A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

Nope. You presume to have authority to say what must have happened regarding the origin (if any) of existence itself?

What do you mean....I have been consistently saying that there was never a universe from nothing...do you not agree with this?

Do you believe the universe is eternal?


Please make clear precisely what it is you disagree with?

 

[LuisDantas]

What do you mean....I have been consistently saying that there was never a universe from nothing...do you not agree with this?

Do you believe the universe is eternal?


Please make clear precisely what it is you disagree with?

Pretty much any positive claim regarding whether existence itself had a beginning and/or a creator.

Specifically:

1. That there must have been a beginning.

2. That there must have been an intent, design or conscious creator.

3. That there must have not been a beginning.

4. That there is religious significance to the matter, either way.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Pretty much any positive claim regarding whether existence itself had a beginning and/or a creator.

Specifically:

1. That there must have been a beginning.

2. That there must have been an intent, design or conscious creator.

3. That there must have not been a beginning.

4. That there is religious significance to the matter, either way.

I am confused....back in your post # 992 in response to my saying..."And what evidence is that, that shows why and how something can come from nothing?"....you replied..."There is no reason to believe that such a thing ever happened. Far as anyone can tell, there was always "something"."

Now if as far as anyone can tell, there was always something...then that "something" must have been always existed...yes?

 

[LuisDantas]

"Must" is a strong word. We just don't kno0w whether there was always something.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"Must" is a strong word. We just don't kno0w whether there was always something.

Ok....let me see if I understand you...I ask you where is the evidence that something came from nothing and you tell me there is no reason to believe that such a thing ever happened.

I take this to mean you do not believe something came from nothing....am I in error?

Furthermore, you explain to me that as far as you can tell, there was always "something" in existence..

I take this to mean you think there was always "something" in existence....am I in error?

 

[Thief]

Nothing like. Enlightenment is what it means.

it's one or the other....

you 'wake up' and the scheme of things are known to you.....or....
you wake up having lost all that you have gathered unto yourself

enlightenment is not all that some think it is

you could realize it's not want you what
some people say....ignorance is bliss

 

[Thief]

Pretty much any positive claim regarding whether existence itself had a beginning and/or a creator.

Specifically:

1. That there must have been a beginning.

2. That there must have been an intent, design or conscious creator.

3. That there must have not been a beginning.

4. That there is religious significance to the matter, either way.

'must' is indeed a strong word
and it's one or the other......

substance has it's own volition and the dead can be get the living......or....

Someone snapped His fingers and the universe .......began

 

[McBell]

But how can they be plausible when there is zero empirical evidence? Do you believe it plausible that pink carnivorous unicorns exist in Texas?

 

[McBell]

that's like science is not science

Yes, it is like you claiming to use science.
Same thing really.

 

[loverofhumanity]

it's one or the other....

you 'wake up' and the scheme of things are known to you.....or....
you wake up having lost all that you have gathered unto yourself

enlightenment is not all that some think it is

you could realize it's not want you what
some people say....ignorance is bliss

One enters a state of no longer having any doubts. A state of complete certitude and peacefulness because there is no longer any more inner conflict.

"“When the channel of the human soul is cleansed of all worldly and impeding attachments, it will unfailingly perceive the breath of the Beloved across immeasurable distances, and will, led by its perfume, attain and enter the City of Certitude.”

Bahá’u’lláh. “The Kitáb-i-Íqán.”

