Are All Ten Commandments Binding on WHO?

[mikmik]

Do you think God gets annoyed with people that presume to speak for Him?

YES! You see it all the time. 'Well, I know the Bible says this over and over again, but what God really wants is this..' or 'what He really meant was this...' Or how about my favorite.. 'Well, the Bible isn't 100% accurate, some things are correct writings, some things are not. I happen to know which are correct and which are not, so listen to MY wisdom!'

If you were speaking of my comment,, it was merely a personal observation.

mik

 

[mikmik]

Yid613 responded to post 11. All nations will indeed worship the one true God... they will learn of the truth of the Torah... they will exhibit the same brotherly love as Jews are expected to exhibit... helping the poor, the widow, the orphan, etc...


"keeping from defiling the sabbath"... for the Jews this means properly observing the sabbath... for non-Jews, it means not preventing the Jews from properly observing the sabbath.

Well, you are not Yid613, so I didn't know if you read back through posts or not.

When I read in the Bible, that all families of the earth will come to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and the punishment for all nations that do not keep the Feast of Tabernacles will be no rain and plagues,, I took that at face value. I didn't know that, when God said that all families and all nations, what God really meant to say was all Jewish families and all Jewish nations...? And when God said that from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,, He really meant all Jewish flesh, and the others will not get in the way??

Sorry, I just can't just can't buy this implied meaning. I keep the weekly Sabbath, as well as the annual Sabbaths, and delight in them. I don't demand that all do it, everyone will come in their own time, as the Father calls them. I don't begrudge anyone the pleasure of doing so either. Do you think that I, because I am not Jewish, do not have the right to, or just don't have to, or what? I really don't understand.

mik

 

[Arlanbb]

MIKMIK ~ said "I happen to know which are correct and which are not [having to do with correct scripture] so listen to my wisdom." That is great to know. I have been trying to figure out which verson of Jesus's early life is correct and which is wrong, Maybe you can help. Matt 2 give one story of Jesus early life, wise men, star, Harod going to kill him, Children killed in Bethleham, family flees to egypt etc. and then we have Luke 2 version- NO wise men, NO star, NO Harod, NO fleeing to Egypt, NO problems at all. Infact the family stays around in Bethleham for 40 days so that Jesus can get circumcised and the family can get purified at the Templed according to the law of the Lord. The family meets Simeon and the prophetess Anna and then the family returned to their home in Nazareth. Which of these two stories is the correct one MIKMIK? arlan

 

[mikmik]

MIKMIK ~ said "I happen to know which are correct and which are not [having to do with correct scripture] so listen to my wisdom." That is great to know. I have been trying to figure out which verson of Jesus's early life is correct and which is wrong, Maybe you can help. Matt 2 give one story of Jesus early life, wise men, star, Harod going to kill him, Children killed in Bethleham, family flees to egypt etc. and then we have Luke 2 version- NO wise men, NO star, NO Harod, NO fleeing to Egypt, NO problems at all. Infact the family stays around in Bethleham for 40 days so that Jesus can get circumcised and the family can get purified at the Templed according to the law of the Lord. The family meets Simeon and the prophetess Anna and then the family returned to their home in Nazareth. Which of these two stories is the correct one MIKMIK? arlan

Well now,, that's just funny!! Sounds like a pompous and ignorant thing to say, doesn't it? Well I didn't say it (about me). I was summing up what appears to be the overwhelming attitude of people in all of these topics that I have read. 'I happen to know which are correct... so listen to MY wisdom' was a part of the quotes, not an additional statement of my own. Sorry for the confusion. I believe all scripture to be correct, even if I can't understand it completely,, that just means I have more studying to do.

As for Jesus' birth, without spending the time going back to read both stories (sorry, pressed for time right now), I'd have to put my money on both being true. Why in the world would we be given four gospels that say the exact same thing? Each person obviously was a witness to their own timeline, and their own events, but all still inspired God. So some things are in one gospel but not all, some things are in all, but all happened. Have you ever seen four people who witnessed an event get together to tell their view point, and put it together, and what each knows fills in what the other didn't? They would all be correct,, just different view points. It all fits together. I do know that one misconception that some people have is that Herod ordered the slaughter of the babies right after Jesus was born, therefore not allowing the time for the other events recorded. This is incorrect. In Luke when the angels announced Jesus to the shepherds, they referred to the baby lying in a manger. In Matt 2, Jesus is refereed to as a child when they are told to leave. Harod ordered boys 2 and under be killed because that corresponded with the Magi seeing the star, so Jesus would have been a boy, close to two years old at that point. I am only guessing that you were referring to this event in the timeline. I don't know. I saw some of your other posts, and you seem pretty sure and comfortable with opinions, even though you asked for help. I don't know that I can prove anything to you if you have your mind made up... like any of us that have our minds made up.

mik

 

[Yid613]

Well, you are not Yid613, so I didn't know if you read back through posts or not.

