About that Gaza flotilla...

[Bismillah]

kai: I'm curious as to what comments compromised the investigations neutrality. Do you have a source? Otherwise Israel can claim that condemnation of the deaths of activists in international waters compromised their neutrality, when it was just common sense.

Ymir: Yet they found the bodies of the activists were lying on the floor or otherwise had multiple wounds to the neck and back. That hardly seems like an aggressive stance. Again I would like to ask why soldiers, when they were in the position of greatest harm and weakness, were cared for. Why would this happen when mob mentality dictates that in such an event these men should have been killed.

Which ones do you doubt were the "peace activists"? I remember when the original post of this attack was posted many simply blamed the Turks as the violent antagonists and labeled the other multinationals there as unfortunate bystanders.

 

[dust1n]

Israel agreed to UN Resolution 1701. They have kept to that resolution. The other side has not and the UN has done nothing to ensure that it has. If the UN cannot uphold their own resolutions and put the power that they supposedly have behind their resolutions, why should anything they say be believed?

What does any of that have to do with Israeli soldiers shooting Turkish peace activists?

 

[kai]

What does any of that have to do with Israeli soldiers shooting Turkish peace activists?

The credibility of the UN is relevant to any international discussion even one about Israeli soldiers using lethal force against their assailants on the Mavi marmara.

 

[dust1n]

The credibility of the UN is relevant to any international discussion even one about Israeli soldiers using lethal force against their assailants on the Mavi marmara.

That's great... who was speaking about the credibility of the UN?

All she stated was that Israel had agreed to the resolution and the UN didn't act to enforce it.

The UN doesn't have its own armies to enforce its rulings...

The UN, after approval by the Security Council, sends peacekeepers to regions where armed conflict has recently ceased or paused to enforce the terms of peace agreements and to discourage combatants from resuming hostilities. Since the UN does not maintain its own military, peacekeeping forces are voluntarily provided by member states of the UN. The forces, also called the "Blue Helmets", who enforce UN accords are awarded United Nations Medals, which are considered international decorations instead of military decorations. The peacekeeping force as a whole received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988.

United Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So what does any of this even have to do with the credibility of the UN? Let alone the Turkish peace activists.

 

[dust1n]

[youtube]Hx-pSkee9J0[/youtube]
YouTube - Israel Flotilla Raid - Breakdown of Who's Right and Wrong

 

[kai]

[youtube]Hx-pSkee9J0[/youtube]
YouTube - Israel Flotilla Raid - Breakdown of Who's Right and Wrong

that guy is very funny.i like him, but i gave up when he said the Israelis pulled out their guns and shot everyone on deck.

 

[dust1n]

that guy is very funny.i like him, but i gave up when he said the Israelis pulled out their guns and shot everyone on deck.

Yea, exaggeration makes it easy for a journalistic to be discredited. Poor word choice.

But he had some points.

 

[kai]

That's great... who was speaking about the credibility of the UN?

All she stated was that Israel had agreed to the resolution and the UN didn't act to enforce it.

The UN doesn't have its own armies to enforce its rulings...

The UN, after approval by the Security Council, sends peacekeepers to regions where armed conflict has recently ceased or paused to enforce the terms of peace agreements and to discourage combatants from resuming hostilities. Since the UN does not maintain its own military, peacekeeping forces are voluntarily provided by member states of the UN. The forces, also called the "Blue Helmets", who enforce UN accords are awarded United Nations Medals, which are considered international decorations instead of military decorations. The peacekeeping force as a whole received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988.

United Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So what does any of this even have to do with the credibility of the UN? Let alone the Turkish peace activists.

well if you dont want to bring the UN into it absolutely nothing, if you do everything

 

[England my lionheart]

No, no it's not. The evidence presented is not incomplete, in fact it is conclusive of the events that occurred on during the attacks. What is missing is any evidence that justifies Israel's actions, which is a fault of Israel, which may full well be because such evidence does not exist.

Maybe there does

What is interesting is that you are now accusing Hamas of conjuring up evidence that was found by an international inquiry! It is also interesting that the "truth" will only come to light if something pro-Israeli comes up. Otherwise it is all a conspiracy

You should note i said "supporters" which doesn't mean just Palestinians,and yes hopefully the truth will come out but it won't through a rigged jury.

I'm not sure what more you want when there are video records of soldiers firing onto the crowd, unprovoked from their helicopters. When their are eye witnesses stating that the IDF was disproportionate and that they attacked those who were not even resiting, including those who are not Muslim because like it or not I'm sure those types of prejudices and thoughts exist. When testing of the corpses revealed that the activists were shot while lying on the ground or multiple close bullet wounds in the back of activists. When soldiers whose weapons were taken from them were taken to a doctor, who as a part of the flotilla, and received medical treatment. Something that goes against the mob mentality images that the IDF posted on their videos. Everything goes against the grain of Israel's claims.

I think there were genuine peaceful protesters on board and as i said before i think there were also anything but peaceful protesters on board.
I also think the boarders were not expecting any resistance at all and when this occured and the first shot was fired it got out of hand which considering the ammount of bullets in the corpses would make sense.

In fact the only association between Israel and evidence has been that of their attempts to obstruct, hide, or discredit it.

