Adultery and monogamy

[JustGeorge]

Perhaps I’m just so cold to having trust broken at this point in my life. I expect it ya know? And I willingly forgive it. When I didn’t forgive, I had no one.

Yeah... me too.

I don't always forgive... but I move forward.

 

[Koldo]

He doesn't. He says he is loyal to his boyfriend.

For now... But he said it is alright if there are emotional needs to be fulfilled.

His objection is the social stigma it carries(for example, it being compared to murder).

I think he's saying(correct me if I'm wrong, @an anarchist ) that it would no longer devastate or destroy him. That seems good. We oughta not let relationships devastate and destroy us(easier said than done).

Which can be achieved without the baggage that comes with internalizing that feeling mad at being cheated on is unthoughtful and selfish.

 

[VoidCat]

You shall not commit adultery -- Why would you? Really.

I can think of one. When you have an issue with communication and miscommunicate. Some folk who are poly or open and maybe even some monogamous relationships might miscommunicate on what is and isn't cheating and cross a line unintentionally. And example might be a partner that is ok with sex outside the relationship but only if there's no romantic feelings involved might miscommunicate that and so the partner thinks it's ok to have a romantic relationship but really it's not. Or the partner would be ok for the other to watch porn and sexting and phone sex folk yet doesnt like the idea of friends sending photos/vids. The partner might not communicate the no photos/vids part because they didn't think about it. Or a person might feel free porn is ok but no phone sex even if it's a professional and no messaging only fans models. But never communicates that then feels the other cheated because of that since its often assumed in relationship that boundaries of what is and isn't cheating is obvious and never actually communicated.

Basically what is and isn't cheating differs from relationship to relationship. And that can be miscommunicated sometimes

 

[JustGeorge]

For now... But he said it is alright if there are emotional needs to be fulfilled.

I didn't pick up that he thought it was alright for him to do so. Moreso that it happens, and that he feels the culture makes it much more taboo than it should be.

Which can be achieved without the baggage that comes with internalizing that feeling mad at being cheated on is unthoughtful and selfish.

I don't think we can correctly tell another how their thought processes should run, and what events should trigger what emotions for them.

He's been helped. He feels better.

 

[an anarchist]

For now... But he said it is alright if there are emotional needs to be fulfilled.

Allow me to elaborate.

One’s mental health must be a priority. The cheater shouldn’t be in a relationship with someone who has the expectation of monogamy. We agree on that. But there’s nuance, which I think we don’t agree on.

Someone might feel trapped in a relationship. Maybe their partner threatens to self delete, as is often the case with youngins. Maybe their love for their partner traps them. But at the same time, if the emotional needs of the cheater is not met, it is better for the cheater to meet the need in my opinion. I realize this is controversial, but let me continue. The cheater should absolutely get out of the relationship. But we should understand if this does not happen immediately as would be preferred. People are flawed. We shouldn’t demonize cheaters, we should get them to a better place to where they aren’t in a position to emotionally hurt themselves and their partner.

If someone is “trapped” in a relationship. I sympathize with them if they cheat. We need to offer cheaters sympathy, not hate.

 

[JustGeorge]

I can think of one. When you have an issue with communication and miscommunicate. Some folk who are poly or open and maybe even some monogamous relationships might miscommunicate on what is and isn't cheating and cross a line unintentionally. And example might be a partner that is ok with sex outside the relationship but only if there's no romantic feelings involved might miscommunicate that and so the partner thinks it's ok to have a romantic but really it's not. Or the partner would be ok for the other to watch porn and sexting and phone sex folk yet doesnt like the idea of friends sending photos/vids. The partner might not communicate the no photos/vids part because they didn't think about it. Or a person might feel free porn is ok but no phone sex even if it's a professional and no messaging only fans models. But never communicates that then feels the other cheated because of that since its often assumed in relationship that boundaries of what is and isn't cheating is obvious and never actually communicated.

Basically what is and isn't cheating differs from relationship to relationship. And that can be miscommunicated sometimes

I agree.

While I would be deeply hurt either way, I would be more upset if my spouse went to a strip club and payed someone to 'entertain' him than if he lost in in the heat of a moment and was unfaithful.

One was unintentional... the other seems ridiculous to me. "Its okay, I paid them to turn me on, so its fine."

