A Universe from Nothing?

[YmirGF]

surprise!!!!!!
as in......unexpected experience
as in Moses on the mount....

I tend to go with that, Thief. It's so rare that we hear of spontaneous experiences that well up from the depths of being. Human animals have this odd tendency to think the universe should unfold in line with their expectations. No wonder "enlightenment" is such a rare bird.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If yours is the "greater understanding" I think I'd prefer to remain ignorant.

It matters not the person....it is the greater understanding....ignorance is an unusual preference for most..... humble admission though..

 

[YmirGF]

It matters not the person....it is the greater understanding....ignorance is an unusual preference for most..... humble admission though..

I think what disturbs me Ben, and you know me well enough to understand me, is the endless pontificating that folks seem prone to do based on relatively little. One cannot easily escape the expectations of belief. Reality is much more pliable than many are aware of and it literally molds itself to our understanding. That last bit is the important part. What I find limiting in your perspective is the idea of absolutes. Experience will simply confirm strongly held beliefs - even when those beliefs arise from erroneous assumptions about said experiences. It's a bit of a viscous circle.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

URAVIP2ME, you should recognize a figure of speech when you see one...Ecclesiastes 1:4 B "One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever", is merely referring the earth as an enduring creation relative to three score and ten years of man.. Contemporary science reveals that old planets and star systems are dying and new ones being created all the time throughout the universe...

Besides what King Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 1:4 B that the earth abides forever, so does 1 Chronicles 16:30, besides the Psalms such as Psalms 93:1 B; Psalms 96:10; Psalms 104:5; Psalms 104:35 and Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 32:17

Yes, some stars go supernova, while new stars are born, so to speak, or formed in a stellar ' nursery '.
Because of sin mankind lost access to the Genesis ' tree of life ' and through sin is why are days are Not eternal.
Adam was offered ' everlasting life ' right here on planet Earth as long as he did Not break God's Law.
That means father Adam and us could have lived forever right here on Earth.
Jesus will undo, or reverse, all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.
That means mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
So, the 'Earth abiding forever' is more than a figure of speech, as mankind will soon see starting with the soon coming ' time of separation' on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33 when righteous people will remain alive on Earth, and continue living on Earth, right into the start of Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins. That millennial reign of Christ will bring an end to enemy death on Earth, so there will be No more death on a forever abiding Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
God's original purpose for Earth will be completed. Earth will be a beautiful paradisical garden-like place filled with righteous people living forever on Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So existence never had a beginning? Then what is meant in the Bible by 'In the beginning' does it refer to an era or age?

God as existence ( always existed - Psalms 90:2 ) never had a beginning or a start.- Psalms 104:30
In the beginning means in the beginning of God creating the heavens and the Earth.
As far as Earth's beginning is concerned, I suppose one could say the Era or the Age when Earth became into existence billions of years ago.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What's with all this "scripture?" Do you think this is authoritative? fact based? tested? Peer reviewed? Why is this ancient folklore more authoritative than science?
Bible quotes don't further your position, except among those already convinced. Why do you not quote the Tao, the Gita or Harry Potter? What makes them any less authoritative?

I am merely making reference to Scripture as to what the Bible really teaches.
The Bible has been tested and retested over thousands of years.
What do you find wrong with Jesus' Sermon on the Mount ' teachings ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This strikes me as odd, inasmuch as a central tenet of the theory is that there was no "before" before the Big Bang.
Links?

There was No ' material ' existence before the Big Bang.
The material/physical realm of existence is from dynamic energy.
According to Scripture, such ' energy ' comes from God's power and strength.
Like from a Power Grid, God supplied the needed 'power and strength' ( energy ) to create the material/physical realm.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think what disturbs me Ben, and you know me well enough to understand me, is the endless pontificating that folks seem prone to do based on relatively little. One cannot easily escape the expectations of belief. Reality is much more pliable than many are aware of and it literally molds itself to our understanding. That last bit is the important part. What I find limiting in your perspective is the idea of absolutes. Experience will simply confirm strongly held beliefs - even when those beliefs arise from erroneous assumptions about said experiences. It's a bit of a viscous circle.

You use the concept of 'reality' in a different context to me....the reality I speak of is not pliable by the mortal mind.....it has nothing to do with belief....it has nothing to do with conceptualization....and can only be realized when these things are absent.. This reality is non-dual in that it is the underlying unity of the reality you speak of as being pliable... free from disturbance..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Besides what King Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 1:4 B that the earth abides forever, so does 1 Chronicles 16:30, besides the Psalms such as Psalms 93:1 B; Psalms 96:10; Psalms 104:5; Psalms 104:35 and Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 32:17

Yes, some stars go supernova, while new stars are born, so to speak, or formed in a stellar ' nursery '.
Because of sin mankind lost access to the Genesis ' tree of life ' and through sin is why are days are Not eternal.
Adam was offered ' everlasting life ' right here on planet Earth as long as he did Not break God's Law.
That means father Adam and us could have lived forever right here on Earth.
Jesus will undo, or reverse, all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.
That means mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
So, the 'Earth abiding forever' is more than a figure of speech, as mankind will soon see starting with the soon coming ' time of separation' on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33 when righteous people will remain alive on Earth, and continue living on Earth, right into the start of Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins. That millennial reign of Christ will bring an end to enemy death on Earth, so there will be No more death on a forever abiding Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
God's original purpose for Earth will be completed. Earth will be a beautiful paradisical garden-like place filled with righteous people living forever on Earth.

