"American Ethnocentrism" is still a problem in the U.S

[Kilgore Trout]

Ah, yet I see confusing the recognition of white privilege as equating it to white guilt is one of those Euro-centric assumptions.

Nope, there are plenty of people who have privilege and no guilt, and vice-versa. As someone who came from neither, I just find it amusing when they go hand-in-hand.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

We each decide (albeit imperfectly) for ourselves.

We do that, true. And I agree that it is imperfect. I contend that it isn't the best way to approach the problem. To respond to your examples...

Examples:
When co-worker Marla complained that blacks couldn't get ahead at our employer's company, I dismissed her charge because her problem was that she always showed up an hour or two late every day.

One possibility - not assuming you do this - is that Marla may not be forgiven as easily for showing up to work late every day as a person of privilege. My mother was passed up for promotions for years to males who showed up late and took personal days off no less than her, and who's annual and quarterly reviews were similar.

It's possible that blacks may be passed up on promotions or fired from jobs for reasons that whites would be easily forgiven for.

When young friend was sexually assaulted by a cop, I recognize a legitimate problem with authorities treating attractive young kids worse than us (not including you in this, toots) old fogies. Ageism & lookism are real.

Are you saying you want to be sexually assaulted by a cop?

Just kidding.

My perspective on dealing with sexism and racism is having a discussion, rather than giving one person, one demographic the floor about their own experiences. Numbers count, as you are well aware, and many times the bigger picture speaks more about the current situation than what happened with one person on one day.

Many white supremacists look at the numbers narrowly on why the population of blacks in prisons as evidence of the inherent violence present in people of color. It confirms their own biases on what they think of the assumed inferiority blacks.

Trickier example:
We hear from some that Obama's lack of presidential success is due to white racism.
To them this is real. To me it's bogus.

We see eye to eye on this. IMO a look at the growth of the surveillance state at an exponential rate is a sign of major success of what I see as an agenda. However, I don't think that explains conversations with other white acquaintances and family who believe they're in "good company" and discuss how they're not racist but.... that Obama is operating from the agenda of "black entitlement that so many other ****ers think they should get."

They won't say it in open forums or around people who are either black or are close to blacks. At my husband's last family reunion, one couple left for a bit after talking with the reunion organizers about racist comments being made about some of their bi-racial children. While they were gone, the organizers walked around saying that when the family returns, don't make those comments around them. But we'll keep an eye out to see if they return so that they don't hear them.

Some people would view that as considerate. Others would see it as underhanded. But we can't come to any conclusion unless it was out in the open about what is actually said, and if it is based on opinion, fact, or a narrowed perspective.

I don't think anyone here disputes these very real problems. But the fact that Santa (fictional character) is white is not a problem of privilege or ethnocentrism any more than the fact that Blade (fictional character) is black.

On RF I've seen members dispute the phenomenon of "driving while black" on every occasion it's been brought up. Or at least saying that the prevalence is negligible. None who have disputed it has been people of color from what I have read.

Is Blade celebrated or a part of the culture in the manner that Santa is? If Jesus was not white - as accepted by the vast majority of people who understand the ethnicity - then why is he depicted in movies and artwork overwhelmingly as white? What happenes when Jesus is depicted with brown skin to the masses?

 

[Revoltingest]

We do that, true. And I agree that it is imperfect. I contend that it isn't the best way to approach the problem. To respond to your examples...
One possibility - not assuming you do this - is that Marla may not be forgiven as easily for showing up to work late every day as a person of privilege. My mother was passed up for promotions for years to males who showed up late and took personal days off no less than her, and who's annual and quarterly reviews were similar.

Don't you be make'n excuses for Marla based upon someone else's woes.
If she wanted to get ahead, she should show up on time like the rest of us.
But if she can't be bothered to do what it takes to get ahead, I can't take her seriously.
(She really exists. We carpooled....or were supposed to. She only showed up on time twice.
She was all about white privilege, & oft wondered why not all white folk weren't millionaires.)

It's possible that blacks may be passed up on promotions or fired from jobs for reasons that whites would be easily forgiven for.

But "possible" is no excuse for not even trying.

