Zionism

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Sorry, I gave it a shot. Hoping that perhaps out of the thousand and one people starting a thread on Zionism, supposedly for an honest discussion one would actually be up for the challenge. But there is just too much demagogy, assumptions and straw men in your posts that I have nothing to work with.

Your generalizations that Jews consider themselves to be 'holy warriors on a divine mission' are tiresome and over dramatic. The Jews are perhaps the most secularized society in their region. The average Israeli Jew has no aspirations for martyrdom, or holy war. Your insistence of comparing the Nazi genocide against the Jews to an on going conflict with two sides, including numerous wars between conventional armies and a semi-autonomous Palestinian entity is equally tiresome. And your further insistence or rather obsession with the racial identity of Ashkenazi Jews all leave no room for an honest or constructive discussion.

You already have your self constructed arguments and you have already decided on the outcome of the debate.

Oh, well. Till the next Zionism thread, and the next member.

By the same token, you won't change your assertion that I'm set in my ways until I agree with you. We both knew coming into this conversation that neither one of us was going to change the other's mind. The purpose was to express our opinions, not to come to a middle ground.

 

[Flankerl]

The whole "children of God" thing really gets to me too. I find it beyond pretentious. The Jews bleed like we do; nothing makes them less insignificant than the rest of us.

So you have no idea what its actually about. Good for you.

Being adopted into a group you have no actual genealogical ties to does not change your genetic makeup. The truth is, not every European Jew has Israelite ancestors. Are Angelina Jolie's adopted African children white now?

Why exactly should the thousands of years old jewish law give a crap about your few hundreds of years old idea of who belongs to a certain kind of people/nation?


Kids these days...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

So you have no idea what its actually about. Good for you.

Aren't we all "children of god"? Please explain to me what makes the Jews THE "children of god", if not some implication of superiority.

Why exactly should the thousands of years old jewish law give a crap about your few hundreds of years old idea of who belongs to a certain kind of people/nation?

You're avoiding the question. If European Jews are considered ethnically Jewish, is a black child adopted by a white family considered white? If not, why the special exception?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Thread had so much potential. But sadly it the ideology to denounce Zionism is as sad as possible.

I am a proud Zionist Deist (yes I said it) and as of now I have become more confident in my stance

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Thread had so much potential. But sadly it the ideology to denounce Zionism is as sad as possible.

I am a proud Zionist Deist (yes I said it) and as of now I have become more confident in my stance

How is condemnation of a pretentious claim to birthright sad?

 

[Sha'irullah]

How is condemnation of a pretentious claim to birthright sad?

You do not know Zionism then. Birthright means nothing and that is just religious claim.
I am talking about the fact the land belonged to the Jews first and it is a result of Arab(Filistinians involved) conquest which has long since expelled the Jews from it.
During the solidification of nations int he Middle East the Arabian territories united and had long since prevented Jewish occupation. The Jews were the keep holders of the Tawrat which was the Qur'an copied from. I find it funny that the interactions between Muslims and Jews was heavily suppressed . Key secret is ethnic suppression.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You do not know Zionism then. Birthright means nothing and that is just religious claim.
I am talking about the fact the land belonged to the Jews first and it is a result of Arab(Filistinians involved) conquest which has long since expelled the Jews from it.
During the solidification of nations int he Middle East the Arabian territories united and had long since prevented Jewish occupation. The Jews were the keep holders of the Tawrat which was the Qur'an copied from. I find it funny that the interactions between Muslims and Jews was heavily suppressed . Key secret is ethnic suppression.

Birthright has nothing to do with religion, it's about blood/ethnic entitlement, which is exactly what you're describing in bold above. Divine right would imply that God chose the land of Israel for the Jews.

I see no huge outcry for the return of Native American land or support for Basque separatist groups. Nobody cares about separating Mongolia or Manchuria from China. Yet we're all expected to respect the Jews' right to Israel or we're branded anti-Semites... Do you not see the smallest hint of hypocrisy there?

 

[Flankerl]

Aren't we all "children of god"? Please explain to me what makes the Jews THE "children of god", if not some implication of superiority.

lol so you really never even cared to look into it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people

You're avoiding the question. If European Jews are considered ethnically Jewish, is a black child adopted by a white family considered white? If not, why the special exception?

Actually iam not avoiding the question. The whole concep of white, black, yellow and what not has no meaning to judaism.
There are jews, gentiles and thats about it. A jew and a gentile might be righteous or not but it doesnt have anything to do with their status.

So if i happen to adopt a chinese female baby and bring it into the jewish people its a jewish girl.


Again our way is thousands of years old kiddo. Why should your racial new way be the right thing?

 

[Tarheeler]

Since the terms are getting thrown around so much, I thought I'd inject some actual sources:

"Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:

DEMONIZE ISRAEL:
Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions

DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations

DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist

This is taken from the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia, and has been cited by the EU, UN, and US government.
Defining Anti-Semitism
Working Definition of Antisemitism.*European Forum on Antisemitism
Contemporary Global Anti-Semitism:A Report Provided to the United States Congress


Zionism, simply put, is the movement to establish a Jewish homeland in order to allow the Jewish people self-determination and to provide a safe-haven from anti-Semitism. Since the creation of Israel, it has been expanded to include the defense of Israel.
Zionism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Zionism - definition of Zionism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Zionism | Define Zionism at Dictionary.com


Ethnicity is a very broad classification that can be based on any number of criteria. The key is that the members of the group feel like part of a group and have a shared identity. It is not the same thing as race.

Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category based on common cultural heritage, shared ancestry, history, homeland, language or dialect, and possibly other aspects such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.

Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ethnicity vs Race - Difference and Comparison | Diffen
Ethnic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Ethnicity | Define Ethnicity at Dictionary.com
RACE - The Power of an Illusion . Ask the Experts | PBS

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Actually iam not avoiding the question. The whole concep of white, black, yellow and what not has no meaning to judaism.
There are jews, gentiles and thats about it. A jew and a gentile might be righteous or not but it doesnt have anything to do with their status.

So if i happen to adopt a chinese female baby and bring it into the jewish people its a jewish girl.


Again our way is thousands of years old kiddo. Why should your racial new way be the right thing?

All of this and you still have yet to answer the question I asked specifically. Also, it was believed for centuries that the world was flat and the sun revolved around it. Being an old idea doesn't necessarily make it more right...

 

[Sha'irullah]

All of this and you still have yet to answer the question I asked specifically. Also, it was believed for centuries that the world was flat and the sun revolved around it. Being an old idea doesn't necessarily make it more right...

being native to a land is not an idea. I have an idea to be a Turk in 1400 AD but it ain't happening

 

[Levite]

Since the terms are getting thrown around so much, I thought I'd inject some actual sources:



This is taken from the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia, and has been cited by the EU, UN, and US government.
Defining Anti-Semitism
Working Definition of Antisemitism.*European Forum on Antisemitism
Contemporary Global Anti-Semitism:A Report Provided to the United States Congress


Zionism, simply put, is the movement to establish a Jewish homeland in order to allow the Jewish people self-determination and to provide a safe-haven from anti-Semitism. Since the creation of Israel, it has been expanded to include the defense of Israel.
Zionism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Zionism - definition of Zionism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Zionism | Define Zionism at Dictionary.com


Ethnicity is a very broad classification that can be based on any number of criteria. The key is that the members of the group feel like part of a group and have a shared identity. It is not the same thing as race.

Ethnic group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ethnicity vs Race - Difference and Comparison | Diffen
Ethnic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Ethnicity | Define Ethnicity at Dictionary.com
RACE - The Power of an Illusion . Ask the Experts | PBS

I would frubal this if I could. Excellent post.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

being native to a land is not an idea. I have an idea to be a Turk in 1400 AD but it ain't happening

I'm talking about people who aren't native to the land. Being Jewish doesn't change your ancestry, it just makes you Jewish. Yes you can consider a Chinese Jew ethnically Jewish, but if your argument is that the Jews were the first people of Israel, and thus deserve to have their rightful land back, what gives the people with no ancestral ties to the land the same right?

 

[Shermana]

what gives the people with no ancestral ties to the land the same right?

The grand bulk of Jews have a genetic link to the ancient Israelites, very very few Jews today are the descendents of a pair of converts without a direct Israelite link in the chain. There are probably twice or more converts today than ever cumulatively in Jewish history.

 

[Levite]

I'm talking about people who aren't native to the land. Being Jewish doesn't change your ancestry, it just makes you Jewish. Yes you can consider a Chinese Jew ethnically Jewish, but if your argument is that the Jews were the first people of Israel, and thus deserve to have their rightful land back, what gives the people with no ancestral ties to the land the same right?

Judaism is not purely a religion in the sense that, say, Christianity is a religion, without tie to culture or ethnic heritage. Judaism is, technically, a socioreligious ethnicity: an identity that comprises elements of religion, nationality, and cultural/ethnic relationships.

And, as I mentioned before, anyone who converts to be Jewish is adopted into the ancestral group. They have the same right to the Jewish homeland as anyone born to Jewish parents: their "ancestry," if you will, is considered changed.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Judaism is not purely a religion in the sense that, say, Christianity is a religion, without tie to culture or ethnic heritage. Judaism is, technically, a socioreligious ethnicity: an identity that comprises elements of religion, nationality, and cultural/ethnic relationships.

And, as I mentioned before, anyone who converts to be Jewish is adopted into the ancestral group. They have the same right to the Jewish homeland as anyone born to Jewish parents: their "ancestry," if you will, is considered changed.

I understand why someone being from Israel, regardless of their religion or racial makeup, would identify as Israeli. I am a mix of all kinds of different races, but if I was outside the country and someone asked me "what I am", my first answer would be American. What I don't understand is how a religion can carry over the same standards. No other religion does this. Why the special exception for Jews?

 

[Rakhel]

strange thing my daughter said the other day.
We were in our car, eating ice cream from Dairy Queen, when she asked, "What are we? Americans?"
It seemed to be a nonsensical question, she is 7 after all. She knew where we were(in New Jersey), knows she was born in this country(Arkansas to be precise) and knows what country this is.

