Zionism

[I.S.L.A.M617]

There has always been a Jewish presence in the Land of Israel. When the original majority of the Jewish People were forced to leave, it was not willingly. The Jews have been extraordinarily clear to all and sundry for the better part of a millennium and a half that the Land of Israel was their homeland, from which they had been forced, and to which they intended to one day return.

You can say something belongs to you until you're blue in the face, you're not going to get it back until you fight for it... The Jews have no more right to Israel than the Japanese do. If they want Israel, they're going to have to fight to keep it; nobody is entitled to any land by birth.

Another example: I have ancestors from the medieval kingdom of Navarre, located in Northern Spain. My ancestors were Basque, but the area has since been conquered by Muslims, the French, and now the modern day Spaniards. There are still Basque people in the area as of today. Since this area still retains a Basque identity and I am of Basque descent, do I have the right to go into Navarre, kill people, and claim the land as my own by right of my Basque blood?

Again I use this example. If I've no birthright to Navarre, what gives the Jews this special right to Israel?

 

[CMike]

The problem is that the arabs there don't want peace.

Israel has gone out of it's way to make peace. However, they have an unwilling partner.

The arab idea of peace is the destruction of Israel.

Israel was a former British colony. The arab countries never accepted the partition.

The first day of Israel's independance they invaded.

They lost, they need to deal with it.

 

[Levite]

You can say something belongs to you until you're blue in the face, you're not going to get it back until you fight for it... The Jews have no more right to Israel than the Japanese do. If they want Israel, they're going to have to fight to keep it; nobody is entitled to any land by birth.

I certainly agree it seems clear that nothing is kept that is not fought for. But the idea that people aren't entitled to their own land is laughable. Maybe in some weird Ayn Rand alternate universe. But in our world, the right of national groups to their own land is an acknowledged aspect of international politics, and has been for around a hundred years.

Again I use this example. If I've no birthright to Navarre, what gives the Jews this special right to Israel?

I believe there are Basque separatist groups that make precisely that claim. And while I don't approve of terrorist tactics, which they tend to employ, I cannot dispute the justice of their claim. Basques have always lived there. Basques still live there. That area becoming part of Spain was not the free choice of the Basque people. Basques are entitled to be a free people in their own land, and Spain should return their independence if the majority of the Basque people so desire it. And any expatriated Basques should have the right to return to their ancient lands.

There is nothing unique about the claim of the Jews to Israel having value, in the sense of the principle being widely applicable to other groups and their respective ancestral lands.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I certainly agree it seems clear that nothing is kept that is not fought for. But the idea that people aren't entitled to their own land is laughable. Maybe in some weird Ayn Rand alternate universe. But in our world, the right of national groups to their own land is an acknowledged aspect of international politics, and has been for around a hundred years.


I believe there are Basque separatist groups that make precisely that claim. And while I don't approve of terrorist tactics, which they tend to employ, I cannot dispute the justice of their claim. Basques have always lived there. Basques still live there. That area becoming part of Spain was not the free choice of the Basque people. Basques are entitled to be a free people in their own land, and Spain should return their independence if the majority of the Basque people so desire it. And any expatriated Basques should have the right to return to their ancient lands.

There is nothing unique about the claim of the Jews to Israel having value, in the sense of the principle being widely applicable to other groups and their respective ancestral lands.

Okay then, seems we're just on different sides of the same page. Yes, there are Basque separatist groups, but I don't support their claim to Basque country any more than I do the Jews' claim to Israel, and they're my own people. A land conquered is a land conquered, and nobody deserves it until they've taken it. The fact that there are so many displaced groups of people suggests that I'm not alone in this sentiment.

 

[Levite]

The fact that there are so many displaced groups of people suggests that I'm not alone in this sentiment.

I say it suggests that there are plenty of amoral people willing to trample all over the rights of anyone who can't fight them to a standstill. But potayto/potahto, I guess.

 

[Shermana]

I say it suggests that there are plenty of amoral people willing to trample all over the rights of anyone who can't fight them to a standstill. But potayto/potahto, I guess.

Hence, we can talk all day about what we're entitled to, but at the end of the day, it's about fighting the amoral people until they give in.

Words are meaningless. The sword is mightier than the pen. Much mightier.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I say it suggests that there are plenty of amoral people willing to trample all over the rights of anyone who can't fight them to a standstill. But potayto/potahto, I guess.

This is a "might makes right" world; people who don't accept that are deceiving themselves.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Hence, we can talk all day about what we're entitled to, but at the end of the day, it's about fighting the amoral people until they give in.

Words are meaningless. The sword is mightier than the pen. Much mightier.

I dunno, I witnessed a pretty brutal pen stabbing once. True story...

 

[Levite]

This is a "might makes right" world; people who don't accept that are deceiving themselves.

Might doesn't make right, it just makes victory. The two are not equivalent. And people who don't see that are just making themselves feel better about how they treat others.

 

[Shermana]

I dunno, I witnessed a pretty brutal pen stabbing once. True story...

I almost stabbed a large bully with a pen in High School, but sanity fortunately kicked in.

 

[Sunstone]

The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis.

