Zionism

[1robin]

Jewish pioneers began to work the land of Israel already in the 19th century. Legally buying land and drying swamps when Palestine was under Ottoman administration. The aftermath of WWII only came many decades later.
As for the Israeli-Palestinian issue, comparing it to the Jews in WWII has become nothing but a joke. The Jews were German and European civilians who were robbed of their civilian identity and systematically annihilated with a death tolls in the millions. On the other hand the Jews and the Arabs in Palestine competed for the land, and after the Arab rejection of sharing the land the two sides fought for it with the Arab side being backed by several armies of the Arab states. Nothing to compare to the Jews and the Nazis. In addition the death toll of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict counts at about 15,000 casualties in over 60 years Israelis and Palestinians combined. The Arabs who were later began to be defined as 'Palestinians' never administrated themselves and lived under Turkish rule, then British rule, and then Egyptian and Jordanian military rule, with those Arabs who stayed in Israel after the first Israeli-Arab war receiving Israeli citizenship from the State of Israel.
So please, check the background before you try to make demagogic statements about the Nazis, WWII, or the current unrelated Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


I always wonder what's the obsession with 'race'. Ashkenazi Jews, or European Jews have always been considered a Jewish ethnicity, so please lets not try to reinvent history when it's comfortable for us.

Just like many other dozens of Arab Muslim states were established in the aftermath of the postcolonial Middle East, the UN also allowed the creation of one Jewish state. And while there are still religious and ethnic minorities who are largely discriminated or actively persecuted in the Arab Muslim states, the Jewish state has been a new beginning of independence and self governing for Jews of various regions including Europe and the Middle East.
If we compare that the to nations around Israel, like Syria where different sects are now massacring each other, or to Lebanon were the same has been happening for decades, or Jordan where Jordanians and Palestinians fought each other in a civil war, or Egypt which has had several revolutions and still counting... then Israel is possibly the only successful postcolonial experiment in the region.

Good post

 

[1robin]

The Palestinians have a duty to refuse the mandate and fight for their homes, in my opinion. To roll over and accept an invasion because a piece of paper says you have to is extremely weak. And I have definitely heard more than a few Jews say the holocaust entitles them to a country.

EDIT: I said "right" at first, but it wasn't the right word to express my point

Even if it was some kind of contempt for an invader that drives Palestinian's to kidnap children, snipe at civilians, or mutilate bodies they are hurting themselves far more than helping themselves. Not for a moment am I admitting the armed resistance to people returning to a land Palestinians never had legal right to is valid. Their never have nor ever will cause Israel to leave, even when backed by Arab Muslim nations as they have been. Even the savage Midwestern Indians we have discussed knew when enough was enough and they had far more right to the Midwest that Palestine has for Israel. I have read the history of the Jewish homeland many times and I have never once heard holocaust used in connection with it in any other way but incidental. Actually probably the issue that drove what Britain did with the land more than any thing else is their being told to be less colonial by Roosevelt and the fact they had no desire to administer an area with little value and that erupted with violence every few months. Not that the Israel's and them alone did not make the place the Palestinians did nothing with into a trade and technological marvel. What Israel did with that land is world leading in countless categories and all with no oil as the other Arabia nations have and having to spend more on national security per person than any nation on earth.

 

[1robin]

Obama has many good intentions but the thing is he is a liberal and despite his economics which I love and his other foreign successes his social issues are by far pitiful. Liberals are more like corporations CEO's that actually have fairness but just like a corporation they have no concept of how people actually feel.

Not only has Obama violated the constitution concerning executive procedure and many other areas, spied on citizens in mass, is connected with several scandals including doing nothing (or even preventing) the rescue of Americans on foreign soil, then lying about it through his teeth, caused a net loss of 2 million jobs over almost 6 years, has states going bankrupt, and has fathered probably the worst piece of legislation in American history which is viewed negatively by approx. 70% of the citizens, but his real mistake has been spending us into the ground in amounts that are greater than all previous presidents put together with no corresponding gain of any kind. His economic policy is by far the worst in our history and may have already tipped the scales so far we will never recover even if (which will not happen) a truly responsible president is elected and the tough cuts are made.

