel by Great Briton after WWII, as this is just my opinion. I will however say, that the conditions created by the debt owed by the English governemnt to these Jewish banking institutions did create the conditions neccessary to allow these Jewish banking institutions to hold a large amount of influence of the decisions of the British government.

I also do not see anything inherently wrong with this. The leaders of Europe made bad financial moves and I hold the Jewish banking instituions in no way responsible for them. They were simply doing business. Business' aim are to gain power and make money and that's what they did.

I do however believe in an elite group of individuals that seek to control the world. I do not believe these people to be Jewish, and for that matter, I do not believe them to hold dear to the ideas of religious preference or ethnicity in any form whatsoever. I believe them to have existed before the modern ideas of ethnicity and religion were even formed. And while I don't agree with the motives and actions they take to control the world, I respect for them for their disregard of any type of difference, both religious and ethnic, in order to focus on thier common cause.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Telling a Jew that Israel is not his land is like telling a French guy that he is not from France, regardless of who took what and from whom.

France is not a "French guys" land. Yes he might be from there, and I will not deny that Jews are "from" Israel. But just because you are born somewhere does not mean that you have an inherent right to that land.

If a French guy was born in Israel, does that mean he has more of a right to Israel, than a Jewish guy born in France has a right to the country of France?

The Native Americans had no idea of "land ownership" before Europeans arrived. The land just was, it was not "owned" by anyone. I follow this rule, a specific piece of land is not inherently owned by any group of people.

Once you go above this basic idea that there is no ownership of land, he who has the most powerful military force controls whatever land he so pleases.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
I wasn't talking about the palestinians, I was stating a hypothetical question. And your response to that was that the cause for fighting to the death is irrelevant?

So according to your logic, fighting to the death no matter what cause you are fighting for is honorable?
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I admire anyone willing to die for what they believe in, whether I agree with their cause or not.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
France is not a "French guys" land. Yes he might be from there, and I will not deny that Jews are "from" Israel. But just because you are born somewhere does not mean that you have an inherent right to that land.

If a French guy was born in Israel, does that mean he has more of a right to Israel, than a Jewish guy born in France has a right to the country of France?

The Native Americans had no idea of "land ownership" before Europeans arrived. The land just was, it was not "owned" by anyone. I follow this rule, a specific piece of land is not inherently owned by any group of people.

Once you go above this basic idea that there is no ownership of land, he who has the most powerful military force controls whatever land he so pleases.

Exactly. I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp...
 

Juhurka

Member
France is not a "French guys" land. Yes he might be from there, and I will not deny that Jews are "from" Israel. But just because you are born somewhere does not mean that you have an inherent right to that land.

If a French guy was born in Israel, does that mean he has more of a right to Israel, than a Jewish guy born in France has a right to the country of France?.

Jews are Jews because they originated from the Kingdom Judah, you cannot put that on a scale of whos land is it with the people who were only recently brought there by force or came as conquers. Arabs would deserve more respect if they would have been honest and admit that they have a problem with Jews because they are Jews and because They have acomolished so much but no, they have to lie and claim something that is absolutly not theirs and never was.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Jews are Jews because they originated from the Kingdom Judah, you cannot put that on a scale of whos land is it with the people who were only recently brought there by force or came as conquers. Arabs would deserve more respect if they would have been honest and admit that they have a problem with Jews because they are Jews and because They have acomolished so much but no, they have to lie and claim something that is absolutly not theirs and never was.

No land "belongs" to anybody. Every inhabited inch of land on this planet has been conquered at one point or another. If we did things your way, where would we draw the line? Would you have us trace the origins of every single race/ethnic group/tribe, discover what land they inhabited at the very beginning of humankind, and divide the land accordingly? Do you even care about any other race's "native land" or are you just that strongly biased towards the Jews? Do you feel this strongly about Mongolia, Basque Country, America, Chechnya, Manchuria, so on and so on?
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I admire anyone willing to die for what they believe in, whether I agree with their cause or not.