 

[Aupmanyav]

Let me try again. Two possibilites:
Universe is eternal. Problem : How did it arise in the first place?
Universe arose out of nothing. Many-worlds interpretation (Universes are created every moment (and perhaps destroyed) but since they are in different planes of existence, so we cannot interact with them).
"In layman's terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large - perhaps infinite - number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.
It is currently considered a mainstream interpretation along with the other decoherence interpretations, collapse theories (including the historical Copenhagen interpretation), and hidden variable theories such as the Bohmian mechanics.
Before many-worlds, reality had always been viewed as a single unfolding history. Many-worlds, however, views reality as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

That is why Luis said that 'must' is a strong word to use. Science is not as straight-forward as it was in Newton's time. Who knows what will crop up next. Hope you understand our position.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Let me try again. Two possibilites:
Universe is eternal. Problem : How did it arise in the first place?
Universe arose out of nothing. Many-worlds interpretation (Universes are created every moment (and perhaps destroyed) but since they are in different planes of existence, so we cannot interact with them).
"In layman's terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large - perhaps infinite - number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.
It is currently considered a mainstream interpretation along with the other decoherence interpretations, collapse theories (including the historical Copenhagen interpretation), and hidden variable theories such as the Bohmian mechanics.
Before many-worlds, reality had always been viewed as a single unfolding history. Many-worlds, however, views reality as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

That is why Luis said that 'must' is a strong word to use. Science is not as straight-forward as it was in Newton's time. Who knows what will crop up next. Hope you understand our position.

I am confused by your post....the many-worlds interpretation implies an eternal process....or are you saying that the theory says there was a very first one of the many worlds?

If so, why did it happen and how?

Don't you see how silly this sitting on the fence is...the universe is eternal....

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just some excerpts from Some Answered Questions which goes into a lot of depth about these subject.

“It is certain that the entire contingent world is subject to an order and a law which it can never disobey. Even man is forced to submit to death, sleep, and other conditions—that is, in certain matters he is compelled, and this very compulsion implies the existence of One Who is All-Compelling. So long as the contingent world is characterized by dependency, and so long as this dependency is one of its essential requirements, there must be One Who in His own Essence is independent of all things.

. “Some Answered Questions.”

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Let me try again. Two possibilites:
Universe is eternal. Problem : How did it arise in the first place?
.

I missed this....perhaps because I can not imagine anything so....so...I am lost for words.. The universe did not arise because eternity does not have a beginning...and if you were to reflect on it, you would see that it could not be any other way.... To expect that because a temporary expression of the absolute universe like yourself had a beginning, that the universe itself therefore must also be temporary like a mortal and have a beginning is ludicrous...

 

[Thief]

Yes, it is like you claiming to use science.
Same thing really.

if someday you actually say something as a presentation of a contrary idea.....

but no....just shallow retorts

 

[Aupmanyav]

@ben d
All claims need a proof to be accepted. If "universe from nothing" is proved wrong, "universe is eternal" will automatically be established. Actually, we are doing your work. At the moment what you say is only a claim (without proof). So also the claims of existence of God (and his sons, daughters, messengers, manifestations, mahdis, prophets, etc.).

 

[Thief]

All claims need a proof to be accepted. If "universe from nothing" is proved wrong, "universe is eternal" will automatically be established. Actually, we are doing your work. At the moment what you say is only a claim (without proof). So also the claims of existence of God.

there will never be a photo, a fingerprint, an equation or repeatable experiment.

no proof available

when it comes to God.....you have your sense of good reason

 

[McBell]

if someday you actually say something as a presentation of a contrary idea.....

but no....just shallow retorts

You have ignored all attempts at having an honest discussion about your dogma.
Hells bells, you even dogmatically deny your dogma is dogma.

Seven years of reinforcing your beliefs to yourself and still you continue with the same old song and dance.

Guess you can't teach some old dogs new tricks....

 

[Thief]

You have ignored all attempts at having an honest discussion about your dogma.
Hells bells, you even dogmatically deny your dogma is dogma.

Seven years of reinforcing your beliefs to yourself and still you continue with the same old song and dance.

Guess you can't teach some old dogs new tricks....

more shallow retort.....no discussion of what you believe....

 

[McBell]

more shallow retort.....no discussion of what you believe....

With your seven plus years of mastery over them, I will have to bow to your extensive knowledge of "shallow retorts".