But thinking about your post, it does make me wonder. Anyone in the Western Hemisphere could be considered an American. Even people from Brazil could claim to be "American" because they are, after all, in South America.

We have Latin Americans who identify as Latin Americans, Polish Americans who claim Polish- American. We have Greek Americans who claim their Greekness(not a word, I know, but I like it).

We also have Puerto Ricans who live in this country, are citizens by right and yet upon first question, will not claim to be American, even though they have that right, but will call themselves, you guessed, it Puerto Ricans. Every other ethnocentric group usually identifies with their geography of origin before calling themselves American. Even those from the Caribbean will state that they are from ______ before they call themselves American.This applies to second and third generations.
Why are Jews not allowed this same comfort?

 

[Levite]

I understand why someone being from Israel, regardless of their religion or racial makeup, would identify as Israeli. I am a mix of all kinds of different races, but if I was outside the country and someone asked me "what I am", my first answer would be American. What I don't understand is how a religion can carry over the same standards. No other religion does this. Why the special exception for Jews?

It's actually not unique. Think about it a little like, say, being a Navajo. It is possible, though very rare, for people to be adopted into the Navajo nation. But to really be Navajo, you need to speak Navajo, to think like a Navajo, to know their stories and rituals, and to live a truly Navajo life, you need to live in Dinetah (the Navajo homeland area). Being a Navajo is not just a matter of blood and clans, it's a matter of worldview, a matter of not only political and cultural identity but also philosophical and spiritual identity.

By the same token, to participate fully in Jewish identity is more than blood: it's knowing Jewish stories and rituals-- our texts, our laws, our traditions-- thinking like a Jew, speaking the Jewish language (Hebrew) and/or those related to it (Aramaic, or one of the many Hebrew creole languages). It's having a Jewish worldview.

There are other major world religions that have at least partial elements of this: Islam or Hinduism, say, where one needs to really embrace the worldview that goes along with the religious cultural tradition, one needs to learn one or more other languages to participate fully and deeply, and one needs to establish connections to holy places sacred to the culture. Judaism is like this, only more so-- sometimes much more so.

It's not unique, it's just not how Westerners tend to be accustomed to thinking about identity. Rare, maybe, but not unique. And it's a recognized phenomenon.

The concept of identity and culture in exile is one that the Tibetans are working very hard at right now. There's actually a great book called The Jew In The Lotus, by Rodger Kamenetz, that describes how a delegation of Jewish spiritual leaders went to Dharamsala to help the Dalai Lama learn how Jews have persevered, preserved their cultural and religious integrity, and managed to return to the homeland they lost so long ago.

 

[PastorClark]

I did. One pays your bills and the other doesn't.

You're avoiding the question, i'm asking you, what makes paper money more valuable then writing paper.

I'm 3rd degree Vzrosily Razryad in Combat Sambo; you might lose the use of some of your own limbs in the process, but you're more than welcome to try. No magical force would scream out "you have no right!" and stop you from attempting to take my arms; if you're strong enough they're yours.

Getting defensive are we? I do hope you know that comment was just figurative. But seeing how such of a intelligent guy you are, i'm sure you are very aware of the differences between figurative and literal languages. If you wasn't trying to act like a Mr tough guy, you wouldn't even bring your personal skill goal in the mixed. Which had no relevant to my question whatsoever. And before you say i have been off topic, I've been on topic since the beginning of my first post.

If this statement you made doesn't show you how ridiculous your logic is I don't know what will. At this point I'm done arguing with you because you haven't had a single intelligent thing to say.

How can the single-celled bacteria come before the rock, by our scientific understanding this can't be true. Since the Earth was nothing but a molten ball of lava, and having temperatures of about 1200C. I don't see no known bacteria surviving temperatures of that degree.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You're avoiding the question, i'm asking you, what makes paper money more valuable then writing paper.

A dollar is worth 1 dollar. A piece of writing paper is worth maybe a cent, seeing as you can buy an entire notebook for a dollar. There, more value.

Getting defensive are we? I do hope you know that comment was just figurative. But seeing how such of a intelligent guy you are, i'm sure you are very aware of the differences between figurative and literal languages. If you wasn't trying to act like a Mr tough guy, you wouldn't even bring your personal skill goal in the mixed. Which had no relevant to my question whatsoever. And before you say i have been off topic, I've been on topic since the beginning of my first post.

1)You have not been on topic. The topic of this thread is Zionism, not the value of money.
2)I answered this question as well. I said there's nothing stopping you from trying. No invisible force is going to come down from the sky, scream "you have no right!" and stop you.

How can the single-celled bacteria come before the rock, by our scientific understanding this can't be true. Since the Earth was nothing but a molten ball of lava, and having temperatures of about 1200C. I don't see no known bacteria surviving temperatures of that degree.

1)You clearly have no reading comprehension. I never said bacteria came before rock. I said the fact that your argument degenerated all the way to "this planet must belong to rocks" shows you how ridiculous it is. If you feel so strongly about who this planet belongs to, you're more than welcome to leave it. I'm staying in my home until someone/something takes it from me.
2)Your spelling and grammar are actually giving me a headache now.