Wow, I totally disagree with this.

So you admire pedofiles, because there is sure as hell of lot of them that have died defending their belief that it is ok to have sex with children.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
If we really wanna go back, then the only "right" to any land that any of us have by our ancestors being born their is a small stretch of land in what we now call Ethiopia. That is where all of our human ancestors came from according to modern anthropologists. How messed up would it be if everyone in the world was fighting over a small piece of land in Ethiopia?

Secondly, the only Arabs who care about the Jews being in Israel is the ones who have been brainwashed by the elite. Conflict in the Middle East accomplishes two things:

1. It drives up oil prices so oil sheiks become even richer than they already are.
2. It creates fear amongst the masses so that they are easily controlled by the eilites.

I'm sure the Rothschilds are great friends with the oil sheiks from Saudi Arabia and Iran. I highly doubt that they care that they are Arabs and Jews. Or for that matter, do you think the Bin Laden family cares that the Bush family are "infedels from the west". Hell no, they don't give a damn about what ethnicity or religion another person is as long as they both keep getting that money son.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The Native Americans had industrialization and all the conveniences that came with it to gain if they just rolled over and accepted the European conquest of the area, but that didn't stop all of them from defending their homes. I do realize some tribes chose to assimilate, but that doesn't make them any smarter or more admirable than the ones that decided to fight.
I do not know about admirable but they were most definitely not smart. It is nothing but stupidity to resist hospitals, schools, and industry especially since resistance was futile. However that has not been what we are discussing. We are not discussing Palestine's right to fight. We have been discussing whether Zionism is right.

Says you... I believe the Spartans and the Samurai were the truest warriors that ever lived. The 300 Spartans that held the Persians back at Thermopylae knew they were all going to die, yet sacrificed themselves in defense of their homes and families. I understand that the Greek eventually forced the Persians back into Asia, but the battle of Thermopylae is still considered a defeat (albeit an admirable one) by any military historian you ask. And while you may find Bushido to be "insane", I believe it to be an honorable code. If you're fighting for something you truly believe in, defeat or surrender should never even be considered as options. The samurai would die before they allowed themselves to be subjugated, and fought bravely against an army they knew to be larger and more advanced. One man's insanity is another man's greatness.
It is not the subject of the debate who's warriors are the best. Do you think your family would view pride depriving of them of their father or brother, wise? Pride is the most despicable and odious of human vice.s We are "supposed" to be discussing Israel's right to Israel.


If a foreign army were to invade my home, I would fight them to the death regardless of their motivation/intent.
That is absurd and has caused the needless death of millions. Do you think it honorable to defend Nazism to the death in a fight with a nation that supports freedom?


Killing civilians is killing civilians, whether you find the reason to be justifiable or not. There have been civilian casualties on both sides, no matter which one you choose to demonize.
That is not even a little true. Intent is a very important issue in every legal or moral action. Virtually all laws differentiate the intentional killing of the innocent with the targeting of the guiltless. War necessities the unintended death of the innocent it does not necessitate the targeting of the innocent. That was just crap.

They don't have the same fighting spirit, as was the case with the Native Americans. Some assimilated and others refused subjugation. Which of them made the "right" decision is entirely a matter of perspective.
All humans have the pride to spit in the face of anyone that offends them, it seems only the Christians have the moral fortitude to resist that vile and base compulsion.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Wow, I totally disagree with this.

So you admire pedofiles, because there is sure as hell of lot of them that have died defending their belief that it is ok to have sex with children.
I've never heard of a savage pedophile war... Enlighten me please.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
I do not know about admirable but they were most definitely not smart. It is nothing but stupidity to resist hospitals, schools, and industry especially since resistance was futile. However that has not been what we are discussing. We are not discussing Palestine's right to fight. We have been discussing whether Zionism is right.
I've already firmly established my position on Zionism. Nobody has a right to any land regardless of who their ancestors were.