Obama like many liberals just look at both parties and say "lets compromise". Compromising is good and Democrats have done it well over the years while Republicans are pitiful at achieving anything but this issue is something I call quackery upon.

No Obama like many liberals starts so far to the socialist left that even a compromise is a liberal nightmare.

Obama believes everybody has rights and does not draw the line on knowledge but on emotional pity. Yes I would pity a people who are oppressed.................until I dig through history and find out THEY ARE THE OPPRESSORS!
Obama knows nothing on Israeli history and this may have been a result of his schooling in Indonesia. Obama was never a Muslim and took after his mother while his fathers were more of a mystery to him. Without a doubt some of his views possibly result from this.
He sympathizes with both parties sadly.

I do not believe Obama is a Muslim nor a Christian. I think he will claim to be whatever is most advantageous at the moment. However his role on Israeli policy is abhorrent and in my view could possibly bring down even more of God's wrath on this nation that out moral erosion already has. However this is not a political thread so I will try and leave this here.

 

[Sha'irullah]

[youtube]0N84iJOos1s[/youtube]

here are some words by a true idiot on the Israeli issues. . His only complaint is that the Jews exist

 

[1robin]

[youtube]0N84iJOos1s[/youtube]

here are some words by a true idiot on the Israeli issues. . His only complaint is that the Jews exist

I wish I could see it. I am on a DOD server and can't view video. However how dare the Jews have the audacity to exist, who do they think they are, the children of God or something (wait a minute)?

 

[Sha'irullah]

I wish I could see it. I am on a DOD server and can't view video. However how dare the Jews have the audacity to exist, who do they think they are, the children of God or something (wait a minute)?

:biglaugh:. You say children of god and I say children of primates. Regardless it is their land.....and I mean ALL of it is their land. The thought that Jews must roll over and be subjugated by a pack of inhumane barbarians offends me greatly. This is not a matter of religion but a matter of people. Filistinians have o right to even declare an ounce of Jewish soil their's.

 

[1robin]

:biglaugh:. You say children of god and I say children of primates. Regardless it is their land.....and I mean ALL of it is their land. The thought that Jews must roll over and be subjugated by a pack of inhumane barbarians offends me greatly. This is not a matter of religion but a matter of people. Filistinians have o right to even declare an ounce of Jewish soil theirs.

Those Children of Primates are outnumbered by other children of primates by 20 - 1 or worse and even when the had a grand total of three tanks, no air force, and no professional army they defeated 5 nations. When we have many prophecies like the one that claims God will ensure they are never removed from their land again they look less like primates and more like God's own when they achieve some of the most lopsided victories in history. Not to mention the miracles recorded in their own battle field reports and even a few in the enemies reports as well. I agree they also have every secular right to the land. However the secular explanation of how they got the land back and have defended it is severely lacking.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Those Children of Primates are outnumbered by other children of primates by 20 - 1 or worse and even when the had a grand total of three tanks, no air force, and no professional army they defeated 5 nations. When we have many prophecies like the one that claims God will ensure they are never removed from their land again they look less like primates and more like God's own when they achieve some of the most lopsided victories in history. Not to mention the miracles recorded in their own battle field reports and even a few in the enemies reports as well. I agree they also have every secular right to the land. However the secular explanation of how they got the land back and have defended it is severely lacking.

Secular right alone is all that is needed for them to declare their land their own. Mythical failed prophecies have no place in the domain of man and its domineering nature to conquer. Israel will exist as long as they fight for it. Peace between Filistinians and Jews is not going to occur sadly and although I wish nobody ill intent I see genocide as highly justified.
The Ummah has shown its credibility for being utterly backwards ad violent and any form of violence taken against the is without a doubt justified. War is war and the ability we have to perform it is much needed as of now.

Also being children of primates differs from being a primate itself as we have long since departed far enough from that family tree although it is debatable

 

[1robin]

Secular right alone is all that is needed for them to declare their land their own. Mythical failed prophecies have no place in the domain of man and its domineering nature to conquer. Israel will exist as long as they fight for it. Peace between Filistinians and Jews is not going to occur sadly and although I wish nobody ill intent I see genocide as highly justified.