Are you saying you want to be sexually assaulted by a cop?
Just kidding.

No....not kidding!

My perspective on dealing with sexism and racism is having a discussion, rather than giving one person, one demographic the floor about their own experiences. Numbers count, as you are well aware, and many times the bigger picture speaks more about the current situation than what happened with one person on one day.

Aye, but the bigger picture comprises all the individual experiences.
But I distrust passive voice pronouncements rooted solely in a general perception.

Many white supremacists look at the numbers narrowly on why the population of blacks in prisons as evidence of the inherent violence present in people of color. It confirms their own biases on what they think of the assumed inferiority blacks.

Let's agree that many white supremacists, black supremacists, anti-sex feminists, business haters, etc, etc will hold awful views & be violent towards others. Let's also agree that none of those people are posting here now, so we needn't dwell on extreme examples for which we have no common ground.

We see eye to eye on this. IMO a look at the growth of the surveillance state at an exponential rate is a sign of major success of what I see as an agenda. However, I don't think that explains conversations with other white acquaintances and family who believe they're in "good company" and discuss how they're not racist but.... that Obama is operating from the agenda of "black entitlement that so many other ****ers think they should get."
They won't say it in open forums or around people who are either black or are close to blacks. At my husband's last family reunion, one couple left for a bit after talking with the reunion organizers about racist comments being made about some of their bi-racial children. While they were gone, the organizers walked around saying that when the family returns, don't make those comments around them. But we'll keep an eye out to see if they return so that they don't hear them.
Some people would view that as considerate. Others would see it as underhanded. But we can't come to any conclusion unless it was out in the open about what is actually said, and if it is based on opinion, fact, or a narrowed perspective.
On RF I've seen members dispute the phenomenon of "driving while black" on every occasion it's been brought up. Or at least saying that the prevalence is negligible. None who have disputed it has been people of color from what I have read.

It seems that you're defending the existence of DWB to us (here in the thread) as though we deny it.
I don't see denial here.

Is Blade celebrated or a part of the culture in the manner that Santa is?

Blade's movies gross more than Santas.

If Jesus was not white - as accepted by the vast majority of people who understand the ethnicity - then
why is he depicted in movies and artwork overwhelmingly as white? What happenes when Jesus is depicted with brown skin to the masses?

Jesus is always white in the movies & pics I've seen. (As I've oft pointed out, he looks a lot like Jim Caviezel.) Anyway, Jesus's whiteness is a pretty mild example of white privilege. Moreover, black Jesus isn't unheard of here. You have my permission to make him any color or gender you want, btw.

 

[Apex]

I think people confuse "privilege" with guilt. It's not an indictment. It's not a charge of supremacy. It's an unearned advantage.

Straights can afford to walk up to any judge in any part of the country and ask for a marriage license. Homosexuals in many parts of the country asking for a same sex marriage licenses have to jump through hoops just because of their orientation.

Men can afford to dress how they want in many parts of the country and not be at all concerned for their safety or security. They can walk around unaware of the concept of "showing some skin" and "getting attacked." Women are not afforded that luxury in many parts of the country and in many households.

Whites can afford to be unaware of driving without getting stopped by a police officer just because they "look suspicious" or if they're "on the wrong side of town." Whites are not affected as much as people of color with the "stop and frisk" laws. People of color are affected daily by phenomenons as "driving while black" and racial profiling.

Privilege is the advantage of being unaware of issues faced by people who are at an unearned disadvantage. And privilege offers the advantage to scoff at "mild or stretchy claims" by saying they don't exist. True...they don't exist for privileged people, but saying they don't exist for people of privilege does not mean they don't exist at all.

Here is where many people differ with your self. All of this "privilege" you describe is simply due to the presence of bigoted (for lack of a better word) or immoral people. I do not view the presence of these kind of people as somehow "privileging" myself. I view it in what I consider to be much more simple terms, there are bigoted and otherwise idiotic/evil people in the world. They exist. But we can fight against them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think people confuse not having a specific disadvantage with having some broad type of privilege. This is also one of the areas where peoples' generalizations tend to be not very useful. In this United States, trying to generalize a person's overall privilege or disadvantage according to being black or white is generally less useful than using attributes such as education, age, income, net worth, career, and zip code.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Don't you be make'n excuses for Marla based upon someone else's woes.
If she wanted to get ahead, she should show up on time like the rest of us.
But if she can't be bothered to do what it takes to get ahead, I can't take her seriously.
(She really exists. We carpooled....or were supposed to. She only showed up on time twice.
She was all about white privilege, & oft wondered why not all white folk weren't millionaires.)

