Zionism

[Shermana]

I understand why someone being from Israel, regardless of their religion or racial makeup, would identify as Israeli. I am a mix of all kinds of different races, but if I was outside the country and someone asked me "what I am", my first answer would be American. What I don't understand is how a religion can carry over the same standards. No other religion does this. Why the special exception for Jews?

From what I understand, it used to be considered that a convert was a "Righteous Stranger" and not necessarily the same "Stock" as an Israelite-gene-carrying Israelite. This religious change up from "Righteous stranger" to "Full fledged Israelite" seems to have been a later ruling, from which I'm not exactly sure, but perhaps to placate a growing liberalism-mindset, perhaps in the "Enlightenment" period. If it were the case that it was always considered such, the High Priest would have no problem marrying a Convert. But they can't. (And in Orthodox Judaism, regular Cohen who marry convert women lose their status as priests and their children aren't considered priests). So thus, there's a few glaring holes in this philosophy and these holes become problematic when discussing the broad stream of ethnic ties to lands.

As you can see, the "religious" explanation of what is a Jew has some unavoidable pit falls which only the "Evil racist" argument can fill in.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It's actually not unique. Think about it a little like, say, being a Navajo. It is possible, though very rare, for people to be adopted into the Navajo nation. But to really be Navajo, you need to speak Navajo, to think like a Navajo, to know their stories and rituals, and to live a truly Navajo life, you need to live in Dinetah (the Navajo homeland area). Being a Navajo is not just a matter of blood and clans, it's a matter of worldview, a matter of not only political and cultural identity but also philosophical and spiritual identity.

By the same token, to participate fully in Jewish identity is more than blood: it's knowing Jewish stories and rituals-- our texts, our laws, our traditions-- thinking like a Jew, speaking the Jewish language (Hebrew) and/or those related to it (Aramaic, or one of the many Hebrew creole languages). It's having a Jewish worldview.

There are other major world religions that have at least partial elements of this: Islam or Hinduism, say, where one needs to really embrace the worldview that goes along with the religious cultural tradition, one needs to learn one or more other languages to participate fully and deeply, and one needs to establish connections to holy places sacred to the culture. Judaism is like this, only more so-- sometimes much more so.

It's not unique, it's just not how Westerners tend to be accustomed to thinking about identity. Rare, maybe, but not unique. And it's a recognized phenomenon.

The concept of identity and culture in exile is one that the Tibetans are working very hard at right now. There's actually a great book called The Jew In The Lotus, by Rodger Kamenetz, that describes how a delegation of Jewish spiritual leaders went to Dharamsala to help the Dalai Lama learn how Jews have persevered, preserved their cultural and religious integrity, and managed to return to the homeland they lost so long ago.

I understand the sentiment now (thanks for your in-depth explanation), though I still don't completely agree with the statement that it changes the convert's ethnicity.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

From what I understand, it used to be considered that a convert was a "Righteous Stranger" and not necessarily the same "Stock" as an Israelite-gene-carrying Israelite. This religious change up from "Righteous stranger" to "Full fledged Israelite" seems to have been a later ruling, from which I'm not exactly sure, but perhaps to placate a growing liberalism-mindset, perhaps in the "Enlightenment" period. If it were the case that it was always considered such, the High Priest would have no problem marrying a Convert. But they can't. (And in Orthodox Judaism, regular Cohen who marry convert women lose their status as priests and their children aren't considered priests). So thus, there's a few glaring holes in this philosophy and these holes become problematic when discussing the broad stream of ethnic ties to lands.

As you can see, the "religious" explanation of what is a Jew has some unavoidable pit falls which only the "Evil racist" argument can fill in.

So priests still can't marry converts?

 

[Shermana]

So priests still can't marry converts?

That is correct. Therefore, the argument that converts are "Just as Jewish" is a bit misleading.

 

[Curious George]

That is correct. Therefore, the argument that converts are "Just as Jewish" is a bit misleading.

Can they marry the child of converts, if the child was born after they converted?

 

[Shermana]

Can they marry the child of converts, if the child was born after they converted?

Orthodox Halachic Law does allow a COhen to marry the daughter of a convert if the Father has the Israelite-gene-link, but not if both parents are converts. Still a genetic link required.