That is absurd and has caused the needless death of millions. Do you think it honorable to defend Nazism to the death in a fight with a nation that supports freedom?
Yes I do, if they truly believe in Nazism and refuse to be subjugated. Nobody has the "moral authority" to tell other people how they should live, regardless if they find their way of life better. Your argument that Israeli occupation is somehow "better" than the Palestinian way of life is irrelevant.


That is not even a little true. Intent is a very important issue in every legal or moral action. Virtually all laws differentiate the intentional killing of the innocent with the targeting of the guiltless. War necessities the unintended death of the innocent it does not necessitate the targeting of the innocent. That was just crap.
I would hardly call it "unintentional". Do the Israelis make every effort to evacuate these buildings before they demolish them? I highly doubt it.

All humans have the pride to spit in the face of anyone that offends them, it seems only the Christians have the moral fortitude to resist that vile and base compulsion.
Pride makes us human. A man without pride is not a man at all
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I've already firmly established my position on Zionism. Nobody has a right to any land regardless of who their ancestors were. [/quote And I have already gave many categories beyond ancestry by which they have a right to the land. They have a UN mandate and a British mandate to the land. What other justification do they need?


Yes I do, if they truly believe in Nazism and refuse to be subjugated. Nobody has the "moral authority" to tell other people how they should live, regardless if they find their way of life better. Your argument that Israeli occupation is somehow "better" than the Palestinian way of life is irrelevant.
Even when the philosophy prompted the Nazis to start killing their own citizens? Are you saying that Nazis were right to defend the right to kill Jews? Or were right to kill those who wished to stop it or the euthanasia of the week or the medical experiments on Children? or even when it had driven them to invade others? Is there anything so immoral that defending it is unjust to you? Man you are really out there.

I would hardly call it "unintentional". Do the Israelis make every effort to evacuate these buildings before they demolish them? I highly doubt it.
How are they supposed to evacuate a hospital used to fire rockets at them that is in Gaza? If they did attempt to you would yell they had no right to invade or at least most of the Palestinian supporters would. I think predicting what you would do is meaningless.

Pride makes us human. A man without pride is not a man at all
If you wish to view the worst of sins as a virtue that is your right I guess. However it sure is depressing to see.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
And I have already gave many categories beyond ancestry by which they have a right to the land. They have a UN mandate and a British mandate to the land. What other justification do they need?
Again, it's not the fact that they hold the land that bothers me. It's the fact that they feel they must justify it. If the Israelis would just admit to being conquerors and let go of the pretentious claim that have some right (God-given, ancestral, or otherwise) to the land I would have no issues at all. I don't know how many times I have to say that.


Even when the philosophy prompted the Nazis to start killing their own citizens? Are you saying that Nazis were right to defend the right to kill Jews? Or were right to kill those who wished to stop it or the euthanasia of the week or the medical experiments on Children? or even when it had driven them to invade others? Is there anything so immoral that defending it is unjust to you? Man you are really out there.
I didn't say I agree with their ideals or find them in the right. I said it is admirable that someone would die fighting for something they believe in, regardless of the cause. And again, I don't believe in morals; if I don't agree with something I won't take part in it. I don't believe it's my place to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do. People sure do love putting words in my mouth...

How are they supposed to evacuate a hospital used to fire rockets at them that is in Gaza? If they did attempt to you would yell they had no right to invade or at least most of the Palestinian supporters would. I think predicting what you would do is meaningless.
I never said I was a Palestinian supporter, in fact I've told you I'm not already. And I certainly wouldn't object to evacuating civilians from a hospital that's about to be leveled. You're right, it is meaningless to predict what I would do. You've failed conclusively so far...

If you wish to view the worst of sins as a virtue that is your right I guess. However it sure is depressing to see.
I don't view the "seven deadly sins" as sins at all; I think they are the seven qualities that most define us as human. I've proudly been "guilty" of all of them at one point or another, and actually have them tattooed on me as a testament to my humanity.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I never once picked a side, I said neither side has an unalienable right to the land. How is that being biased or unreasonable?