But "possible" is no excuse for not even trying.

I think you missed my point. Is it possible that straight white men are excused more often for the same offense? I'm not excusing Marla for her consistent tardiness. I'm asking if others are excused for the same offense.

No....not kidding!

Well, if you want to be assaulted by a cop, I wish you luck. :clap

Aye, but the bigger picture comprises all the individual experiences.
But I distrust passive voice pronouncements rooted solely in a general perception.

What about numbers and studies offered by the social sciences? And if they corroborate with collections of personal anecdotes?

Let's agree that many white supremacists, black supremacists, anti-sex feminists, business haters, etc, etc will hold awful views & be violent towards others. Let's also agree that none of those people are posting here now, so we needn't dwell on extreme examples for which we have no common ground.

That's cool.

It seems that you're defending the existence of DWB to us (here in the thread) as though we deny it.
I don't see denial here.

No, but I see that it isn't being considered relevant to the discussion. I challenged the notion of people playing the race card, or that there is a general notion of mild disadvantages without any examples of these occurrences happening overall by people of color. So I brought up that example and it's being ignored as relevant to the problem of white privilege.

This is what I'm talking about. The fact that it's brought up and either ignored, dismissed, glossed over, or categorically denied.

So, perhaps I should ask: Is DWB an example of white privilege? And is it an example of the problems presented in the OP? If not, why not?

Blade's movies gross more than Santas.

Each as an average? Or as a whole? There have only been three Blade's movies and many more Santa movies. And the first Blade movie of the trilogy grossed less worldwide than the first installment of the Santa Clause (Tim Allen) trilogy.

Source: Blade - Box Office History

Jesus is always white in the movies & pics I've seen. (As I've oft pointed out, he looks a lot like Jim Caviezel.) Anyway, Jesus's whiteness is a pretty mild example of white privilege. Moreover, black Jesus isn't unheard of here. You have my permission to make him any color or gender you want, btw.

Why is it a mild example?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Here is where many people differ with your self. All of this "privilege" you describe is simply due to the presence of bigoted (for lack of a better word) or immoral people. I do not view the presence of these kind of people as somehow "privileging" myself. I view it in what I consider to be much more simple terms, there are bigoted and otherwise idiotic/evil people in the world. They exist. But we can fight against them.

If that's true, does that mean that there is no such thing as anti-LDS attitudes being a pervasive problem in the U.S.? Like Mormons aren't actually Christian? Or that people would never vote for Mitt Romney specifically because of the magic underwear?

So....no Protestant privilege, then. Gotcha.

On a more serious note, I don't apologize that I fight against anti-LDS attitudes that exist that marginalize Mormons in society. I'm as vocal in that venue as I am for feminist issues.

 

[Apex]

If that's true, does that mean that there is no such thing as anti-LDS attitudes being a pervasive problem in the U.S.? Like Mormons aren't actually Christian? Or that people would never vote for Mitt Romney specifically because of the magic underwear?

So....no Protestant privilege, then. Gotcha.

On a more serious note, I don't apologize that I fight against anti-LDS attitudes that exist that marginalize Mormons in society. I'm as vocal in that venue as I am for feminist issues.

I do not view the existence of anti-LDS attitudes as privileging non-LDS people.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I do not view the existence of anti-LDS attitudes as privileging non-LDS people.

I do. Protestant presidential candidates don't have to be concerned with having to deal with magic underwear comments and having to waste time answering them and addressing them or finding larger audiences making that a consideration on whether or not to vote for said candidate.

Much like male politicians don't have to worry about the appearance of their legs as a qualifier for public office by voters. As much as I was annoyed with people talking about Sarah Palin's hair or Hillary Clinton's thighs, I was annoyed with the people that loved to draw attention to Mitt Romney's religious practices that are not the norm.