Most people look at me funny for this, because of cultural norms on what's acceptable and what's not. But, its how I feel.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Perhaps I’m just so cold to having trust broken at this point in my life. I expect it ya know? And I willingly forgive it. When I didn’t forgive, I had no one.

I'm sorry that that has happened to you. Trust is effectively impossible to ever repair. Forgiveness is possible, but not so easy to regain trust.

I just ask people (as I've tried to teach my children), consider it from the other person's point of view.
I never liked those wrist bands that say "WWJD" . If I wore a band, it would be "WSYSD" (What Should Your Spouse Do?). If she saw some hot beef-cake at the gym, or a really relatable guy in her office, would you want her to walk over and start flirting with him? No? Then don't do it yourself.

Polyamory = Fine
Adultery = Scum

 

[an anarchist]

I agree.

While I would be deeply hurt either way, I would be more upset if my spouse went to a strip club and payed someone to 'entertain' him than if he lost in in the heat of a moment and was unfaithful.

One was unintentional... the other seems ridiculous to me. "Its okay, I paid them to turn me on, so its fine."

Most people look at me funny for this, because of cultural norms on what's acceptable and what's not. But, it’s how I feel.

It used to be odd to me that some of the wives down where I live would let their men go to the strip clubs and men let their ladies work there. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ times a changing

 

[VoidCat]

I agree.

While I would be deeply hurt either way, I would be more upset if my spouse went to a strip club and payed someone to 'entertain' him than if he lost in in the heat of a moment and was unfaithful.

One was unintentional... the other seems ridiculous to me. "Its okay, I paid them to turn me on, so its fine."

Most people look at me funny for this, because of cultural norms on what's acceptable and what's not. But, its how I feel.

Yeah and some folk think going to a strip club is fine but don't sleep with anyone.

And a big problem I notice is not everyone talks with their partner on what is and isnt cheating when that differs from relationship to relationship. It's more common not to when monogamous but not when poly to have those kinds of convos. I donr think it's actually that common to discuss for example on what is and isn't cheating regarding porn usage for example.

It's very easy to cheat when you don't communicate what is or isn't cheating and just assume. Happens quite frequently. Some of it is obvious- sleeping with someone else without your partner knowing is a guarntee you cheated. But a lot of it isnt.

 

[PureX]

 

[an anarchist]

This used to be my theme song lol

 

[Spice]

I have come to understand that there is a lot of nuance to infidelity.

People being hurt or offended by infidelity is a result of societal norms. The cheater is literally doing nothing to the “victim”.

What is the cheater doing that hurts the other person? Literally nothing. It is the other persons own attitudes that causes them pain.

And this is where I see the definition of "adultery" as being on the fence. I've been in a "monogamous" marriage and was cheated on continuously. As you stated, it wasn't about me. It destroyed the relationship long before the actual marriage.

I have also been in an "open" relationship that lasted just as long as the previous marriage. It ended when the trust previously established for the relationship was shattered.

IMO, even in the biblical use of the word adultery, it is not about the physical act of intimacy which is an animalistic feature of human life, but the soul connection of trust that is a spiritual feature of humanity's image of God.

So, "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" as long as you do not break the bond established in mutual trust. Committing "adultery" could be accomplished by simply discussing confidences outside of the relationship. It all depends on was that soul-connecting trust happens to be.

 

[JustGeorge]

It used to be odd to me that some of the wives down where I live would let their men go to the strip clubs and men let their ladies work there. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ times a changing

I couldn't put up with it, but to each their own.

 

[Koldo]

I didn't pick up that he thought it was alright for him to do so. Moreso that it happens, and that he feels the culture makes it much more taboo than it should be.

He said it right here:

It is a two way street imo. And at the end of the day, if you aren’t getting your emotional needs fulfilled in a closed monogamous relationship, you are doing yourself and your mental health a disservice by maintaining loyalty and/or the relationship.

You gotta take care of yourself at the end of the day. So even if it is the “failings” of the adulterer, why be mad? Because they took care of their needs?

To him, cheating to take care of your needs is fine.

I don't think we can correctly tell another how their thought processes should run, and what events should trigger what emotions for them.

And yet this thought process of his is a consequence of "therapy".

