An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[ImmortalFlame]

It is if it is explicitly directed at such, but unfortunately there will always be civilian casualties when targets exist within the population, unless you think this therefore guarantees whoever does this, like Hamas, immunity from attack? This kind of warfare is always bloody and messy.

I don't agree with this. I believe there is a middle ground between no military response whatsoever and explicit war crimes. Collateral damage is understandable. Blockading civilian areas, preventing aid from getting in, and indiscriminately shelling densely populated areas are not "valid military strategy" and I will not turn off my brain to allow myself to think so.

I'll ask the same question I asked earlier: Do you think Israel would apply the same level of response if Hamas were hiding amongst a civilian population of Israelis and using them as human shields. Yes or no?

 

[Kenny]

You believe you have the "TRUTH", which
inoculates against alternative views. I have
only opinions & values about human rights
(for all people, not just Israelis & Jews).

You can never have the truth if all you listen to is one-sided

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You can never have the truth if all you listen to is one-sided

I agree.

So why do you only listen to the pro-Israel side?

 

[sayak83]

I disagree, based upon the many religious arguments
I've heard over decades from both Christians & Jews.
And we hear the same arguments & vestiges thereof
erupting from leaders in both USA & Israel. We can
observe the religious leanings of those defending
Israel's oppression & war crimes....and of those
who criticize Israel for this. Religion is integral.

Other conflicts are less about religion (or not at all),
& more about culture & nationality. But the existence
of other motives doesn't preclude religion as a major
factor in this one.

What I am saying is that States have been usually given carte blanche in meting out barbaric repression against dissidents and minorities without any real action by international community. Saudi vs Houthis, Turkey vs Kurds, Srilankans vs Tamils, China vs Tibetans or Uighurs etc. We live in an era of totalitarian state power, whatever a state does is right by definition unless another more powerful state feels its in their own selfish interest to prevent it.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't agree with this. I believe there is a middle ground between no military response whatsoever and explicit war crimes. Collateral damage is understandable. Blockading civilian areas, preventing aid from getting in, and indiscriminately shelling densely populated areas are not "valid military strategy" and I will not turn off my brain to allow myself to think so.

I'll ask the same question I asked earlier: Do you think Israel would apply the same level of response if Hamas were hiding amongst a civilian population of Israelis and using them as human shields. Yes or no?

The question is not relevant given the situation is different. Hamas has set this up as the nasty Israelis killing poor Palestinians, and expecting the appropriate response from vast numbers of the public (who will naturally see any deaths as abominable), or they just made a drastic mistake in their attack and didn't expect events to escalate as to what it is. Which ever it is, Hamas is responsible for what has happened as much as the Israeli response, in my view. It might be nice to think so, but we are never free to act as if we actually are so, given we inevitably react to whatever happens and we are too often constrained by various factors too - in this instance, how and where Hamas operate from and within.

 

[Revoltingest]

You can never have the truth if all you listen to is one-sided

There is no truth...it's an illusion that the
Bible or Koran is true (IMO). Just stories
from bronze age goatherds living in a
time of different morals & myths.

I reason from values (human rights for all),
rather than scriptural prescriptions &
proscriptions that justify murder & theft, &
treat many fellow humans as less entitled.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I am saying is that States have been usually given carte blanche in meting out barbaric repression against dissidents and minorities without any real action by international community. Saudi vs Houthis, Turkey vs Kurds, Srilankans vs Tamils, China vs Tibetans or Uighurs etc. We live in an era of totalitarian state power, whatever a state does is right by definition unless another more powerful state feels its in their own selfish interest to prevent it.

"Right" is a perspective.
I argue that the USA perspective should
see Israel's honoring human rights of
Muslims equal to Jews as "right".
And oppression & war crimes as "wrong".

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The question is not relevant given the situation is different.

It's entirely relevant. Do you or do you not believe Israel would use the same level of response if Hamas were hiding amongst Israelis?

If not, then clearly the issue of "Well, the human shields got in the way of their bullets" isn't really true. The issue is that "those human shields are Palestinian, so why should Israel care?"

Hamas has set this up as the nasty Israelis killing poor Palestinians, and expecting the appropriate response from vast numbers of the public (who will naturally see any deaths as abominable), or they just made a drastic mistake in their attack and didn't expect events to escalate as to what it is. Which ever it is, Hamas is responsible for what has happened as much as the Israeli response, in my view.

I fundamentally disagree, and this attitude explicitly justifies war crimes. Terrorists using human shields does not justify simply shooting the human shield. Israel's hand is still on that trigger, and I refuse to believe that a country with one of the most highly funded and modern military forces in the world had no other choice but to put civilians directly in the path of harm in response to terrorist aggression. This is mind-poison and excusing atrocities.

This is ideologically no different to excusing Hamas.

And, once again, the war crimes are not exclusive to locations where Hamas have alleged bases - but to areas not even occupied by Hamas. We know for a fact that Israel has no qualms committing atrocities against Palestinians with or without Hamas as a pretext. I refuse to excuse it.

 

[Kenny]

Then point out Israel's war crimes, not just Hamas'.


Both false. There was nothing "strategically necessary" about cutting off power to an area populated by over two million civilians, and it is a war crime.