The prophecy I gave has been fulfilled in detail over and over in our lifetime. The track record of those who attempt to show the bible wrong is not one that inspires the effort. They are either converted (Lewis, Chesterton etc...), shown to be wrong (museums are now full or artifacts from cultures the Bible said existed but secular scholars denied) and the Bible is a primary archeological resource and many times the primary text, or they are humiliated (as in Voltaire's claims Christianity would be dead in 50 years, he was and his housed used to print Bibles from). It is about the worst occupation possible.

The Ummah has shown its credibility for being utterly backwards ad violent and any form of violence taken against the is without a doubt justified. War is war and the ability we have to perform it is much needed as of now.

This one lost me a bit. However I am a veteran and do appreciate the need for a powerful army especially in these times. Nietzsche (Hitler gave a copy of his works to Mussolini and Stalin) said that since God died in the 19th century the 20th would be the bloodiest in history. It was bloodier than all others combined. He also said a general madness would prevail. Not only is that true but Nietzsche went insane. He is almost an atheist profit.

Also being children of primates differs from being a primate itself as we have long since departed far enough from that family tree although it is debatable

I do not think biology of any type can account for humanity as we observe it alone. Evolution doe snot explain the almost infinite gap in intelligence between us and the smartest primates on Earth but this is another issue.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Come on now, i'm asking you to specifies between the two.

I did. One pays your bills and the other doesn't.

So i can just go straight up to you, and proceed on cutting your legs and arms off. Because you have no rights to them, would this be correct by your logic?

I'm 3rd degree Vzrosily Razryad in Combat Sambo; you might lose the use of some of your own limbs in the process, but you're more than welcome to try. No magical force would scream out "you have no right!" and stop you from attempting to take my arms; if you're strong enough they're yours.

The planet would belong to rock, seeing that the single-celled bacteria came after the rock was formed.

If this statement you made doesn't show you how ridiculous your logic is I don't know what will. At this point I'm done arguing with you because you haven't had a single intelligent thing to say.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Even if it was some kind of contempt for an invader that drives Palestinian's to kidnap children, snipe at civilians, or mutilate bodies they are hurting themselves far more than helping themselves. Not for a moment am I admitting the armed resistance to people returning to a land Palestinians never had legal right to is valid. Their never have nor ever will cause Israel to leave, even when backed by Arab Muslim nations as they have been. Even the savage Midwestern Indians we have discussed knew when enough was enough and they had far more right to the Midwest that Palestine has for Israel. I have read the history of the Jewish homeland many times and I have never once heard holocaust used in connection with it in any other way but incidental. Actually probably the issue that drove what Britain did with the land more than any thing else is their being told to be less colonial by Roosevelt and the fact they had no desire to administer an area with little value and that erupted with violence every few months. Not that the Israel's and them alone did not make the place the Palestinians did nothing with into a trade and technological marvel. What Israel did with that land is world leading in countless categories and all with no oil as the other Arabia nations have and having to spend more on national security per person than any nation on earth.

Just because they can't win doesn't mean they shouldn't try. The prospect of defeat didn't stop the Spartans at Thermopylae, or Saigo Takamori at the battle of Shiroyama. Both of these armies knew they were outnumbered and overpowered, but chose death over subjugation. As for snipers, kidnappings, etc, Israel has also caused their fair share of civilian casualties, so don't go acting as if the Palestinians are the only ones with blood on their hands. I'm by no means saying the Palestinians are in the right; I'm completely neutral as to who has a "right" to the land. In my opinion, neither of them do. War is war, and as long as they continue this war people will die.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I wish I could see it. I am on a DOD server and can't view video. However how dare the Jews have the audacity to exist, who do they think they are, the children of God or something (wait a minute)?

The whole "children of God" thing really gets to me too. I find it beyond pretentious. The Jews bleed like we do; nothing makes them less insignificant than the rest of us.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

:biglaugh:. You say children of god and I say children of primates. Regardless it is their land.....and I mean ALL of it is their land. The thought that Jews must roll over and be subjugated by a pack of inhumane barbarians offends me greatly. This is not a matter of religion but a matter of people. Filistinians have o right to even declare an ounce of Jewish soil their's.

