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Zionism

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Did you forget what you were talking about? We're talking about people who don't believe in the Supreme Power, particularly YHWH. As it stands, I believe the majority of people on this Earth are Christian or Islamic (54%). Thus the minority are those who don't agree with the Abrahamic god.

Yeah, but the Muslims don't believe that the Jews are Yahweh's chosen people who must return to Israel. If that was the case there would be no conflict in Israel right now. So you really can't count them in your argument, can you?
 

Shermana

Heretic
No. I don't believe Basques deserve our own country any more than Spaniards do.

So to compliment what we've agreed on earlier, you agree then that the Spaniards deserve all of Iberia because they have been able to fight for it and successfully put the boot heel down on the separatists and that's all that really matters and thus everyone else should give Israel the same respect especially when they don't give two rat's behinds about Basques?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Yeah, but the Muslims don't believe that the Jews are Yahweh's chosen people who must return to Israel. If that was the case there would be no conflict in Israel right now. So you really can't count them in your argument, can you?

No I can't, and I really shouldn't count Christians since most of them go by Replacement Theology.

The point being however, is why should the Jews even concern themselves about what people think, especially when those who don't believe in the Abrahamic god are in the minority?
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
So to compliment what we've agreed on earlier, you agree then that the Spaniards deserve all of Iberia because they have been able to fight for it and successfully put the boot heel down on the separatists and that's all that really matters and thus everyone else should give Israel the same respect especially when they don't give two rat's behinds about Basques?
Yeah; I never disputed the fact that Israel currently belongs to the Jews, just like Spain currently belongs to the Spaniards. I'm saying that doesn't mean either group has any more value than anyone else does. To claim some sort of divine backing is plain idiotic. I thought we went over this already...
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
No I can't, and I really shouldn't count Christians since most of them go by Replacement Theology.

The point being however, is why should the Jews even concern themselves about what people think, especially when those who don't believe in the Abrahamic god are in the minority?

They shouldn't concern themselves with what other people think; it's just that their lack of concern doesn't make their opinion true. Believing God gives you the right to Israel doesn't mean the rest of the world has to recognize that "right". The only way you're gonna keep Israel is by continuing to fight for it. God won't come down from the sky and set up a force field that keeps invaders out because you're his "chosen people"... And the fact that a majority believe in the Abrahamic god doesn't mean that a majority of the world supports Zionism... We both know that to be a false claim.
 

Shermana

Heretic
They shouldn't concern themselves with what other people think; it's just that their lack of concern doesn't make their opinion true. Believing God gives you the right to Israel doesn't mean the rest of the world has to recognize that "right". The only way you're gonna keep Israel is by continuing to fight for it. God won't come down from the sky and set up a force field that keeps invaders out because you're his "chosen people"...

He may not set up a force field, but it's hard to explain why Israel has won every war so far on a purely tactical level, the Arabs held a great advantage in numbers and even quality of arms. They weren't just using Soviet junk.

Note: Few Jews rely on the Biblical mandate argument. The ones who usually make it a religious issue are those who try to say the Jews shouldn't have a state.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Yeah, but the Muslims don't believe that the Jews are Yahweh's chosen people who must return to Israel. If that was the case there would be no conflict in Israel right now. So you really can't count them in your argument, can you?
Well, according to Muhammad, the Land of Israel is where the Jews belong. Or so he is purported to have said in his Koran....
Apparently, the Muslims somehow superseded that idea.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
He may not set up a force field, but it's hard to explain why Israel has won every war so far on a purely tactical level, the Arabs held a great advantage in numbers and even quality of arms. They weren't just using Soviet junk.

Note: Few Jews rely on the Biblical mandate argument. The ones who usually make it a religious issue are those who try to say the Jews shouldn't have a state.

I don't care how many Jews use a Biblical mandate... They have no right to Israel that nobody else does. If the Chinese want to carpet bomb Israel and move in tomorrow, no invisible force is gonna stop them from trying.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Well, according to Muhammad, the Land of Israel is where the Jews belong. Or so he is purported to have said in his Koran....
Apparently, the Muslims somehow superseded that idea.

I didn't mention the Qu'ran; I said the Muslims... Big difference. The Tanakh condones slavery; do you?
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
No I can't, and I really shouldn't count Christians since most of them go by Replacement Theology.

Actually, American Christianity (which is the most powerful Christianity on Earth) invented Fulfillment Theology to, er, replace Replacement Theology.
And, about 400 later, most of the rest of the Christian caught up and accepted that the Jews really didn't kill their god and that the Jews have their own place and purpose on G-d's Green Earth.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Actually, American Christianity (which is the most powerful Christianity on Earth) invented Fulfillment Theology to, er, replace Replacement Theology.
And, about 400 later, most of the rest of the Christian caught up and accepted that the Jews really didn't kill their god and that the Jews have their own place and purpose on G-d's Green Earth.

Which still doesn't mean you have some special right to your own country that nobody else has. NOBODY is special or superior to anyone else in any way; why is that so hard to accept?
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Which still doesn't mean you have some special right to your own country that nobody else has. NOBODY is special or superior to anyone else in any way; why is that so hard to accept?
Because it is untrue?
There are people who are definitely special and/or superior.
But perhaps you yearn to live in the world of Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron?"