Well, the Nazis and pretty much at one time or another every society the Jews have lived in since the diaspora. What do you do if you're a people who has found no safe place in the world? I don't think you can fault them for wanting a land of their own. Although, I am unhappy with much about the current situation, I can certainly understand why Jews would want to escape persecution.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Well, the Nazis and pretty much at one time or another every society the Jews have lived in since the diaspora. What do you do if you're a people who has found no safe place in the world? I don't think you can fault them for wanting a land of their own. Although, I am unhappy with much about the current situation, I can certainly understand why Jews would want to escape persecution.

That's all well and good, but claiming you have an indisputable right to a certain land is a different story entirely.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Might doesn't make right, it just makes victory. The two are not equivalent. And people who don't see that are just making themselves feel better about how they treat others.

Well, you can tell the victor he's wrong, but you better be prepared to fight.

 

[1robin]

I've already made my point on all these issues. I would refer you to post 23 for my example. If I have a birth right to Navarre, then the Jews have a birth right to Israel. Fairly conquered land is fairly conquered land; anyone that claims a right to a certain area by blood is just plain pretentious. The only to claim a land as yours is to fight for it. If you want further explanations just read through the thread, I've made my arguments multiple times already.

What? I have never heard anyone who argued for Palestine even hint that might makes right. On what basis then do you insist Israel occupies anything they are not entitled to. They took all those fought over border areas from those who used it to attack them. Is that not fairly conquered land? Keep in mind I am not saying that I believe might makes right, just that it seems you are saying so. I believe it is many things that give one right to land. All of them are on Israel's side. The only basis on which Palestinians would have claim is who occupied part of the land between Israel's expulsion and prior to approx. 1940. That is certainly not a valid justification for occupancy and every rational criteria is on the Jewish side. I made no birth right issues so I am unclear why you mentioned them. We find ourselves with what currently exists. The best thing to do is outlaw any right of return issues from this point forward in a secular sense anyway and force everyone to stay where they are. Israel would be fine with that. Islam will never be at peace with that. A famous and accurate quote says that if Palestine laid down it's arms today there would be peace tomorrow. If Israel laid down it's arms today there would be no Israel tomorrow.

On a side note, I'm also Cherokee (Eastern Band)

I am a member of the Echota tribe. The eastern Indians were not too bad but west of the Mississippi they did things that make me ashamed to be connected with them. The Europeans did their fair share of censorable acts but in the west the Indians were just plain wrong but that is quite a different issue.

 

[1robin]

You can say something belongs to you until you're blue in the face, you're not going to get it back until you fight for it... The Jews have no more right to Israel than the Japanese do. If they want Israel, they're going to have to fight to keep it; nobody is entitled to any land by birth.

Then they have the right to it another way. The British controlled the area and could do with it as they pleased and use force to make sure it was done. They gave it to Israel and the UN ratified it and so even if no Jew lived there prior to 1948 they still have legal title. That last thing about having no right to something unless it is fought for is not in Palestine's favor. If Israel wished the majority of the middle east could be theirs. Why have you adopted this might makes right stance. That is usually what ever Palestinian supporter hates the worst because it validates what the Jews have conquered. The Jews do not have that attitude however and gave back most of what was lawfully conquered from aggressor nations in war. The Palestinians better hope that the Jews never think the way it looks like you do.

Again I use this example. If I've no birthright to Navarre, what gives the Jews this special right to Israel?

UN mandate. British mandate. Current possession and the fact no one has any better claim.

 

[Shermana]

Well, you can tell the victor he's wrong, but you better be prepared to fight.

I have never heard anyone who argued for Palestine even hint that might makes right

Exactly. People in favor of the Palestinian State are the most pretensious and whiny of all in this regard. At least the Zionists acknowledge they have to fight for their right to party.

 

[1robin]

Exactly. People in favor of the Palestinian State are the most pretensious of all in this regard. At least the Zionists acknowledge they have to fight for their right to party.

Yeah that was a surprise to me. Usually those who defend Palestine hate the fact Israel has defeated Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria (sometimes all at once) and took some of their land so much, that they will avoid any kind of spoils of battle justifications because their side never wins any battles. I think I must have misunderstood their argument but it sure seemed they were defending that land taken by force as belonging to the ones who took it. Fortunately Israel does not feel this way and has given back as much as possible only to be repaid by being shot at from the land they returned.

 

[1robin]

Well, you can tell the victor he's wrong, but you better be prepared to fight.

ISLAM I do not get this. Might is on Israel's side. Why are you claiming that they have a right to keep anything they take and also claiming Palestine has the right to that same land. I am missing something. Are you simply arguing that Palestine is justified in fighting Israel for land?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

What? I have never heard anyone who argued for Palestine even hint that might makes right.

I never claimed that the Palestinians, or anyone that argues for Palestine, share my feelings on the issue. Nor do I make any kind of argument FOR the Palestinians; only AGAINST Jewish entitlement to Israel. I'm not saying the Israelis should pack up and leave then give the Palestinians their land back. I'm saying they should say that Israel is theirs because they conquered it, not because they have some divine right to the land.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

ISLAM I do not get this. Might is on Israel's side. Why are you claiming that they have a right to keep anything they take and also claiming Palestine has the right to that same land. I am missing something. Are you simply arguing that Palestine is justified in fighting Israel for land?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I never made a claim that Palestine has more of a right to the land.