For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[dybmh]

Not what you stated that is not true. If what you stated in post #5 and #21 were true. Different statements and different claims. I am making the second point.

What is it in those posts are you talking about?

 

[David Davidovich]

Yeah, there are some advantages and disadvantages to the new format but who I am to say. It isn't my forum.

"Paradise" is not a good word to use. The reason is because it doesn't frame the concept of what Hashem gave mitzvoth for. A better "statement" would be "humanity at its optimal best." This includes the ability to make well thought out decisions, acting in the best of one's personal and communal interest, not destroying one's environment, and properly dealing with mistakes and failures.

So, I guess it would be incorrect that TMJs don't have a concept of humanity eventually finishing up with was supposed to have been Adam and Eve's and their descendants' job, which was to spread Eden around the world?

Genesis 2:15:

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

Genesis 3:22-24

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

In terms of Qoheleth (Eccle.) 1:15 you first have to understand what the book is about - meaning you have to read it from start to finish. The author, king Shelomo ben-Dawith, explains throughout the text what he is addressing. There is some context that I have seen lost in the translation. Especially when he addresses the Torah aspects of what he is talking about.

Essentially, think of it like this. If a Jew has not prepared hot food before Shabbat (Sabbath) to eat on Shabbat - once Shabbat has started he/she can't make hot food on Shabbat. The chance to do for that Shabbat has been lost. If a Jewish man has relations with a woman that is forbidden to from the Torah and he produces a child from it he can't go back and change what produced the child. If a Torah scholar decides to walk away from the Torah for 30 years he can't obviously go back and get those 30 years. What each person can do is improve their situation for the future. Yet, they can't change the past that has already happened.

In terms of getting the rest of humanity to come along. First, that is not the job of Israelis/Jews. I did a video discussing this. In short, if humanity sees an active and successful example of something that cannot be stopped, hindered, or destroyed most people would jump on board themselves. YET, remember there is no requirement at any time for the world to become Jewish. Most sources state that during the return of the Torah based nation and the Davidic King there won't be any conversions to the Torah.

It's interesting how verses from the Hebrew text can be taken out of context and applied the way that people want them applied in order to support a certain belief or view. Also, I'll check out the video.

 

[David Davidovich]

It can be but it doesn't explain why, for examples, in some cultures they do things that contradict what they claim love to be. Also, I once watched a video about someone who went to more natural living people and he explained that often he is working with 2 to 3 translators to get to point of communicating with said group and even then a lot of the concepts they spoke about were lost in the various translations.

But the thing with video is that the 'love' question got lost in translation, therefore, I would think that if these two individuals had been really able to understand that question, then there probably would have been more emphasis put on the importance of love, family, and relationships, etc., rather than on hunting and eating.

 

[David Davidovich]

In terms of the $64,000 question. Look around. You have to remove the English word "sin" from the equation. There are a number of Hebrew words that are often translated as "sin" even though they all mean different things. Trangression or miss-step may be better. Also, we don't use the term "perfect humans" it is better just say humans.

Why would anyone sensible person do the following?

I couldn't spend the time watchting all those videos, but only watched the first one and I think I got the point. However, I don't quite get what you are saying in light of verses such as Psalms 51:1-5:

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Also, see 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, Isaiah 53:6, and Isaiah 48:8.

 

[David Davidovich]

With the words uncaring or cold-hearted, even figuratively, you run into the same problem with trying to define Hashem the way you would a human being.

For example, is a human being who provides you with the ability to be born, live, and thrive (no matter why they do it) defined as uncaring or cold-hearted? If the person receiving these abilities from said human had no contact with the giver to know what their emotions were when they gave these abilities - is the giver considered uncaring and cold-hearted? I would say that most people would not talk that way. They would be grateful for the "actions" that caused them to have the benefit - even if they don't know why/how/or the emotional state of the giver.

Normally, uncaring and cold-hearted (in English) is directed at people who:
1. Do not provide anything to anyone, including their own family.
2. Do not help people that are in need.
3. Act in a way where they can be physically witnessed as actively working against the interest of a fellow human.

For example, a person who saves 1,000 people and shows no physical emotion about it - no one is going to call that person uncaring or cold-hearted. They most likely would care less why he even did it or how he felt when he did it. Just the fact that he did it, and didn't have to, would make most people say. THANK YOU!!!!

Thus, even metaphorically the words "uncaring and cold-hearted" don't make sense when associated with something that:
1. Created a planet for humans to live on.
2. A planet that naturally has the ability to support humans for many generations.
3. The ability for food sources to exist in various locations.
4. Gives humans the mental faculties to survive said environment.
5. Gives humans the ability to choose to accept what they want to accept and reject what they want.