But there is still one inquiry to complete is there not

 

[kai]

The UN's first Mavi Marmara report deserves calm reading

Turkey/Cyprus: The UN's first Mavi Marmara report deserves calm reading - International Crisis Group

 

[dust1n]

The UN's first Mavi Marmara report deserves calm reading

Turkey/Cyprus: The UN's first Mavi Marmara report deserves calm reading - International Crisis Group

My favorite part was this;

At the same time, the step-by-step account raises important questions about the rapidity, lethality and sustained nature of the Israeli commandos' use of force against civilians in international waters. During the seizure of the Mavi Marmara, it asserts that Israelis used live fire from a helicopter to clear the top deck of resisting activists before any soldiers landed. It finds no evidence of any firearms brought on board by or used by the activists, as some Israeli officials have claimed. It shows that force used in Israeli takeovers of three other vessels in the flotilla was also disproportional. It lays out abuses by Israeli troops and officials during several subsequent stages, including failure to treat several injured properly, degrading treatment of tied-up prisoners during the long, hot passage by sea to the Israeli port of Ashdod, an improper parading of the detained activists to jeering Israeli onlookers on the quayside, attempts to force activists to sign self-incriminating documents, cases of unaccountable Israeli seizure of activists' cameras, computers, cellphones, cash and property, and severe beatings of activists that continued to draw blood even as they were about to be deported from Ben Gurion International Airport.

Thank you for the link, kai. Definitely a complex situation deserving of further investigation.

 

[bowingtoGod]

What else is new? Israel is just filled with terrorists. If it were a Muslim doing this it would be all over the news, but God forbid they do the same for Israel!

 

[Sunstone]

What else is new? Israel is just filled with terrorists. If it were a Muslim doing this it would be all over the news, but God forbid they do the same for Israel!

Granted, there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to Israel: U.N. Report finds Israel "summarily executed" U.S. citizen on flotilla - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

 

[dust1n]

Granted, there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to Israel: U.N. Report finds Israel "summarily executed" U.S. citizen on flotilla - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

Man, can Greenwald lay out the smack down or what.

 

[Sunstone]

Man, can Greenwald lay out the smack down or what.

Whatever else one might think of Greenwald, it seems his integrity is not for sale. I have my differences with him at times, but I've never come across anything he's said that has given me sound reason to question his intellectual honesty.

 

[dust1n]

Whatever else one might think of Greenwald, it seems his integrity is not for sale. I have my differences with him at times, but I've never come across anything he's said that has given me sound reason to question his intellectual honesty.

Me neither. I am enjoying Salon occasionally because of him. He wrote an extraordinary piece on why the Iraq War is not over and does some serious investigating on the public relations involved with that whole ordeal.

 

[kai]

My favorite part was this;










Thank you for the link, kai. Definitely a complex situation deserving of further investigation.

The whole article kind of lays out how this operation (and i mean the Mavi marmara operation) was heading for tragedy right from the organisation stage it makes it quite clear thethe Turkish NGO that owned the ship were determined to resist the Israelis with violence who by the way made it perfectly clear to them, they would be intercepted . And it needs explaining why Israeli commandos who once set upon by a minority on the Mavi Marmara resorted to lethal force, i look forward to more information on this tragedy yes its a complex matter which deserves to be looked at in a non partisan way . . my favourite part is UN report deserves calm reading


tell me Dust1n do you think that the people who instigated violent resistance to the well publicized impending Israeli boarding party have any culpability in this tragedy at all ? I mean linking hands and singing "we shall overcome " is one thing but to attack Israeli Commandos is bordering on reckless insanity in my book.

 

[Bismillah]

It's funny because no one was calm when this situation first developed. Every media outlet and their mother quickly pointed to the activists and the "defenseless" commandos who were subjugated to violence. Now that the real evidence is shedding light on what really happened, we should take a step back and wait?

kai: Is it reckless insanity when the Israeli's attack you in international water, shooting prior to boarding, and continue shooting when much of the violence abates. Is it reckless to attack back when they shoot and kill an activist who simply has a camera? I really am interested when you think self defense would be justified.

 

[dust1n]

tell me Dust1n do you think that the people who instigated violent resistance to the well publicized impending Israeli boarding party have any culpability in this tragedy at all ? I mean linking hands and singing "we shall overcome " is one thing but to attack Israeli Commandos is bordering on reckless insanity in my book.

I fail to see how they don't have the right to protect their ship. They were not at the blockade.. this was pre-blockade, a blockade that has already been declared illegal, and it is technically an act of war to board a ship in such a fashion. Do they some culpability sure... but who instigated it? Did you not read about the abuse that took place after the arrest? Am I to except this to be different in a more submitting incident?

 

[kai]

It's funny because no one was calm when this situation first developed. Every media outlet and their mother quickly pointed to the activists and the "defenseless" commandos who were subjugated to violence. Now that the real evidence is shedding light on what really happened, we should take a step back and wait?

Abibi commandos are not defenceless thats my point who would want to attack them with iron bars?

kai: Is it reckless insanity when the Israeli's attack you in international water, shooting prior to boarding, and continue shooting when much of the violence abates. Is it reckless to attack back when they shoot and kill an activist who simply has a camera? I really am interested when you think self defense would be justified.

The Israelis made it perfectly clear that they would intercept the vessel they told them to divert to Ashdod i think and unload there, i dont think there is even any docking facility in Gaza for that ship this was more political than humanitarian and confrontational from the start.

In my opinion the whole thing was confrontational and a confrontation is what happened the report says quite clearly that the Israelis at first used non lethal weapons and were repulsed, live fire was used after the first unsuccessful boarding attempt by inflatables the second attempt by helicopter live rounds were used (and we need to know why) We need to know exactly how people lost their lives and we need to address all the people who have responsibility for this tragic event.

Its no good blaming the Israelis alone. let me tell you Abibi if i were a member of the boarding party and one of my colleagues was being attacked with iron bars depending on the orders of the day i would have used lethal force if i thought his life was in danger. All the deaths need to be investigated impartially, and its no good the people who attacked the Israelis shirking all responsibility for their actions theres blood on their hands too.