We shall see URAVIP2ME, the end times are upon us and all will be revealed soon...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We shall see URAVIP2ME, the end times are upon us and all will be revealed soon...

Yes, the end times of badness on Earth is upon us before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
We are now at the ' final phase ', so to speak, of Matthew 24:14 with the international proclaiming about the good news of God's kingdom.
We are now nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, "Peace and Security " as the precursor of the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
So, although we do Not know the day - Matthew 24:36 - we do know the end-time season which we are in - Matthew 24:32-33,37
We are figuratively in the ending 'dark December season' before this world of badness ends - Psalms 92:7; Revelation 22:2

 

[`mud]

2000 plus years....and we're still waiting !
Too many collars and robes !
Unbelievable !
~
'mud

 

[Ben Dhyan]

2000 plus years....and we're still waiting !
Too many collars and robes !
Unbelievable !
~
'mud

The good shepherd is extremely careful to not lose any of his flock....we are all impatiently waiting on you....stuck in the mud..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

2000 plus years....and we're still waiting !
Too many collars and robes !
Unbelievable !
'mud

Yes, too many 'backwards collars and robes' because they are the false religious shepherds of Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
If the time was cut short, so to speak, then we would Not have had the opportunity to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
Jesus, as the promised 'seed', could have appeared as Messiah anytime after the words of Genesis 3:15 were said.
It is just that 2,000 years ago proved to be the best time for his arrival to be born on Earth.
Remember: Religious house cleaning will start with the ' House of God ' - Matthew 23:38; 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5
In other words, when the political powers-that-be turn on religion, then Christendom will be the first to go.
A ' new broom sweeps clean '. Jesus as that figurative ' new sweeping broom ' cleans out his Father's house ( of worship ) .
Unfaithful Christendom corresponds to unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem.
The waiting 'time of separation' is nearing its close - Matthew 25:31-33

 

[loverofhumanity]

God as existence ( always existed - Psalms 90:2 ) never had a beginning or a start.- Psalms 104:30
In the beginning means in the beginning of God creating the heavens and the Earth.
As far as Earth's beginning is concerned, I suppose one could say the Era or the Age when Earth became into existence billions of years ago.

You make some very good points. We know God always existed so creation in one form or another most likely existed also.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, the end times of badness on Earth is upon us before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
We are now at the ' final phase ', so to speak, of Matthew 24:14 with the international proclaiming about the good news of God's kingdom.
We are now nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, "Peace and Security " as the precursor of the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
So, although we do Not know the day - Matthew 24:36 - we do know the end-time season which we are in - Matthew 24:32-33,37
We are figuratively in the ending 'dark December season' before this world of badness ends - Psalms 92:7; Revelation 22:2

We Baha'is believe He already has returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah but that people missed His coming because they misinterpreted the signs.

 

[YmirGF]

You use the concept of 'reality' in a different context to me....the reality I speak of is not pliable by the mortal mind.....it has nothing to do with belief....it has nothing to do with conceptualization....and can only be realized when these things are absent.. This reality is non-dual in that it is the underlying unity of the reality you speak of as being pliable... free from disturbance..

As I said, I'm fully aware of the fact that the individual can fool themselves into thinking they are not at the mercy of their beliefs and expectations. Again, that underlying reality molds itself to the understanding of the individual. To pretend otherwise is extraordinarily foolish.

 

[YmirGF]

We Baha'is believe He already has returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah but that people missed His coming because they misinterpreted the signs.

That being the case the greatest likelihood is that those sign weren't especially obvious. Plus, why take birth in such a backwater area on the planet at that time? The movers and shakers were nowhere in sight, so it doesn't say a lot for his attempt to sway humanity. Instead, he chose a place where he would have to endure heavy persecution. Go figure.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We Baha'is believe He already has returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah but that people missed His coming because they misinterpreted the signs.

I think that could also be true in Christendom misinterpreting the composite sign with many features of Matthew chapter 24 and Luke 21:11
Jesus is the invisible head of the Christian congregation - Ephesians 5:23 - so in that sense he has already returned.
But, according to Matthew 25:31-33 Jesus ' glory time ' is still ahead of us.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

As I said, I'm fully aware of the fact that the individual can fool themselves into thinking they are not at the mercy of their beliefs and expectations. Again, that underlying reality molds itself to the understanding of the individual. To pretend otherwise is extraordinarily foolish.

What you are admitting is that you are at the mercy of your beliefs and expectations...and are not pretending otherwise...btw, this has been obvious from your comments.. I have no problem with that...liberation from living in maya is not for everyone...

 

[loverofhumanity]

That being the case the greatest likelihood is that those sign weren't especially obvious. Plus, why take birth in such a backwater area on the planet at that time? The movers and shakers were nowhere in sight, so it doesn't say a lot for his attempt to sway humanity. Instead, he chose a place where he would have to endure heavy persecution. Go figure.

The signs are very obvious if we look for them.

Jeremiah 49:38

I will set my throne in Elam..

ELAM (Heb. ʽêlām) (PLACE)
Name denoting both a region in highland Fars province (Iran) around the modern city of Shiraz

(Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible)

The Baha'i Faith began in Shiraz, whose ancient name in the Bible is Elam where God would set His Throne.