It would make more sense to simply say that anything/anyone that can do all of the above is beyond me, and I am thankful rather to say - well because the source of all these things is beyond me and therefore uncaring and cold-hearted. I don't, for example, use such terms for those who do nothing against my interests and who do nothing for me uncaring and cold-hearted thus to use the terms for something that has created the ability for me to have interests and gave me the ability to have something.

Well, it's difficult to argue with your reasoning, however, I still have caution because of the way that things have turned out for humankind, whom the Source of Reality has brought into existence, and how we have all this pain, suffering, hate, and evil in the world. Plus, I've become a bit jaded and a bit skeptical with the 'human free will' answer. Because it almost seems as if it were inevitable for creatures that had free will to abuse that free will, and thus, it seems as if this has been the Source of Realty's intentions all along and that there was really no other way for this whole 'human' existence thing to turn out.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:https://www.religiousforums.com/goto/post?id=8054789
I see. So, then if it's a generation of Israelis who make that choice, then how are they going to get the rest of corrupt, lying, cheating, and greedy humankind to go along with them? (Well, that took me forever to compose with the new software.)

One important point. Your last statement is also a religious one. Torath Mosheh does not claim that the rest of humanity is "corrupt, lying, cheating and greedy," as you stated. A Torath Mosheh Jew can easily be all of those things. Each of us has to work on ourselves and there are tools for that.

But as far as what I had said in my quote, I have trouble seeing how with the way that many people are on this planet, how a generation of Israelis is going to change the world. Also, what about all the doom and gloom Hebrew text verses (which I had originally planned to start a thread about) such as
Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 13:4-6, Joel 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Amos 5:18-20, Joel 1:15, etc.?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But as far as what I had said in my quote, I have trouble seeing how with the way that many people are on this planet, how a generation of Israelis is going to change the world. Also, what about all the doom and gloom Hebrew text verses (which I had originally planned to start a thread about) such as
Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 13:4-6, Joel 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Amos 5:18-20, Joel 1:15, etc.?

The change that the Tanakh is talking about is one that takes place when the world see Hashem supporing, protecting, etc. an Israel that keeps Torah correctly in the land of Israel. It is not because of something Jew do externally, it is because of the reality that they see happening when Israelis change ourselves internally and it is clear that Hashem is supporting and protecting the situation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, it's difficult to argue with your reasoning, however, I still have caution because of the way that things have turned out for humankind, whom the Source of Reality has brought into existence, and how we have all this pain, suffering, hate, and evil in the world. Plus, I've become a bit jaded and a bit skeptical with the 'human free will' answer. Because it almost seems as if it were inevitable for creatures that had free will to abuse that free will, and thus, it seems as if this has been the Source of Realty's intentions all along and that there was really no other way for this whole 'human' existence thing to turn out.

Again, I don't agree with your assessment of the world. There are a lot of good things happening in the world and there are a lot of people who are doing well no matter challenges arise. Further, the world as is if 100% survivable. Yet, if "people" choose to destroy it that is a people choice. Yet, Hashem has already put in place the ability for all realities to be survived. This has been the reality of the Jewish people, and others. Again, maybe this is an issue of the western concept vs. a traditional concept.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But the thing with video is that the 'love' question got lost in translation, therefore, I would think that if these two individuals had been really able to understand that question, then there probably would have been more emphasis put on the importance of love, family, and relationships, etc., rather than on hunting and eating.

Not really, because in their world hunting, eating, and surviving is a part of their expression of love. Some of the people who have met with them talk about this. The one who can help them survive receives a lot of love in their cultural concept. The minute that this ability changes their view of the person changes.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, I guess it would be incorrect that TMJs don't have a concept of humanity eventually finishing up with was supposed to have been Adam and Eve's and their descendants' job, which was to spread Eden around the world?

I would use the word finishing. One way I look at it is that humanity can really start living reality in the most optimal way. Not a finish but a beginning.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, it's difficult to argue with your reasoning, however, I still have caution because of the way that things have turned out for humankind, whom the Source of Reality has brought into existence, and how we have all this pain, suffering, hate, and evil in the world. Plus, I've become a bit jaded and a bit skeptical with the 'human free will' answer. Because it almost seems as if it were inevitable for creatures that had free will to abuse that free will, and thus, it seems as if this has been the Source of Realty's intentions all along and that there was really no other way for this whole 'human' existence thing to turn out.