Again, privilege isn't a crime. It's simply an unearned advantage. Privileged people don't owe anything, they aren't guilty of any crimes by simply being privileged. They just have a leg up.

 

[YmirGF]

I do not view the existence of anti-LDS attitudes as privileging non-LDS people.

You're probably just in denial.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I think a person would have to be blind not to see DWB or stop and frisk as racial profiling. Perhaps this practice might have something to do with the black prision population.

Of course I believe the lack of outrage of black on black crime might have something to do with this as well. You just don't see Jesse Jackson or Albert Sharpton railing against anything but people other than his own race.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think you missed my point. Is it possible that straight white men are excused more often for the same offense? I'm not excusing Marla for her consistent tardiness. I'm asking if others are excused for the same offense.

I purposely missed your point cuz you didn't address mine (IMO).

Well, if you want to be assaulted by a cop, I wish you luck. :clap

Want to? Heavens, no!

What about numbers and studies offered by the social sciences? And if they corroborate with collections of personal anecdotes?

Even though it seems we're arguing against each other, we both agree that more objectivity is better. Note that studies must be judged, since there are some badly agenda laden ones out there (even from my alma mater). I recall one which concluded that hiring the most qualified person for the job is a sign of racism (thank you, UofM).

That's cool.

Nothing about me is "cool", toots!

No, but I see that it isn't being considered relevant to the discussion. I challenged the notion of people playing the race card, or that there is a general notion of mild disadvantages without any examples of these occurrences happening overall by people of color. So I brought up that example and it's being ignored as relevant to the problem of white privilege.
This is what I'm talking about. The fact that it's brought up and either ignored, dismissed, glossed over, or categorically denied.

I notice that when people take somewhat opposing perspectives, each side will ignore something they agree with, something they find insignificant, or something they find immaterial. This isn't the same as denial. You haven't directly stated that many people will erroneously or disingenuously play the race card, but I presume that you acknowledge this happens, yet find no reason to bring it up. We all have perspectives which aren't fully explored, & it's a clumsy process to grok each other. (No...."grok" doesn't mean that.)

So, perhaps I should ask: Is DWB an example of white privilege?

As commonly defined, yes. But "white privilege isn't the lens thru which I see, so I don't phrase discriminatory practices that way.

And is it an example of the problems presented in the OP? If not, why not?

Dang it! I'd forgotten all about the OP, & now you go & force me to read it.
The white Santa flap is not a problem (IMO). So what if some talking head makes a joke about him being white? If ultra-sensitive types like Jon Stewart can't perceive a joke, & lash out, the problem is with the anti-white-privilege-obsessed sticks in the mud. Jesus doesn't matter to me either. Now, DWB & SWB (shopping) issues are real nasty, & deserve our scorn.

Each as an average? Or as a whole? There have only been three Blade's movies and many more Santa movies. And the first Blade movie of the trilogy grossed less worldwide than the first installment of the Santa Clause (Tim Allen) trilogy.
Source: Blade - Box Office History

Blade kicks arsch on a per-movie basis. The point is that he's a black fictional character. Why is he black? Because he was written to be black (same reason Santa is white). But we have people making black, robotic & Asian Santas now too.

Why is it a mild example?

The color of Jesus matters little compared to racial violence, employment discrimination, housing discrimination, etc. But what else would you expect from a Bible burning heathen?

 

[Apex]

I do. Protestant presidential candidates don't have to be concerned with having to deal with magic underwear comments and having to waste time answering them and addressing them or finding larger audiences making that a consideration on whether or not to vote for said candidate.

Much like male politicians don't have to worry about the appearance of their legs as a qualifier for public office by voters. As much as I was annoyed with people talking about Sarah Palin's hair or Hillary Clinton's thighs, I was annoyed with the people that loved to draw attention to Mitt Romney's religious practices that are not the norm.

Again, privilege isn't a crime. It's simply an unearned advantage. Privileged people don't owe anything, they aren't guilty of any crimes by simply being privileged. They just have a leg up.