Preventing gas from entering civilian areas is also a war crime.


Shooting missiles into civilian-populated areas without sufficient reason is.


I agree. They're both bad.


The part where you deny the war crimes of one and not the war crimes of the other. You'll never see war crimes with this level of bias.

For example, as I have repeatedly pointed out now, the IDF is not JUST targeting military targets. For decades now, war crimes and illegal annexation have been occurring on the west bank despite the fact that Hamas do not control the west bank. If your argument is that Israel's war crimes are justified because of "strategic necessity" then please explain to me why they continue to commit war crimes against where Hamas aren't even located.

And if you fail to understand this, then answer this question: Do you think Israel would apply the same level of response if Hamas were hiding amongst a civilian population of Israelis and using them as human sheilds. Yes or no?

Much I disagree with of which some has to do with what the definition of war-crimes is.

More importantly and for me, it’s the underlying push that seems to permeate this discussion. The push seems to be to concentrate and make the issue of what Israel is doing while ignoring what Hamas has done and continues to do. It gives the hue of swallowing the camel while straining on the gnat.

 

[Kenny]

I agree.

So why do you only listen to the pro-Israel side?

Do I? And you know this…. how?

 

[Kenny]

WATCH: Israel Helps Thousands Of Gazans Evacuate After Hamas Tried To Trap Them

Israel released video footage on Monday showing that its forces had managed to open an evacuation corridor in northern Gaza to allow for residents to safely move to the southern portion of the Gaza Strip as Israel conducts military operations in the north to root out Hamas. The footage comes...

www.dailywire.com

Israel working hard at helping the innocent… even when Hamas attempts to hinder the process

 

[Kenny]

There is no truth

Is that the truth?

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life within the context of my signature.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Much I disagree with of which some has to do with what the definition of war-crimes is.

War crime - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More importantly and for me, it’s the underlying push that seems to permeate this discussion. The push seems to be to concentrate and make the issue of what Israel is doing while ignoring what Hamas has done and continues to do. It gives the hue of swallowing the camel while straining on the gnat.

Firstly, that is what you are doing. We have been trying for several pages now for you to acknowledge Israeli war crimes, and you simply will not do it. You exclusively talk about the inhumanity of Hamas, as if that excuses Israel's decades of atrocities and explicit war crimes.

Secondly, to call this "swallowing the camel while straining at the gnat" is hilarious when the death count from Israeli aggression is now TEN TIMES that of what Hamas did, which - by your standard - makes YOU the one swallowing the proverbial camel, here.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Do I? And you know this…. how?

Because it's literally all you have been doing in this thread. Any time Israel's crimes are brought up, you refuse to acknowledge it or deliberately downplay it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

WATCH: Israel Helps Thousands Of Gazans Evacuate After Hamas Tried To Trap Them

Israel released video footage on Monday showing that its forces had managed to open an evacuation corridor in northern Gaza to allow for residents to safely move to the southern portion of the Gaza Strip as Israel conducts military operations in the north to root out Hamas. The footage comes...

www.dailywire.com

Israel working hard at helping the innocent… even when Hamas attempts to hinder the process

The above is a perfect example of your bias.

I would like you to cite at least one example of Israel's war crimes, please.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that the truth?

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life within the context of my signature.

Jesus sure does love war, judging
by the behavior of his followers.

 

[Orbit]

WATCH: Israel Helps Thousands Of Gazans Evacuate After Hamas Tried To Trap Them

Israel released video footage on Monday showing that its forces had managed to open an evacuation corridor in northern Gaza to allow for residents to safely move to the southern portion of the Gaza Strip as Israel conducts military operations in the north to root out Hamas. The footage comes...

www.dailywire.com

Israel working hard at helping the innocent… even when Hamas attempts to hinder the process

Israel is doing more than that:

Prominent Palestinian protester Ahed Tamimi detained by Israeli troops over 'fake' Instagram post

The 22-year-old was previously jailed as a teenager for slapping a soldier who shot her cousin. The Israeli military said she was arrested for "inciting violence and calling for terrorist activity to be carried out".

news.sky.com

Killing of Palestinian farmer adds to growing concerns over settler violence in West Bank

Since the attack against Israel by Hamas militants on Oct. 7, violence against Palestinians living in the Israeli-occupied West Bank has escalated, with at least 121 people killed.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Kenny]

War crime - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Firstly, that is what you are doing. We have been trying for several pages now for you to acknowledge Israeli war crimes, and you simply will not do it. You exclusively talk about the inhumanity of Hamas, as if that excuses Israel's decades of atrocities and explicit war crimes.

Secondly, to call this "swallowing the camel while straining at the gnat" is hilarious when the death count from Israeli aggression is now TEN TIMES that of what Hamas did, which - by your standard - makes YOU the one swallowing the proverbial camel, here.

You have just shown by your one-sided, biased and camel eating statement.

 

[Kenny]

The above is a perfect example of your bias.

I would like you to cite at least one example of Israel's war crimes, please.

Are you saying Israel shouldn’t help the innocent?

Perfect example of your bias… no matter what Israel does… they are condemned.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus sure does love war, judging
by the behavior of his followers.

Only in the biased imagination that you keep expressing.