Zionism

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Maybe there is a history of Palestine on the GO.

Bitter much? I'm very much aware of the history of Palestine; I just don't agree with your view of Jewish supremacy.

 

[1robin]

So in your view, Robin, why does Israel have the right to exist?

I hope you mean as a nation and not as a people. As a nation they have:

1. The UN mandate.
2. British Mandate.
3. Birth right.
4. Continuous occupation.
5. Right of conquest.
6. Biblical mandate.
7. Moral right based on use of land.
8. The Bernadotte peace plan.

Some of these are legal, some common sense, some theological. My point has been that in whatever category right to land may be determined Israel has best claim by far over the Palestinians.

 

[1robin]

Bitter much? I'm very much aware of the history of Palestine; I just don't agree with your view of Jewish supremacy.

I do not even know what you mean by Jewish supremacy. See the post above and make a comparable list for Palestine if possible. However if you want a use of land or social contribution supremacy argument I can give you more stats than needed but that is a result of Zionism not a legal argument for it.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

3. Birth right.

6. Biblical mandate.

Jewish supremacy...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I do not even know what you mean by Jewish supremacy. See the post above and make a comparable list for Palestine if possible. However if you want a use of land or social contribution supremacy argument I can give you more stats than needed but that is a result of Zionism not a legal argument for it.

I don't have to make a list; I never claimed Palestine had any rights to the land. You're giving me a burden of proof for a claim I never made, and you still have yet to understand this.

 

[Flankerl]

Jewish supremacy...

1robin Offline
Religion: Christian/Baptist



Just sayin. You two may continue.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Do you also find it ironic that the original Qiblah (direction of prayer) was in Jerusalem? Muhammad was kicked out I should mentioned.

do you mind elaborating..

 

[Monotheist 101]

Personally I am against Zionism. As a fan of religious prophecies..I accept that the Children of Israel would eventually return to their homeland where they await their Promised Messiah.

IMO the Israelis should be more considerate towards their neighbors, learn a thing or two from Saladin.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

1robin Offline
Religion: Christian/Baptist



Just sayin. You two may continue.

I knew that already. Doesn't mean he doesn't hold a bias towards the Jewish side of the debate and constantly say they're superior to Muslims.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I knew that already. Doesn't mean he doesn't hold a bias towards the Jewish side of the debate and constantly say they're superior to Muslims.

I second that.

Ive noticed the bias towards everything Muslim..:yes:

 

[nash8]

I hope you mean as a nation and not as a people. As a nation they have:

1. The UN mandate.
2. British Mandate.
3. Birth right.
4. Continuous occupation.
5. Right of conquest.
6. Biblical mandate.
7. Moral right based on use of land.
8. The Bernadotte peace plan.

Some of these are legal, some common sense, some theological. My point has been that in whatever category right to land may be determined Israel has best claim by far over the Palestinians.

I would take continuous occupation off the list as well, otherwise they wouldn't have needed 1,2, or 5 in order to create the state of Israel. I'm not even going to talk about number 7.

 

[xkatz]

Personally I am against Zionism. As a fan of religious prophecies..I accept that the Children of Israel would eventually return to their homeland where they await their Promised Messiah.

1) Zionism, in it's most simplistic definition is the establishment of a Jewish majority nation-state. Why is that so problematic?

2) You are against Zionism, yet you say that you accept the prophecy that Jews will return to homeland... Isn't that a contradiction of sorts?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

1) Zionism, in it's most simplistic definition is the establishment of a Jewish majority nation-state. Why is that so problematic?

Why is that so necessary?

 

[xkatz]

Why is that so necessary?

Because most Jews realize that they will always be a minority in every other country, and because of that, they have often unjustly suffered at the hands of various governments.

And also, why can't Jews have Israel but French have France, Greeks have Greece, and Arabs have multiple states? It's ludicrous to think Zionism is some evil entity yet any other form of self-determination is (usually) regarded as justified. Self-determination is one of the key principles of the modern world.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Because most Jews realize that they will always be a minority in every other country, and because of that, they have often unjustly suffered at the hands of various governments.

And also, why can't Jews have Israel but French have France, Greeks have Greece, and Arabs have multiple states? It's ludicrous to think Zionism is some evil entity yet any other form of self-determination is (usually) regarded as justified. Self-determination is one of the key principles of the modern world.

The French are French because they live in France... That's not the same as Israel at all. French Jews are still French. Israeli people do have Israel; being Jewish has nothing to do with it. I never said Zionism is "evil"; I said it's pretentious and unnecessary...

 

[xkatz]

The French are French because they live in France... That's not the same as Israel at all.

How so?

French Jews are still French.

Many French and Jews would beg to differ.

Israeli people do have Israel; being Jewish has nothing to do with it.

Israel is a Jewish majority state. It's main ideology, Zionism, is the belief that Jews ought to establish a Jewish majority state (somewhere).

I never said Zionism is "evil"; I said it's pretentious and unnecessary...

Fair enough, but would you say the same for any other self-determination or nationalistic movement?

 

[Shermana]

Why is that so necessary?

Who cares if it's necessary?

Is it necessary to have an independent Kosovo?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

How so?

Because French Jews are still French.

Many French and Jews would beg to differ.

If they speak French, have French ancestors, and are a citizen of France, they are French. Your religion doesn't change your ancestry or your genetic makeup.

Israel is a Jewish majority state. It's main ideology, Zionism, is the belief that Jews ought to establish a Jewish majority state (somewhere).

I realize that Israel is a Jewish majority state. But non-Jews born and raised in Israel are still Israeli, are they not?

Fair enough, but would you say the same for any other self-determination or nationalistic movement?

Yes, I would.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Who cares if it's necessary?

Is it necessary to have an independent Kosovo?

Not at all. You're aware of my position by now though, so I'm not going to further explain it to you.

 

[xkatz]

Because French Jews are still French. If they speak French, have French ancestors, and are a citizen of France, they are French. Your religion doesn't change your ancestry or your genetic makeup.

French in terms of nationality, yes, but not in terms of ethnicity. Judaism is ethno-religious group that is unique in that, if you convert, you are considered part of the religion and the ethnicity. Sure, it doesn't change you're genetics, but it does change your identity.

I realize that Israel is a Jewish majority state. But non-Jews born and raised in Israel are still Israeli, are they not?

Israeli in terms of nationality, yes. They have the same rights as Israeli Jews but the identity of the state is Jewish nonetheless. Much like how a Moroccan Muslim in France is considered French, despite the national identity of France being French and Catholic or secular.

Yes, I would.

Fair enough.