A legal violation of student's dignity and privacy

[Koldo]

Cause if discrimination, of the hateful ugly variety, actually exists right now, then having all people share same bathroom in all public venues stemming from the politics of this issue (solely) would mean that is not really being dealt with, but is being suggested to be overcome. That stands to work wonders, and work out well in the long run, but with kids where cruel discrimination reigns supreme, it would mean it is possibly allowing private venue for greater opportunity to engage in bullying type tactics. Obviously stemming from the emotional debate that adults will have on full display while the controversy sorts itself out.

On what basis do you believe there will be greater opportunity to bullying ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I never said SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) was used to treat homosexuals. It is used to treat gender confusion which is a psychiatric illness.

You did state it's used to treat people who start off as gay.

 

[David1967]

I have the solution to the whole bathroom thing, although it would cost a little more. Private public restrooms with a lock on each door. Being a person that likes my privacy, I would actually prefer this. Problem solved.

 

[Aštra’el]

@Saint Frankenstein

Don't get dramatic, SF. I posted my perspective on this matter in a real and honest way, without trying to be offensive. At one point I suggested that people should appreciate their body, respect it, and take some pride in it... and you accuse me of telling trans people how to live their lives, lol. If doing your transition helps you respect yourself, appreciate yourself, and take pride in your body, than you are doing exactly as I suggested.

 

[Brian Schuh]

You did state it's used to treat people who start off as gay.

No, actually I said that a man can have gender confusion and not be gay at all. I cited an example of a man I met who was straight but had gender confusion, and had the SRS and ended up a lesbian when prior he was a straight man. How did you misunderstand? I mean it can be confusing. Did I fail to be clear or something?

 

[McBell]

I have the solution to the whole bathroom thing, although it would cost a little more. Private public restrooms with a lock on each door. Being a person that likes my privacy, I would actually prefer this. Problem solved.

they should put locking doors on the stalls...

Oh wait......

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

I confess that until yesterday I found the discussion of who gets to use the bathroom rather silly. I couldn’t understand how a country that is drowning in debt and has so many other issues to worry about would waste any time and energy talking about such a thing. In Europe that’s not even a subject.

However, yesterday I saw in the news that Obama passed a law saying that schools must allow trans student to use the bathrooms and locker rooms that match their gender identity, and universities should do the same when it comes to sex-segregated campus housing.

Now, that made me look at it in a different way.

I don’t have children, but I imagined for a moment that I had a daughter and that she came home and said “mom, today I changed in front of a boy in the locker room but it’s okay because he thinks he’s a girl.” If this happened to me I would totally freak out.

When did the feelings of a confused boy become more important than the privacy and dignity of all girls at school?

The way I see it, if a trans student has changed gender (as in, has had surgery) and said student has an id card stating the new gender, then that person should be allowed in the bathroom of their gender. No one goes through the ordeal of hormonal treatment + surgery if they are not serious about it.

If students get to decide in their heads their gender identity of the month and all other students have to suck it up, that is abuse.

I don’t believe a girl who thinks she’s a boy would go into the boys locker room because she knows they will bully her and possibly assault her so she’ll stay away. The problem is the other way around. Allowing a boy who thinks he’s a girl (or who pretends to because that might seem fun to him) into the girl’s bathrooms and locker rooms is a violation of the dignity and privacy of those girls.

All of you out there who have daughters, are you comfortable with this? Are you ok with the fact that your little girl has to change her clothes in front of a boy even if she doesn’t want to because it’s the law? Would you be happy to have your teenage daughter using the toilet right next to a boy?

I know I wouldn't have been happy about this when I was at school and I'm glad I never had to endure such a thing.

Completely agree and there are similar questions being raised in the UK at least, not sure about the rest of europe.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, actually I said that a man can have gender confusion and not be gay at all. I cited an example of a man I met who was straight but had gender confusion, and had the SRS and ended up a lesbian when prior he was a straight man. How did you misunderstand? I mean it can be confusing. Did I fail to be clear or something?

It's when you said this:

One must have gender confusion before one is a transgender. It is a psychiatric condition. SRS is a way to treat it if one starts off gay or lesbian. But lack of manhood in a heterosexual male can't be treated with SRS, it just makes it harder to be sexually active with the gender of one's choice.

They way it's written, how it is interpreted is SRS is a way to treat gender dysphoria (the word "confused" is used because we are not confused) if someone starts being gay or lesbian. You said it can't treat this "lack of manhood" in a heterosexual (which there is no lack of manhood, only an image that makes men keep beating their chests and trying to live up to the standards of legendary men that never were), and maybe that is where the confusion happened. I (and most people here) do not see heterosexual men as lacking anything in their "manhood," and your sentence of SRS as being a way to treat people who start of gay or lesbian seems to be referring to a group that doesn't believe they have anything "lacking" in their manhood because they are homosexual.

 

[Brian Schuh]

It's when you said this:


They way it's written, how it is interpreted is SRS is a way to treat gender dysphoria (the word "confused" is used because we are not confused) if someone starts being gay or lesbian. You said it can't treat this "lack of manhood" in a heterosexual (which there is no lack of manhood, only an image that makes men keep beating their chests and trying to live up to the standards of legendary men that never were), and maybe that is where the confusion happened. I (and most people here) do not see heterosexual men as lacking anything in their "manhood," and your sentence of SRS as being a way to treat people who start of gay or lesbian seems to be referring to a group that doesn't believe they have anything "lacking" in their manhood because they are homosexual.

Thank you for clarifying yourself.

I myself wasn't clear. I am against SRS for anyone, male or female, gay or straight. Gender "confusion" has been treated with SRS, whether rightfully or wrongfully. No matter how wrong it is for gay men, how much more wrong it is for a straight man.