It is the year 2081. Because of Amendments to the Constitution, every American is fully equal, meaning that no one is smarter, better-looking, stronger, or faster than anyone else. The Handicapper General and a team of agents ensure that the laws of equality are enforced. The government forces citizens to wear "handicaps" (a mask if they are too handsome or beautiful, earphones with deafening radio signals to make intelligent people unable to concentrate and form thoughts, and heavy weights to slow down those who are too strong or fast).
One April, 14 year old Harrison Bergeron, a highly intelligent, handsome teenager, is taken away from his parents, George and Hazel, by the government. George and Hazel are not fully aware of the tragedy. Hazel’s lack of awareness is due to "average" intelligence, which in 2081, is the politically correct way of referring to someone of well-below-average intelligence. George does not comprehend the tragedy since the law requires him to wear the radio ear piece for twenty-four hours a day because he is of above-average intelligence. The government broadcasts noise over these radios to interrupt the thoughts of intelligent people like George.
Hazel and George are watching ballerinas dance on TV. Hazel has been crying, though she cannot remember why. She remarks on the beauty of the dance. For a few moments, George reflects on the dancers, who are weighed down to counteract their gracefulness and masked to cover up their good looks. They have been handicapped so that TV viewers will not feel bad about their own appearance and hence will feel equally as talented and good-looking. Because of their handicaps, the dancers are not very good. A noise interrupts George’s thoughts: two of the dancers onscreen hear the noise, too; apparently, they are smart and must wear radios as well.
Hazel thinks George looks exhausted and urges him to lie down and rest his “handicap bag,” forty-seven pounds of weight placed in a bag and locked around George’s neck. He says he hardly notices the weight any more. Hazel suggests taking a few of the weights out of the bag, but he says if everyone broke the law, society would return to its old competitive ways. Hazel says she would hate that. A noise interrupts the conversation, and George cannot remember what they were talking about.
On TV, a news reporter with a speech impediment attempts to read a bulletin. The speech impediment was given to him by the government because he is too well-spoken. Unable to overcome his impediment, he hands the bulletin to a ballerina to read. Hazel, who is too dumb to realize that the reporter was handicapped by the government, commends him for working with his God-given abilities and says he should get a raise for trying so hard. The ballerina begins reading in her natural, beautiful voice, then apologizes and switches to a growly voice so that her voice will not sound nicer than anyone else's voice. The bulletin says that Harrison has escaped from prison.
A photo of Harrison appears on the screen. He is wearing the handicaps meant to counteract his strength, intelligence, and good looks. The photo shows that he is seven feet tall and covered in 300 pounds of metal. He is wearing huge earphones, rather than a small radio, and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He is also wearing a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth. His eyebrows are shaved off.
After a rumbling noise, the photo on the Bergerons’ TV screen is replaced with an image of Harrison himself, who has stormed the studio. In an attempt to overthrow the government and its handicapping systems, he says that he is the emperor, the greatest ruler in history, and that everyone must obey him. Then he rips off all of his handicaps. He says that the first woman brave enough to stand up will be his empress. A ballerina rises to her feet. Harrison removes her handicaps and mask, revealing a beautiful woman.
He orders the musicians to play, saying he will make them royalty if they do their best. Unhappy with their initial attempt, Harrison conducts, waving a couple of musicians in the air like batons, and sings. They try again and do better. After listening to the music, Harrison and his empress dance. Defying gravity, they move through the air, flying thirty feet upward to the ceiling, then, still in the air, they kiss each other.
Diana Moon Glampers, the Handicapper General, comes into the studio and kills Harrison and the empress with a 10-gauge double barrel shotgun. Turning the gun on the musicians, she orders them to put their handicaps on. The Bergerons’ screen goes dark. George, who has left the room to get a beer, returns and asks Hazel why she has been crying. She says that something sad happened on TV, but she cannot remember exactly what. He urges her not to remember sad things. A noise sounds in George’s head, and Hazel says it sounded like a doozy. He says she can say that again, and she repeats that it sounded like a doozy.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Because it is untrue?
There are people who are definitely special and/or superior.
But perhaps you yearn to live in the world of Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron?"
There are people that are better in certain areas, but that doesn't give them any rights to anything, or make them more important. I live in the real world where your god doesn't save you. A man gets what a man takes. He should expect nothing.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Ummm.... Well, I don't know how that works.
I strongly suspect that their is not a fatwa that directly contradicts the idea that Jews belong in the Land of Israel.
But, I could be wrong.

But take a general poll of the Muslims in your area. Ask them how they feel about Israel belonging to the Jews by right. See what they say, and you have your answer. As a matter of fact, take a tour of the Middle East wearing an Israeli flag as a cape. See how far you get. I have yet to meet a Muslim that supports Zionism.
 

Shermana

Heretic
There are people that are better in certain areas, but that doesn't give them any rights to anything, or make them more important. I live in the real world where your god doesn't save you. A man gets what a man takes. He should expect nothing.

No, our god does in fact save us in the real world if you deserve to be saved and have been obeying His will. A man should expect Providential reprecussions or benefits based on his "karma".
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
No, our god does in fact save us in the real world if you deserve to be saved and have been obeying His will. A man should expect Providential reprecussions or benefits based on his "karma".

Whatever you say... :rolleyes:
So all 6 million of the Jews that died in the holocaust were "unworthy" of salvation? I guess the ones that died in Stalin's pogroms were unworthy too. And every Jewish baby that dies when a Palestinian rocket hits a hospital. Is God just too busy to keep up with it all?
 
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