A Classic Example of an Ethically Bankrupt Religion

[sojourner]

The holocaust was what it was: An act of humanity perpetrated upon humanity by humanity. God had nothing to do with it. We can sugar-coat the horror and pain and damage done all we want to, couching it in the dubious philosophy that "God's purposes are not our purposes," but sugar-coated poison is still poison.

The holocaust was certainly our purpose that had nothing whatsoever to do with God's purpose.

 

[Mister_T]

The whole point of that verse is that if one sins that he should fear God. If your sins are forgiven, you would have no reason for fear. Jesus died for us so that our sins would be forgiven. So it is not contradictory.

As I explained already, isolating one verse and presenting it as the message of the gospel can be very misleading.

One is telling you to fear God, the other is telling you how much God loves you. Presenting either one by itself and proclaiming that to be the message of the Gospel is contradictory since they are at opposite ends.

 

[kmkemp]

If we were to argue or think differently, it would be an example of the exceptional incompetence and cruelty of God.

On this thread we can observe Christianity at its very worst, of which you most certainly are not representative. It calls to mind the dark ages, where Europeans valued their superstisions more than the lives of their fellow human, and killed millions of people to cultivate their faith. Religion should serve to abviate such bloodlust from the hearts of humans instead of encourage and celebrate it.

Ironically, you are assuming that those people were Christians, which is exactly the downfall that you are accusing me of. Anyone that kills people for a superstition is not a Christian in my book.

As it is written: "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Matthew 7:16 KJV

[/FONT]

 

[sojourner]

I agree with AE. This is nothing more than the modern version of the same imperialist crap that ruined the lives of many natives (including our own indian cultures through the Dawes Act).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"Other people"? So you don't think that any believers died during the Holocaust?

You're disrespecting their memory, too.

I hope this quote below it is not your example of me disrespecting it's memory.

I wouldn't expect anything more than a parroting of my comments. :sad:

Again, I am talking about God's perspective here (did you actually read this thread?).

Unfortunately, I have read this entire thread. It's depravity is so shocking that I am grasping at how to express the depths of its insensitivity and insolence.

If your comments represent your actual beliefs about the Christian God, or any other god, I strongly encourage you to abandon such destructive dillusions. If you think that these comments have anything to do with the Christian God, I'd encourage you to talk with your pastor about them, as these comments are as far from an orthodox understanding of God as they can get, and you have seriously misunderstood the nature of God to the extreme. It's so twisted that I don't think that I can detangle it, and I am delighted to see that other Christians here that I respect are able to interact with you positively, and frustrated that there are others who can be found who at least partially emphathize with your statement.

Notes:

Christian responsibility to beg for mercy

Process Theology of the Cross

 

[!Fluffy!]

I never said it was representative of the majority of Christian attitudes. Sorry if it came off that way. My point was that the statement is mis-representative of the Gospels, and damaging to the faith.

we are 100% in agreement then :yes:

I, as a Christian, read that quote in horror.

~matthew.william~

me too matthew william, me too.

 

[kmkemp]

Instead of replying to several points brought up that have already been discussed, I'll just make this post.

First, I am saddened beyond words that so many Christians have been so overcome with humanism that they no longer believe that one person's soul is more important than millions of people dying a worldly death. Jesus must be weeping in heaven looking down on us right now. Whatever happened to "to live is Christ and to die is gain"? The disciples willingly sacrificed their lives so others might turn towards Christianity. There have been numerous martyrs that have done likewise throughout our history. Paul was willing to go to hell himself (for eternity! imagine that) to save souls. Whether you want to hear this or not, your views are not represented by biblical scripture.

I once heard John Piper's response to hurricane Katrina. The radio talk show woman was asking him to respond to the people who were trying to say that God had nothing to do with it. I don't have the transcript offhand, but he quoted the same verse that I have already quoted here. Scripture is clear: nothing happens apart from the will of God. He is omnipotent, magnificent. He has control over the whole of his creation. It might very well have been caused by man, but God very well could have stopped it if he had chosen to, and he did, since Hitler didn't conquer the world. Piper went on to talk about the tower in the gospel. I will try to recall the story, but I may mess up some details. Forgive me. A tower had fell on a group of Jews and someone had come to Jesus to ask him why it happened. He told them that they were all sinners and that we were asking the wrong question. We should be asking ourselves, 'what mercy the Lord has for letting us to go on living every day despite our sins'.

That, my friends, is the Biblical response to tragedy. If you want to say that God had no part in the Holocaust, then God can do you no good. If he is not all powerful, what kind of God have you placed your faith in? This is a God that wiped out Israel's opposition, flooded the earth, destroyed whole cities. It is not within your power to tell anyone what God did or didn't do. One thing we can be sure of is that the Holocaust did not occur apart from the will of God.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ironically, you are assuming that those people were Christians, which is exactly the downfall that you are accusing me of. Anyone that kills people for a superstition is not a Christian in my book.

As it is written: "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Matthew 7:16 KJV[/FONT]

Hmmm...

if we really believe that our life here on earth is only a blink compared to our soul's eternity, killing millions of people to build even one person's faith can easily be justified.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Instead of replying to several points brought up that have already been discussed, I'll just make this post.

First, I am saddened beyond words that so many Christians have been so overcome with humanism that they no longer believe that one person's soul is more important than millions of people dying a worldly death. Jesus must be weeping in heaven looking down on us right now. Whatever happened to "to live is Christ and to die is gain"? The disciples willingly sacrificed their lives so others might turn towards Christianity. There have been numerous martyrs that have done likewise throughout our history. Paul was willing to go to hell himself (for eternity! imagine that) to save souls. Whether you want to here this or not, your views are not represented by biblical scripture.