Neither should the Palestinians allow themselves to be subjugated by the Jews. It goes both ways, I don't see where this ridiculous bias comes from.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Neither should the Palestinians allow themselves to be subjugated by the Jews. It goes both ways, I don't see where this ridiculous bias comes from.

The Bias comes from the fact that Filistinians are claiming moral right to this area as are the Jews but only Jews have moral rights to it. Based on an argument of morality it is the Jews who hold rights to the general land. Sure anybody can conquer it but by conquering something you are not acquiring it ethically nor do you have moral superiority

 

[Caladan]

Since I.S.L.A.M617 went from post 158 to 162, skipping posts 159, 160. I'll repost them again:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

Jewish pioneers began to work the land of Israel already in the 19th century. Legally buying land and drying swamps when Palestine was under Ottoman administration. The aftermath of WWII only came many decades later.
As for the Israeli-Palestinian issue, comparing it to the Jews in WWII has become nothing but a joke. The Jews were German and European civilians who were robbed of their civilian identity and systematically annihilated with a death tolls in the millions. On the other hand the Jews and the Arabs in Palestine competed for the land, and after the Arab rejection of sharing the land the two sides fought for it with the Arab side being backed by several armies of the Arab states. Nothing to compare to the Jews and the Nazis. In addition the death toll of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict counts at about 15,000 casualties in over 60 years Israelis and Palestinians combined. The Arabs who were later began to be defined as 'Palestinians' never administrated themselves and lived under Turkish rule, then British rule, and then Egyptian and Jordanian military rule, with those Arabs who stayed in Israel after the first Israeli-Arab war receiving Israeli citizenship from the State of Israel.
So please, check the background before you try to make demagogic statements about the Nazis, WWII, or the current unrelated Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

I always wonder what's the obsession with 'race'. Ashkenazi Jews, or European Jews have always been considered a Jewish ethnicity, so please lets not try to reinvent history when it's comfortable for us.

Just like many other dozens of Arab Muslim states were established in the aftermath of the postcolonial Middle East, the UN also allowed the creation of one Jewish state. And while there are still religious and ethnic minorities who are largely discriminated or actively persecuted in the Arab Muslim states, the Jewish state has been a new beginning of independence and self governing for Jews of various regions including Europe and the Middle East.
If we compare that the to nations around Israel, like Syria where different sects are now massacring each other, or to Lebanon were the same has been happening for decades, or Jordan where Jordanians and Palestinians fought each other in a civil war, or Egypt which has had several revolutions and still counting... then Israel is possibly the only successful postcolonial experiment in the region.

You can say something belongs to you until you're blue in the face, you're not going to get it back until you fight for it... The Jews have no more right to Israel than the Japanese do. If they want Israel, they're going to have to fight to keep it; nobody is entitled to any land by birth.

I'm not sure you got the memo, the Jews have won Israel a hundred times over. After all, aren't you the one comparing a small state to the Third Reich? perhaps the most powerful empire in the history of the world?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Since I.S.L.A.M617 went from post 158 to 162, skipping posts 159, 160. I'll repost them again:

I was getting to you, don't be hasty now...

Jewish pioneers began to work the land of Israel already in the 19th century. Legally buying land and drying swamps when Palestine was under Ottoman administration. The aftermath of WWII only came many decades later.
As for the Israeli-Palestinian issue, comparing it to the Jews in WWII has become nothing but a joke. The Jews were German and European civilians who were robbed of their civilian identity and systematically annihilated with a death tolls in the millions. On the other hand the Jews and the Arabs in Palestine competed for the land, and after the Arab rejection of sharing the land the two sides fought for it with the Arab side being backed by several armies of the Arab states. Nothing to compare to the Jews and the Nazis. In addition the death toll of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict counts at about 15,000 casualties in over 60 years Israelis and Palestinians combined. The Arabs who were later began to be defined as 'Palestinians' never administrated themselves and lived under Turkish rule, then British rule, and then Egyptian and Jordanian military rule, with those Arabs who stayed in Israel after the first Israeli-Arab war receiving Israeli citizenship from the State of Israel.
So please, check the background before you try to make demagogic statements about the Nazis, WWII, or the current unrelated Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The numbers don't really matter to me. Killing and displacing people, for whatever reason, is the same thing to me. I don't see the Jews as morally superior to Nazis because they've killed less people; a duck is a duck. I would also throw the American pioneers into the same category, as well as the Arabs. Truth is, everyone has done it at one point in history and nobody has the moral superiority that the Jews pretend to. And it doesn't matter that the land never actually "belonged" to the Arabs by "right" of an official piece of paper. People are going to defend their homes from invasion and you can't expect them not to. I would never willingly leave my home for anybody to take it, and I don't expect you would either.