Here is an example covers many of the topics that have been discussed especially on whether or not human existance can be summed up in negatives. You have to watch it all the way through. You will notice the perspectives the Babongo, Gabon women between 26:33 to 38:24.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But as far as what I had said in my quote, I have trouble seeing how with the way that many people are on this planet, how a generation of Israelis is going to change the world. Also, what about all the doom and gloom Hebrew text verses (which I had originally planned to start a thread about) such as
Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 13:4-6, Joel 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Amos 5:18-20, Joel 1:15, etc.?

Also, just so you know. Prophecies that predict negeative events don't have to happen. They are dependent on the actions of people. Further, it is not all doom and gloom is read the entire texts from start to finish.

All of the positive prophecies are required to happen based on the reality that at some point a generation of Israelis will get it right, in the land of Israel.

 

[dybmh]

Not what you stated that is not true. If what you stated in post #5 and #21 were true. Different statements and different claims. I am making the second point.

Well, the best I can say is that I am not the only one to notice the greek influence, and I am not the only one to notice the heresy. It's well docmented in the links below. Multiple Rabbis, all widely accepted scholars. Criticisms range from: this contradicts Talmud, this is harmful greek wisdom, this challenges the whole Torah, The Guide *must* have been written by a different person...

Did Rambam explain why and how he got so influenced by Aristotle?

It is widely known that Rambam was greatly influenced by Aristotle, and his Guide and Hilchot Yesodey Hatorah practically repeat Aristotle's view and adopt them into Judaism (see also WIKI): Moses

judaism.stackexchange.com

Is anyone against the rational teachings of Maimonides?

I am new to Judaism and am intrigued by Maimonides and his teachings but I do not know the opinions of this particular teacher - a man of such vigor and influence - by the many different congregati...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Should we interpret the Torah literally or allegorically?

I had a question regarding how we should interpret the Torah. Should we interpret it literally, or if not how far can we abstract its teachings, or should we favour a mix of both approaches? I have

judaism.stackexchange.com

If Moses wrote the Book of Job, was he Job's contemporary and writing history or is the Book an inspirational work of fiction?

The Talmud at Bava Basra 14b-15b teaches that Moses wrote the Book of Job before the Exodus. If so, was he a contemporary and a witness to Job's suffering, was he describing a historical figure he...

judaism.stackexchange.com

 

[dybmh]

Here is an extremely detailed essay describing some of the Rabbinic criticism of Rambam's approach to law in his later work, The Guide for the Perplexed, and how those criticisms are answered. One of those criticisms is:

"Maimonides’ position is problematic in that it can conceptually lead to the possible negation of ritual sacrifices and other commandments."​

And one of the answers to this problem is: {emphasis mine}

"Maimonides meant to offer a rational conceptualization of ritual sacrifices so that even a layperson would be able to offer a logical/rational defense if pressed to do so"​

​

"he only wrote this for “perplexed” individuals who demand a logical explanation of the phenomenon."​

It's a facinating article, focused on the problems of a rational approach to the temple commandments. Both sides of the issue are presented fairly. Both the criticisms and their work-arounds apply equally well for the limitation Rambam imposed on God's emotive capability. Just as a purely rational approach is potentially damaging to the law, it is equally potentially damaging to a Jewish person's relationship to God.

Weaning Away from Idolatry: Maimonides on the Purpose of Ritual Sacrifices

This essay explores Maimonides’ explanation of the Bible’s rationale behind the ritual sacrifices, namely to help wean the Jews away from idolatrous rites. After clearly elucidating Maimonides’ stance on the topic, this essay examines his view from different angles with various possible...

www.mdpi.com

 

[dybmh]

The text uses human language so we can see things in a relatable fashion. It also applies that human language to God so we can relate. That doesn't change God's nature but allows us to make a connection

I understand that. And I'm not trying to change God's nature. Walking down to the beach and putting my feet in the water says nothing about the extent of the ocean, its capability, or its nature. Somehow what appears to be limitless water has come right up the shore. I suppose it could be just a mirage, and I'm just standing in a desert imagining the ocean, wishing for the ocean. And if that's the case I would never be able to make an *actual* connection with the water.

I think you have 2 separate questions here:
1. Is God without emotions? Yes, in the sense that we, humans, understand emotions, God is not human, so God is not "of" human-conceived emotions.
2. Does God care about human affairs? God doesn't "care" in the human sense because, again, human language constructs don't capture God. But if use the human-limited idea, then God does "care" about all the world and everything in it.

Respectfully, I'm trying to ask a specific question, not about God directly, but what the Torah describes. I asked:

"Do you think that Torah is describing a god which is without emotion and doesn't care about human affairs?"

 

[rosends]

"Do you think that Torah is describing a god which is without emotion and doesn't care about human affairs?"