I once heard John Piper's response to hurricane Katrina. The radio talk show woman was asking him to respond to the people who were trying to say that God had nothing to do with it? I don't have the transcript offhand, but he quoted the same verse that I have already quoted here. Scripture is clear: nothing happens apart from the will of God. He is omnipotent, magnificent. He has control over the whole of his creation. It might very well have been caused by man, but God very well could have stopped it if he had chosen to, and he did, since Hitler didn't conquer the world. Piper went on to talk about the tower in the gospel. I will try to recall the story, but I may mess up some details. Forgive me. A tower had fell on a group of Jews and someone had come to Jesus to ask him why it happened. He told them that they were all sinners and that we were asking the wrong question. We should be asking ourselves, 'what mercy the Lord has for letting us to go on living every day despite our sins'.

That, my friends, is the Biblical response to tragedy. If you want to say that God had no part in the Holocaust, then God can do you no good. If he is not all powerful, what kind of God have you placed your faith in? This is a God that wiped out Israel's opposition, flooded the earth, destroyed whole cities. It is not within your power to tell anyone what God did or didn't do. One thing we can be sure of is that the Holocaust did not occur apart from the will of God.

There is a big difference between passively dying for Christ and actively killing others, which your quote suggests in the OP! For the sake of Christ, realize what you are saying!

 

[BFD_Zayl]

as soon as you watch the videos of the holocaust camps being discovered, cleaned out, and the bodies being buried, i dont think anyone will say something good came of it. i watched, for an entire hour, as nazi prisoners hauled more dumptruck loads of emaciated, torn, rotting bodies with looks of horror on their faces then i could count. by the end of the video i felt numb, i was unblinking, and breathing very slowly, i was in shock, to be quite honest.

 

[kmkemp]

There is a big difference between passively dying for Christ and actively killing others, which your quote suggests in the OP! For the sake of Christ, realize what you are saying!

It is you who haven't understood. I am not talking about men killing men. I am talking about God using tragedies where millions die to serve as a warning, wake-up, whatever you want to call it for others who will turn to God as a result of it.

 

[!Fluffy!]

My curiousity is directed towards Christians who believe that God will send people to hell who do not believe in Jesus Christ. According to this view, a very strict minority of human beings will find peace in the afterlife.

yes that whole concept sticks in the craw.

If you believe this, don't you have the responsibility to beg God to change God's mind and become more humane?

The rest of the theists, myself included, have the responsibility to beg God to change his character as well.

if that IS his character, we wouldn't hesitate to wrestle like Jacob would we.

kmkemp's god however: i'll grab him by the throat...hell or no.

 

[kmkemp]

So if a soul isn't worth millions of lives, how many is it worth? 1? 10? 100? 5,000?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

as soon as you watch the videos of the holocaust camps being discovered, cleaned out, and the bodies being buried, i dont think anyone will say something good came of it. i watched, for an entire hour, as nazi prisoners hauled more dumptruck loads of emaciated, torn, rotting bodies with looks of horror on their faces then i could count. by the end of the video i felt numb, i was unblinking, and breathing very slowly, i was in shock, to be quite honest.

This is my view as well. I would never say this, ever.

I do believe that God exists, and the Holocaust and other evils both past and present are serious problems for my belief in God's goodness and power. In fact, God deserves to die for allowing such evils to occur and continue.

However, as a Christian I believe that God works about redemption, and did work redemptively in the lives of millions of people in spite of evils that God allowed. I do not recognize God as the author of these evils, but because God is powerful, God does bear some ultimate responsibility. Because of this, I am afraid of God but nevertheless hope that God actually is good.

 

[Fredx10]

Are you suggesting that God could not have stopped the Holocaust?

If you believe that God is omnipotent, then there must have been some reason why he allowed it to occur, right? I brought forth several possible reasons. Good things that have come about.

Now, for the part of my statement that is highlighted. My logic is based on simple math. One person's soul will survive for ETERNITY. Saving it is not worth killing millions of people? Those millions of people are only moving on to eternity. It is not like we are condemning them to hell. I am not celebrating the Holocaust, nor am I claiming I know God's reasons. If you don't think that the spiritual battle to win people's souls is more important than our current state of suffering, perhaps you need to pay closer attention to Jesus and Paul.

What in hell are you talking about?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So if a soul isn't worth millions of lives, how many is it worth? 1? 10? 100? 5,000?

Just one.

 

[BFD_Zayl]

So if a soul isn't worth millions of lives, how many is it worth? 1? 10? 100? 5,000?

a soul is worth a soul, that is to say, 1=1 in this matter. would you have 1,000 people die, who might not be "saved" for all you know, so there would be a chance only one person would be "saved"? why not keep those people alive and talk to them?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Just one.

John 12.32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Romans 5

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.


15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass[e] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[f] leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[kmkemp]

a soul is worth a soul, that is to say, 1=1 in this matter. would you have 1,000 people die, who might not be "saved" for all you know, so there would be a chance only one person would be "saved"? why not keep those people alive and talk to them?

Well, the holocaust was a wake-up call for billions of people, not just 1. I am not attempting to portray my logic as God's logic. He very well could have other reasons (I already suggested others as well). What this thread boils down to is several people attempting to tell others that they know God's reasons. Scripture is clear: My ways are not your ways and my mind is not your mind. But, nonetheless, they spew this humanity nonsense and try to pass it off as "God's way".

 

[!Fluffy!]

as a mere mortal human mother, i can tell you one child's suffering in Dachau is not worth anyone's enlightenment, or chastisement, or anything else anyone can think of.