I always wonder what's the obsession with 'race'. Ashkenazi Jews, or European Jews have always been considered a Jewish ethnicity, so please lets not try to reinvent history when it's comfortable for us.

Being adopted into a group you have no actual genealogical ties to does not change your genetic makeup. The truth is, not every European Jew has Israelite ancestors. Are Angelina Jolie's adopted African children white now?

Just like many other dozens of Arab Muslim states were established in the aftermath of the postcolonial Middle East, the UN also allowed the creation of one Jewish state. And while there are still religious and ethnic minorities who are largely discriminated or actively persecuted in the Arab Muslim states, the Jewish state has been a new beginning of independence and self governing for Jews of various regions including Europe and the Middle East.
If we compare that the to nations around Israel, like Syria where different sects are now massacring each other, or to Lebanon were the same has been happening for decades, or Jordan where Jordanians and Palestinians fought each other in a civil war, or Egypt which has had several revolutions and still counting... then Israel is possibly the only successful postcolonial experiment in the region.

The most successful? They're in the middle of a war right now just like Syria is; don't delude yourself. We wouldn't be having this conversation if there was no conflict going on.

I'm not sure you got the memo, the Jews have won Israel a hundred times over. After all, aren't you the one comparing a small state to the Third Reich? perhaps the most powerful empire in the history of the world?

Yes they've won it; I never said they didn't. I said it wasn't theirs "by right" to begin with (nor did it belong to the Arabs "by right"). If the Israelis would just call it what it is and say they are conquerors, not some holy warriors on a divine mission to take what's rightfully theirs, I would have no problem.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The Bias comes from the fact that Filistinians are claiming moral right to this area as are the Jews but only Jews have moral rights to it. Based on an argument of morality it is the Jews who hold rights to the general land. Sure anybody can conquer it but by conquering something you are not acquiring it ethically nor do you have moral superiority

Nobody has a moral right to any land. It only belongs to you for as long as you can keep it. They lost it, and now they took it again. It's all very simple no matter how many people want to pretend it isn't.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Nobody has a moral right to any land. It only belongs to you for as long as you can keep it. They lost it, and now they took it again. It's all very simple no matter how many people want to pretend it isn't.

Not everybody is like us. Most people believe in morals and moral right to land comes with it

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Not everybody is like us. Most people believe in morals and moral right to land comes with it

Those people are delusional, and a major cause of the wars they speak out against.

 

[Caladan]

Sorry, I gave it a shot. Hoping that perhaps out of the thousand and one people starting a thread on Zionism, supposedly for an honest discussion one would actually be up for the challenge. But there is just too much demagogy, assumptions and straw men in your posts that I have nothing to work with.

Your generalizations that Jews consider themselves to be 'holy warriors on a divine mission' are tiresome and over dramatic. The Jews are perhaps the most secularized society in their region. The average Israeli Jew has no aspirations for martyrdom, or holy war. Your insistence of comparing the Nazi genocide against the Jews to an on going conflict with two sides, including numerous wars between conventional armies and a semi-autonomous Palestinian entity is equally tiresome. And your further insistence or rather obsession with the racial identity of Ashkenazi Jews all leave no room for an honest or constructive discussion.

You already have your self constructed arguments and you have already decided on the outcome of the debate.

Oh, well. Till the next Zionism thread, and the next member.