No, I think the Torah is describing a God with human emotions for the sake of the readers' understanding, and a God that cares deeply about human affairs and is intimately involved in human existence and experience.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
But as far as what I had said in my quote, I have trouble seeing how with the way that many people are on this planet, how a generation of Israelis is going to change the world. Also, what about all the doom and gloom Hebrew text verses (which I had originally planned to start a thread about) such as
Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 13:4-6, Joel 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Amos 5:18-20, Joel 1:15, etc.?

The change that the Tanakh is talking about is one that takes place when the world see Hashem supporing, protecting, etc. an Israel that keeps Torah correctly in the land of Israel.

Well, at this point I do understand that the Hebrew texts that I cited are written 'figuratively' in a way that Jews/humans can better understand and relate to, however, if you don't mind me asking, what is the purpose of all the scary and violent language in those verses?
Zephaniah 1:14-18

14 The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
15 That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
16 a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.
17 “I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
will be able to save them
on the day of the Lord’s wrath.”
In the fire of his jealousy
the whole earth will be consumed,
for he will make a sudden end
of all who live on the earth.

Isaiah 13:9-11

9 See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

Zephaniah 3:8

8 Therefore wait for me,”
declares the Lord,
“for the day I will stand up to testify.[a]
I have decided to assemble the nations,
to gather the kingdoms
and to pour out my wrath on them—
all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed
by the fire of my jealous anger.

Amos 5:18-20

18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
That day will be darkness, not light.
19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
20 Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

Joel 1:15

15 Alas for that day!
For the day of the Lord is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.[a]

Therefore, I don't get it, @Ehav4Ever.

It is not because of something Jew do externally, it is because of the reality that they see happening when Israelis change ourselves internally and it is clear that Hashem is supporting and protecting the situation.

So, what is the problem with them internally right now? Also, you're saying that corrupt politicians such as Trump (if he's still around then), Mitch McConnell (if he's still even alive), Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Josh Hawley, Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, and Kevin McCarthy, just to name a few, all are going to see Jews behaving nicely and then become good guys and gals all the sudden. And that's just to name some of the corrupt politicians who are in the United States.

Also, @Ehav4Ever, you use the word "reality" a lot, but the scenario that you're describing doesn't even some like reality but sounds more like a... if you don't mind me saying this... a pipe dream. Plus, it's totally out of harmony with the above Hebrew texts that I quoted.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
Well, it's difficult to argue with your reasoning, however, I still have caution because of the way that things have turned out for humankind, whom the Source of Reality has brought into existence, and how we have all this pain, suffering, hate, and evil in the world. Plus, I've become a bit jaded and a bit skeptical with the 'human free will' answer. Because it almost seems as if it were inevitable for creatures that had free will to abuse that free will, and thus, it seems as if this has been the Source of Realty's intentions all along and that there was really no other way for this whole 'human' existence thing to turn out.

Again, I don't agree with your assessment of the world. There are a lot of good things happening in the world and there are a lot of people who are doing well no matter challenges arise. Further, the world as is if 100% survivable. Yet, if "people" choose to destroy it that is a people choice. Yet, Hashem has already put in place the ability for all realities to be survived. This has been the reality of the Jewish people, and others. Again, maybe this is an issue of the western concept vs. a traditional concept.

But just because there are a lot of good things happening in the world and a lot of people who are doing well, that doesn't negate the evil that exists in the world, which seems to be what you are saying:

Also see... 8 OF THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISES TO KNOW IN 2023

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
But the thing with video is that the 'love' question got lost in translation, therefore, I would think that if these two individuals had been really able to understand that question, then there probably would have been more emphasis put on the importance of love, family, and relationships, etc., rather than on hunting and eating.

Not really, because in their world hunting, eating, and surviving is a part of their expression of love. Some of the people who have met with them talk about this. The one who can help them survive receives a lot of love in their cultural concept. The minute that this ability changes their view of the person changes.

Well, if that's the case and Hashem created human beings with that much diversity even when it comes to the basic concept of love, then no wonder the world has so many conflicts. wars. and disagreements if we all can't even agree upon and share the same concept of love.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
So, I guess it would be incorrect that TMJs don't have a concept of humanity eventually finishing up with was supposed to have been Adam and Eve's and their descendants' job, which was to spread Eden around the world?

I would use the word finishing. One way I look at it is that humanity can really start living reality in the most optimal way. Not a finish but a beginning.

I guess you meant to say, 'I would not use the word finishing.' Therefore, is it correct to say that according to TMJs, human beings will always live with the inherited whatever-it-is-called that they got from Adam and Eve because of their disobedience to Hashem and will just have to manage that with the Torah laws for the rest of eternity?

Psalms 51:3-5

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.