For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

No, not on chassidus, this is Torah.

Anyway, a similar concept is cited here:

citing the verse, "Forever, O G‑d, Your word stands in the heavens," the Baal Shem Tov explains that unlike human speech – which once spoken is gone – G‑dly "speech" is everlasting. This means that the Ten Utterances used to create the world continue to stand, constantly re-creating the world.

So, Psalm 119 is cited, with the same wording, basically. And no one comments on כִּי־טוֹב יְהֹוָה לְעוֹלָם חַסְדּוֹ וְעַד־דֹּר וָדֹר אֱמוּנָתֽוֹ׃ saying, no-no, this isn't literal. It's pretty obvious. Kind of like "We were slaves in egypt is obvious". Remember when you said that?

Can you provide the actual wording of the Baal Shem Tov on that? Also, can you provide others who make the same assessment. Again, what you have cited is a Hasidut source. Thus, at the moment you have only established what you say the Ba'al Shem Tov stated but not what others who are not in Hasidut stated.

Further, just based on this alone you can't relate this what the English "emotions" mean in the English langauge.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Emotions are how you feel and feeling are fondness or the lack of fondness that you have for someone or something.

Is that your pesonal definition or did you get that from somewhere?

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
it is difficult for me to look at all these incidents as Hashem not reacting or retaliating against these bad or dangerous behaviors and that only natural consequences occur when people do the wrong thing.

I agree. It is difficult to read these incidents are Hashem NOT REACTING. I think Hashem is definitely reacting.

Yes, and I hope that @Ehav4Ever addresses that point.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, even though I do realize that in physical human beings, this is all related to chemical processes and hormones, etc., in our brain and body, but that's because that is the kind of beings we are and that is how we work.

And do you agree that is a part of the definition of the word emotions in English?

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
Of course, not. Because how can you give a yes or no answer to a question such as: Who is Hashem? or What is his motives? or What does humankind mean to him? or the other 4 remaining questions?

So, then it sounds like you want details? I am now a little confused on what your definition is answer that does not have detail but is not simplified down.

Hey, my brother, there's a thing called balance and extremes. Sometimes we cannot provide enough, and other times we provide too much. But it's up to the individual to figure out what is the balance and the extremes.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes, and I hope that @Ehav4Ever addresses that point.

Is his definition of what a "reaction" sufficient for you? For example, in his view is Hashem subject to time? For example, did Hashem react before, during, or after? Did Hashem already know what was going to happen beforehand, before the universe, and waiting until the event and then at the exact did something that Hashem did not already intend to do?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Hey, my brother, there's a thing called balance and extremes. Sometimes we cannot provide enough, and other times we provide too much. But it's up to the individual to figure out what is the balance and the extremes.

Can you describe what you consider this balence to be? If you are the one asking the question, you get to determine what a balenced answer is.
For example, can you show me a response that have received on RF where within one or two post you received the answer you wanted and you no longer had questions on that topic?

 

[David Davidovich]

Because of Iyov (Job) 38 - 42.

So, what's that got to do with @dybmh?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Time as a metaphor? No, I don't think I remember you saying that. But please do continue.

I wrote it already. I am asking you how you perceive a "god' being either a) within time - affected by it/subject to it or b) outside of time - no subject to it.

 

[David Davidovich]

Which other Jews? Where do they get their information and how far back does their information go?

In terms of Mosheh writing Iyov, according to what you know why do you think he wrote it?

It was at a forum that I read years ago, however, I don't recall them saying that they were TMJs, since I've only heard about TMJs since being at this forum since last year. And as far as the other questions go, they didn't get into all that. They just stated what they stated about Job as Jews who knew what was in the Hebrew text better than Christians did. Also, the Moses writing it thing is something I heard from Christian sources. But I just looked that up online and it says that he didn't.

Therefore, now what?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, what's that got to do with @dybmh?

It goes to the definition he gave for the difference between god emotions and human emotions.

 

[David Davidovich]

I wrote it already. I am asking you how you perceive a "god' being either a) within time - affected by it/subject to it or b) outside of time - no subject to it.

Yeah, I think I might remember this now. But I would say that this god would not be affected by it.

 

[David Davidovich]

Is that your pesonal definition or did you get that from somewhere?

Is there something wrong with that definition and the part that you did not quote?

 

[David Davidovich]

And do you agree that is a part of the definition of the word emotions in English?

Yep. And I recall you posting about that the other day.

 

[David Davidovich]

Is his definition of what a "reaction" sufficient for you? For example, in his view is Hashem subject to time? For example, did Hashem react before, during, or after? Did Hashem already know what was going to happen beforehand, before the universe, and waiting until the event and then at the exact did something that Hashem did not already intend to do?

Good questions. However, he still did it... or had done it anyway. Therefore, how do you answer that?

Plus, below is what I said in my post #321, just to keep this in front of the conversation.

So, are you saying that Hashem didn't actually 'cause it to rain down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire' as you have explained before about other calamites, and that somehow the people of Soom and Gomorrah's behavior caused some sort of 'natural' environmental consequence to befall their cities? And I think that you explained something similar about the Noachian flood? And is this the same thing that happened with Uzzah at 2 Samuel 6:1-7 and 1 Chronicles 13:9-12? Or does the Hebrew language actually say that Uzzah died of natural consequences rather than Hashem striking him down? Also, what about Dathan and Abiram who rebelled against Moses and Aaron? Did Hashem cause the earth to open up and swallow them and their followers or was that just a natural consequence of them behaving against their own interests? (Numbers 26:8-10) And there are tons of other examples of incidents like these that I have read in the Hebrew text before, therefore, it is difficult for me to look at all these incidents as Hashem not reacting or retaliating against these bad or dangerous behaviors and that only natural consequences occur when people do the wrong thing.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
Hey, my brother, there's a thing called balance and extremes. Sometimes we cannot provide enough, and other times we provide too much. But it's up to the individual to figure out what is the balance and the extremes.

Can you describe what you consider this balence to be? If you are the one asking the question, you get to determine what a balenced answer is.

Well, to repeat what I said in my quote above: But it's up to the individual to figure out what is the balance and the extremes.

For example, can you show me a response that have received on RF where within one or two post you received the answer you wanted and you no longer had questions on that topic?

Maybe some other time, but not tonight because it's getting late for me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, to repeat what I said in my quote above: But it's up to the individual to figure out what is the balance and the extremes.

Yes, and you are the individual who we are talking about. You also the one seeking answers to your qeustions. You also mentioned things about my responses to you or me not taking part in certains and my intentions about both. That being said, it would be nice to know an example of what see as balence and the extremes.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yep. And I recall you posting about that the other day.

Okay, the definitions I posted screen shots of you agree with those definitions. Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yep. And I recall you posting about that the other day.

So, that being said. If a god didn't have a body, would you agree that the definitions you wrote may not be applicable? If yes, how and why?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yeah, I think I might remember this now. But I would say that this god would not be affected by it.

So, if said god is not affected by time can it be said that said god does not change? I.e. if there is no past, present, and future affecting such god can it be said that such a god simply it exists as is? Further, in relations to beings that are affected by past, present, and future can it be said that earlier mentioned god exists in all three exactly the same and at the same time, from the human perspective?