Again, just because someone else is bigoted against black people does not mean I am privileged. This privileged talk only gives undue power to the actions of stupid people.

 

[Revoltingest]

Again, just because someone else is bigoted against black people does not mean I am privileged. This privileged talk only gives undue power to the actions of stupid people.

And this leads to dysfunction, as my former co-worker Marla exhibited.
She so bought into her victimhood, that she strove for non-success.
It serves no one to tell people they're doomed with a handicap before they even start.
We should be able to curb injustice without simultaneously inflicting it, eh.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

LOL I'll remember this when I hear y'all talking about female privilege in the courts for child custody, domestic violence cases, and the awareness campaigns of breast cancer. No such thing as privilege there too, right?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Again, just because someone else is bigoted against black people does not mean I am privileged. This privileged talk only gives undue power to the actions of stupid people.

It seems that creating false dichotomies is still a problem in the US.

 

[Revoltingest]

LOL I'll remember this when I hear y'all talking about female privilege in the courts for child custody, domestic violence cases, and the awareness campaigns of breast cancer. No such thing as privilege there too, right?

The terms "privilege", "discrimination", "advantage" & "disadvantage" all refer to the same thing, but are different ways of describing it.
Note also that privilege, if you will, is not limited to white males:
- Black folk got into med school a lot easier than whites (when I was in school). They also got more financial aid.
- Women get better treatment by the friend of the court.
- Openly Xian black politicians will fare better in politics than atheistic white guys.
- Amerindians get free tuition at MI universities.
- Black folk don't knocked out in the polar bear game.
- Teenagers are looked upon with suspicion more so than oldsters.
- Hispanics are a noble groundskeeping minority. If one strays & behaves badly, then he becomes a "white Hispanic".
Unfairness in life is a many faceted thing.

Did you know that men also get breast cancer?
(Far more so than women getting prostate cancer.)

 

[Me Myself]

LOL I'll remember this when I hear y'all talking about female privilege in the courts for child custody, domestic violence cases, and the awareness campaigns of breast cancer. No such thing as privilege there too, right?

Reaction To Women Abusing Men In Public - YouTube

Women definetely have advantages over men in US.

At least is not like in Ecuador where they automatically by law get the children.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The terms "privilege", "discrimination", "advantage" & "disadvantage" all refer to the same thing, but are different ways of describing it.
Note also that privilege, if you will, is not limited to white males:
- Black folk got into med school a lot easier than whites (when I was in school). They also got more financial aid.
- Women get better treatment by the friend of the court.
- Openly Xian black politicians will fare better in politics than atheistic white guys.
- Amerindians get free tuition at MI universities.
- Black folk don't knocked out in the polar bear game.
- Teenagers are looked upon with suspicion more so than oldsters.
- Hispanics are a noble groundskeeping minority. If one strays & behaves badly, then he becomes a "white Hispanic".
Unfairness in life is a many faceted thing.

Did you know that men also get breast cancer?
(Far more so than women getting prostate cancer.)

Yeah, these are all good points Rev, but you have to remember this is not about being fair..... It is about getting even.

The same thing as our income tax giving head of households an income earned credit were they recieve more money than they pay in.......Income redistubution.

When it is all said and done, many white guys kick butt with one hand tied behind our backs.

There is White Priviledge, I get invited to GOP conventions and get to bum a ride on Gulfsteams. That is because I am an outspoken Conservative and a "Good Ol Boy".

Where I get upset is, the sterotype of being a racist.

We are not all born equal, I did not grow up seven foot tall and a NBA draft pick either.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is White Priviledge, I get invited to GOP conventions and get to bum a ride on Gulfsteams. That is because I am an outspoken Conservative and a "Good Ol Boy".

Imagine the celebrity you'd enjoy if you were a black conservative.

Where I get upset is, the sterotype of being a racist.
We are not all born equal, I did not grow up seven foot tall and a NBA draft pick either.

Well, aren't all you hillbilly rednecks racist?
We all know (from TV & RF):
Poor uneducated rural white folk are inbred racists.
Poor uneducated rural black folk are disadvantaged.

Before anyone gets their dander up, I'm just have'n fun with stereotypes.