Thanks for pointing out that all men have manhood, whether good men or not, manhood isn't reserved just for Superman.

But if SRS is wrong for a straight man, to some extent, you would think it is wrong for every man, even gays.

I wasn't clear in what I was saying.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No matter how wrong it is for gay men, how much more wrong it is for a straight man.

Homosexual men do not get it just because they are transgender. The two have nothing to do with each other, one never leads to the other, and they can't accurately be linked in such a way.

But if SRS is wrong for a straight man, to some extent, you would think it is wrong for every man, even gays.

No one who considers themselves a man, gay or straight, has SRS, not unless they were born female and they transition to male.

 

[Father Heathen]

We can't allow 14 year old boys into the girls locker room. Trust me I used to be 14. That's every boy's dream.

Unless, of course, they're trans, which excludes them from the "every boy" bracket. I think everyone who's up in arms over this restroom thing needs to be marched back to school to brush up on psychology, as they clearly have no understanding of what being transgendered entails.

 

[Scott C.]

Unless, of course, they're trans, which excludes them from the "every boy" bracket. I think everyone who's up in arms over this restroom thing needs to be marched back to school to brush up on psychology, as they clearly have no understanding of what being transgendered entails.

It's more difficult than usual to communicate in this thread. If you read all of my posts, you probably would not have made that comment. But then again, I don't expect you to read all of my posts.

I haven't addressed bathrooms. I'm addressing locker rooms where people are naked in view of others. I'm not addressing adults. I'm addressing adolescents. I'm not addressing trans genders who have undergone the sex change surgery. I'm not addressing how trans genders, who have not undergone surgery, will behave in the locker room of their new gender. In many cases, folks here seem to imply that there is no need for any gender control on locker rooms at any age or in any place. This liberal policy would certainly accommodate trans genders and would level the playing field for them.

I want someone out there in RF land, who wants to accommodate trans genders, to acknowledge that it's not a good idea to put naked heterosexual non-trans boys with naked heterosexual non-trans girls in view of each other. Then I want someone to recognize that some proposals would indeed lead to this inappropriate situation and some proposals would expressly allow it. Then I want someone to explain exactly what they want to see and explain how it should be enforced to ensure the dignity of all people involved and to avoid the inappropriate situation I described above.

Who knows, maybe I'd hear a solution I can accept. So far I mostly here a lot of confused and unclear proposals, accusations, and a lot of emotion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I want someone out there in RF land, who wants to accommodate trans genders, to acknowledge that it's not a good idea to put naked heterosexual non-trans boys with naked heterosexual non-trans girls in view of each other. Then I want someone to recognize that some proposals would indeed lead to this inappropriate situation and some proposals would expressly allow it. Then I want someone to explain exactly what they want to see and explain how it should be enforced to ensure the dignity of all people involved and to avoid the inappropriate situation I described above.

What I would like to see is people get over nudity and nakedness being such a big deal. For a "state" that we spend an awful lot of time in, we're for some reason very ashamed of it. People also need to learn that restraint is possible, they are responsible for their own sexual actions, and just because someone is naked that doesn't imply sex.

 

[Brian Schuh]

Homosexual men do not get it just because they are transgender. The two have nothing to do with each other, one never leads to the other, and they can't accurately be linked in such a way.

No one who considers themselves a man, gay or straight, has SRS, not unless they were born female and they transition to male.

I hav

Homosexual men do not get it just because they are transgender. The two have nothing to do with each other, one never leads to the other, and they can't accurately be linked in such a way.

No one who considers themselves a man, gay or straight, has SRS, not unless they were born female and they transition to male.

I currently have a transgender friend who doesn't identify as a dude. He has no desire to alter his body in any way. In the past he took estrogen but has since discontinued it. No one has SRS where I live without consent, and they have to pay for it. I don't understand how he can be considered transgender and he can't seem to explain it. To me he is just a cross dresser with two personalities, one male and one female. He also happens to be gay. He says he has had sex with women, but didn't care for it. Even when he is male, he still doesn't identify as a dude. It's all véry confusing.

 

[Father Heathen]

I want someone out there in RF land, who wants to accommodate trans genders, to acknowledge that it's not a good idea to put naked heterosexual non-trans boys with naked heterosexual non-trans girls in view of each other.

Okay, but what does this have to do with the thansgender issue?

 

[Scott C.]

What I would like to see is people get over nudity and nakedness being such a big deal. For a "state" that we spend an awful lot of time in, we're for some reason very ashamed of it. People also need to learn that restraint is possible, they are responsible for their own sexual actions, and just because someone is naked that doesn't imply sex.

Does that mean you believe locker rooms in high school should be open to both genders for ALL boy and girls?

 

[Scott C.]

Okay, but what does this have to do with the thansgender issue?

I think if you read the entire post carefully, you would see how my statement you quoted is relevant to the transgender issue.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I have a question for anybody here. If a law or executive order by Obama dictates that a transgender is to use the restroom of his/her newly acquired gender, does that mean they can't use the restroom of original gender? Or are they free to use any restroom?

My transgender friend identifies as female, yet prefers to use the men's room, will he be forced to use the women's room, since that is how he identifies?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Does that mean you believe locker rooms in high school should be open to both genders for ALL boy and girls?

It's not a bad goal to ultimately work up too, that *shock* can learn nakedness is not inherently sexual, that they can control their sexual impulses, and that they are in control of their actions, not their hormones.

 

[Scott C.]

It's not a bad goal to ultimately work up too, that *shock* can learn nakedness is not inherently sexual, that they can control their sexual impulses, and that they are in control of their actions, not their hormones.

So what would be your proposal to handle transgender high school locker rooms?