The Shulchan Aruch (Even Ha'ezer 7: 21) states that a cohen may marry the daughter of a convert woman, if the woman alone is the convert. However, he may not marry the child of a union in which both the mother and father are converts.

Cohen's Marriage | Ask the Rabbi - Yeshiva.org.il

 

[Levite]

That is correct. Therefore, the argument that converts are "Just as Jewish" is a bit misleading.

Doesn't actually have anything to do with "how Jewish" they are. Kohanim (priests) also can't marry divorcees, or women released from levirate marriage, or a woman who is the daughter of an improper kohanic marriage, or a woman who has experienced forbidden sexual relations; and in all those cases, it is just as true if the woman is Jewish by birth.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Orthodox Halachic Law does allow a COhen to marry the daughter of a convert if the Father has the Israelite-gene-link, but not if both parents are converts. Still a genetic link required.



Cohen's Marriage | Ask the Rabbi - Yeshiva.org.il

Sounds kinda racist and indicative of the superiority complex I mentioned earlier...

 

[Rakhel]

Sounds kinda racist and indicative of the superiority complex I mentioned earlier...

I wouldn't say racist. Superiority complex miiiiiight come close

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I wouldn't say racist. Superiority complex miiiiiight come close

ethnicity-ist? religion-ist? Don't know the proper word there, but some form of discriminatory. I dunno, saying a priest can't marry someone implies that they are somehow impure or inferior.

 

[Shermana]

Sounds kinda racist and indicative of the superiority complex I mentioned earlier...

Personally I wish we would just admit it and stop pretending we aren't and just flat out admit that we have an exclusivist mindset and that our population has a definite, undeniable genetic/"Racial" factor. Especially the "religion" element. The whole Hitler thing has got people afraid of anything he agreed with, might as well not be vegetarian or anti-tobacco too! And the whole Liberalism thing I mentioned doesn't help. The more we deny our ethnic basis, the more we deny our secular tie to the land.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Personally I wish we would just admit it and stop pretending we aren't and just flat out admit that we have an exclusivist mindset and that our population has a definite, undeniable genetic/"Racial" factor. Especially the "religion" element. The whole Hitler thing has got people afraid of anything he agreed with, might as well not be vegetarian or anti-tobacco too! And the whole Liberalism thing I mentioned doesn't help. The more we deny our ethnic basis, the more we deny our secular tie to the land.

I agree 100%. I've changed my stance, Shermana. You alone deserve the land of Israel, nobody else lol

 

[Shermana]

I agree 100%. I've changed my stance, Shermana. You alone deserve the land of Israel, nobody else lol

I'll need some hot Israeli women to populate with, and we'll need a few other Alpha males for genetic diversity from there for the daughters. Maybe import some more women for the sons.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I'll need some hot Israeli women to populate with, and we'll need a few other Alpha males for genetic diversity from there.

If you've got the hot Israeli women, convert me and we'll make an event of it :yes:

 

[Shermana]

If you've got the hot Israeli women, convert me and we'll make an event of it :yes:

Okay, but do understand your offspring have no hope of marrying Cohens.

Wait.

I just contradicted myself or revealed that I'm not sharing the hot Jewish women....

Nevermind.

 

[Shermana]

I might need some Elite Bodyguards too.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Okay, but do understand your offspring have no hope of marrying Cohens.

Wait.

I just contradicted myself or revealed that I'm not sharing the hot Jewish women....

Nevermind.

You realize you've just started the conflict over again, don't you? Surrender the hot Jewish women or lose your land.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Beautiful women with assault rifles... These Zionists might actually be onto something...

 

[Shermana]

You realize you've just started the conflict over again, don't you? Surrender the hot Jewish women or lose your land.

Never! We're gonna have to have a two-state solution where you keep the females who don't want me, or integrate into one state where you follow my rules and get the women I don't want. Otherwise...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Never! We're gonna have to have a two-state solution where you keep the females who don't want me, or integrate into one state where you follow my rules and get the women I don't want. Otherwise...

Just give me the girl on the left in the first picture first girl in the second picture and we'll call it even. Unless of course you wanna add the one in the last picture as a gesture of good faith...