Never once did I say a Jew born in Israel isn't native to the land... Don't put words in my mouth. You're also putting words in my mouth if you're suggesting I said the Israelis should give the land back. I'm not sure you completely understand my stance, even though I've explained it multiple times.


I'm not doubting their ancestral heritage. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Just as it doesn't matter how the "Filistinians" came to be on the land. The Caliphate took the land, and now it belongs to Israel again. Nobody had more of a right to the land, the strongest army will just hold on to it.

I'm talking about people who aren't native to the land. Being Jewish doesn't change your ancestry, it just makes you Jewish.

Please explain this statement then. Obviously you are confused because you deny ancestral heritage then accept it if a Jew is born in China. No sense is being made here
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Please explain this statement then. Obviously you are confused because you deny ancestral heritage then accept it if a Jew is born in China. No sense is being made here
I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I said following a religion does not change your ancestry, and even if it did, ancestral heritage doesn't give you a right to anything.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
I do not know about admirable but they were most definitely not smart. It is nothing but stupidity to resist hospitals, schools, and industry especially since resistance was futile. However that has not been what we are discussing. We are not discussing Palestine's right to fight. We have been discussing whether Zionism is right.

It is not the subject of the debate who's warriors are the best. Do you think your family would view pride depriving of them of their father or brother, wise? Pride is the most despicable and odious of human vice.s We are "supposed" to be discussing Israel's right to Israel.


That is absurd and has caused the needless death of millions. Do you think it honorable to defend Nazism to the death in a fight with a nation that supports freedom?


That is not even a little true. Intent is a very important issue in every legal or moral action. Virtually all laws differentiate the intentional killing of the innocent with the targeting of the guiltless. War necessities the unintended death of the innocent it does not necessitate the targeting of the innocent. That was just crap.

All humans have the pride to spit in the face of anyone that offends them, it seems only the Christians have the moral fortitude to resist that vile and base compulsion.

Although I agree with most of the statements in between your first and last statements, those two statements almost entirely dismiss the credibility of everything you said in between them.

So you call the Native Americans stupid for resisting European Colonialsism. Do you honestly believe that Native Americans did not have places of learning, healing centers, and industry before Europeans arrived. European hospitals were only needed because Europeans brought European diseases. Schools were only needed because Europeans forced their own type of Education on Native Americans. And is for industry, I see many things industry has done to negatively affect the world including pollution, exploitation of common people, disease, and to many other things to list. The only thing I can think of that industry has done positively is make a few individuals rich.

And to say that Christians don't spit in the face of people of people who believe differently then them is laughable. Do you know how many people have been killed innocently in the name of Christianity?
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
I'm not saying there is, but if there was would you support them?
I never said I support anybody's ideals. I said the fact that they would fight to the death for them is admirable. Admiring someone and agreeing with them are two entirely different things. I think Hitler was a military genius and admire the charisma he displayed in getting so many people to follow him, but I don't agree with what he was trying to accomplish. Do you see the difference?
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I said following a religion does not change your ancestry, and even if it did, ancestral heritage doesn't give you a right to anything.

??? I am not talking about religion :biglaugh: I am talking about an ethnicity. Being a Jew is more then following Judaism. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion I am referring to a religion. I despise religion of all things! :D
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
??? I am not talking about religion :biglaugh: I am talking about an ethnicity. Being a Jew is more then following Judaism. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion I am referring to a religion. I despise religion of all things! :D
A Chinese person converted to Judaism is only a Jew by religion, not ancestry. That was my point in my original statement, and I thought I made that pretty clear. I never said you were referring to a religion. It seems everyone on this thread loves telling me what my opinions are, but never comprehend (nor want to, for that matter) what I'm actually saying.
 
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