He's been helped. He feels better.

At what cost?
Imagine the following scenario: A rape victim goes to therapy and there she becomes convinced that what she went through was her own fault. She makes peace with that and feels better. Do you see anything wrong happening in this situation? If so, what and why?

 

[Koldo]

Allow me to elaborate.

One’s mental health must be a priority. The cheater shouldn’t be in a relationship with someone who has the expectation of monogamy. We agree on that. But there’s nuance, which I think we don’t agree on.

Someone might feel trapped in a relationship. Maybe their partner threatens to self delete, as is often the case with youngins.

How is cheating, the one thing that when found triggers all kinds of strong emotions, going to be the sensible choice on this case?

Maybe their love for their partner traps them.

Why would they cheat if there is so much love?

But at the same time, if the emotional needs of the cheater is not met, it is better for the cheater to meet the need in my opinion. I realize this is controversial, but let me continue. The cheater should absolutely get out of the relationship. But we should understand if this does not happen immediately as would be preferred. People are flawed. We shouldn’t demonize cheaters, we should get them to a better place to where they aren’t in a position to emotionally hurt themselves and their partner.

I have never said anything about demonizing people. But criticizing, surely.

If someone is “trapped” in a relationship. I sympathize with them if they cheat. We need to offer cheaters sympathy, not hate.

Sympathy for what? For doing so wrong when they could have done much better?

 

[Koldo]

I agree.

While I would be deeply hurt either way, I would be more upset if my spouse went to a strip club and payed someone to 'entertain' him than if he lost in in the heat of a moment and was unfaithful.

One was unintentional... the other seems ridiculous to me. "Its okay, I paid them to turn me on, so its fine."

Most people look at me funny for this, because of cultural norms on what's acceptable and what's not. But, its how I feel.

What does being 'lost in in the heat of a moment' mean? How can it be unintentional to be unfaithful on this case?

 

[JustGeorge]

He said it right here:



To him, cheating to take care of your needs is fine.

I read it more as they oughta not maintain the relationship. My understanding could be incorrect.

And yet this thought process of his is a consequence of "therapy".

Therapy is supposed to make it so you can navigate the world.

How that looks is going to be vastly different for different people.

We're not all cookie cutters upstairs. What works for one won't work for another.

At what cost?
Imagine the following scenario: A rape victim goes to therapy and there she becomes convinced that what she went through was her own fault. She makes peace with that and feels better. Do you see anything wrong happening in this situation? If so, what and why?

I would hope any therapist would talk differently to a rape victim than a young couple in an unhappy relationship in which one person 'stepped out' to cope.

Those are really different scenarios. I prefer not to play 'what if'.

 

[JustGeorge]

What does being 'lost in in the heat of a moment' mean? How can it be unintentional to be unfaithful on this case?

People get caught up in emotions. Perhaps a person was hurting and an outsider took advantage of it. Perhaps the outsider didn't have respect for the person's relationship, and put them in a position in which they'd be easy to seduce. Perhaps they were just feeling sorry for themselves and did something stupid.

Maybe poor judgement call would fit better than unintentional, but people screw up.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, I think a marriage or a relationship can be polyamorous but both parties should discuss this before they get married or get into a relationship. Otherwise, someone is likely to get hurt.

 

[Koldo]

I read it more as they oughta not maintain the relationship. My understanding could be incorrect.

He specifically mentioned both situations being acceptable: "if you aren’t getting your emotional needs fulfilled in a closed monogamous relationship, you are doing yourself and your mental health a disservice by maintaining loyalty and/or the relationship."

Both ending the relationship (and we all agree on this one) and cheating.

Therapy is supposed to make it so you can navigate the world.

How that looks is going to be vastly different for different people.

We're not all cookie cutters upstairs. What works for one won't work for another.

And when the way you learn to navigate the world is deeply flawed, the therapist has done a disservice to you.

I would hope any therapist would talk differently to a rape victim than a young couple in an unhappy relationship in which one person 'stepped out' to cope.

Those are really different scenarios. I prefer not to play 'what if'.

But you do see something wrong in the scenario I presented, right? Whatever it is, the same is applicable to this case. The quality of a treatment can not judged solely by whether the patient is feeling better.