When I read in the Bible, that all families of the earth will come to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and the punishment for all nations that do not keep the Feast of Tabernacles will be no rain and plagues,, I took that at face value. I didn't know that, when God said that all families and all nations, what God really meant to say was all Jewish families and all Jewish nations...? And when God said that from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,, He really meant all Jewish flesh, and the others will not get in the way??

Sorry, I just can't just can't buy this implied meaning. I keep the weekly Sabbath, as well as the annual Sabbaths, and delight in them. I don't demand that all do it, everyone will come in their own time, as the Father calls them. I don't begrudge anyone the pleasure of doing so either. Do you think that I, because I am not Jewish, do not have the right to, or just don't have to, or what? I really don't understand.

mik

Nations implies everyone.
There was a convent made after the flood with Noah that applies to all the Nations. This is the Seven Noahide Laws that are incumbent on everyone. There was also a convent made at Mt. Sinai with the Jews. This is the 613 Commandments of the Torah that only the Jews are required to keep. So there is a convent with both the Jews and Nations, but a different one. In the end both Jews and Righteous Gentiles have a place in the World to Come.

Only the Seven Law of Noah are incumbent on you. You need not keep the Sabbath or any of the other laws. However some of these you may keep to gain additional merit. By the way what is the Annual Sabbath?

And it will come to pass that everyone left of the nations who came up against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the festival of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whoever of all the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to prostrate himself to the King, the Lord of Hosts-upon them there shall be no rain. - Zechariah 14:16-17

This is a prophecy describing the repentance of the Nations who will attack Jerusalem. Those who do not repent will receive no rain. Rain often time means blessing.

 

[mikmik]

Nations implies everyone.
There was a convent made after the flood with Noah that applies to all the Nations. This is the Seven Noahide Laws that are incumbent on everyone. There was also a convent made at Mt. Sinai with the Jews. This is the 613 Commandments of the Torah that only the Jews are required to keep. So there is a convent with both the Jews and Nations, but a different one. In the end both Jews and Righteous Gentiles have a place in the World to Come.

Only the Seven Law of Noah are incumbent on you. You need not keep the Sabbath or any of the other laws. However some of these you may keep to gain additional merit. By the way what is the Annual Sabbath?

If I keep the 10 commandments, not just the letter, but in the spirit that they were intended, am I not keeping the other as well? I do not keep any of these for merit, I do these as an act of love towards the Father that gave these, (John 14.15, 21; 1 John 5.3)and because I know that Jesus was the perfect example of righteousness, and God was pleased with Him, and I wish to please my Father as well. At the end of the day, I am not upset becuase, rats, I broke another rule,,, I have remorse for sinning because I know that each sin hurts the Father, and that is most certainly not my goal.

The Annual Sabbaths.. Feast of Tabernacles was mentioned, and that is one of them that I keep,, that is also referred to as a Sabbath. I also keep the Last Great Day, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of Pentecost.. all annual Sabbaths,, or Holy Days. Some of these are kept by Jews, are they not?

mik

 

[Arlanbb]

MIKMIK ~ Oh shucks here I thought you knew it all. First of all the 4 gospels were not written by eyewitness so your analysis is worthless, and we really don't know the writters real names. Originally the people doing the Canon wanted Luke as the only story but the people of the canon could make up there minds which to leave out so to satisfy all they include all 4. Second you must have forgotten that when a child is born in Israel they are 1 year old so a child up to the age of 2 in really living it its first year. So both stories are about a child that is living dueing its first year. It is not 2 years old like we talk about. Maybe you need to reread Luke 2 and Matt 2 so you have the two different stories right in your mind. Luke tells a completely different story than Matt. Luke wrote that Jesus family went directly home after the meeting in Jerusalen Temple and they stayed not over 40 days in the area, Matt say they ran off to Egypt before they went home. I'm sure that the writers were not there when Jesus was born so the stories are really second or third hand information. That is why they are so mixed up. That is not my opinion, that is what Luke and Matt says. arlan

 

[Dunemeister]

MIKMIK ~ Oh shucks here I thought you knew it all. First of all the 4 gospels were not written by eyewitness so your analysis is worthless, and we really don't know the writters real names. Originally the people doing the Canon wanted Luke as the only story but the people of the canon could make up there minds which to leave out so to satisfy all they include all 4. Second you must have forgotten that when a child is born in Israel they are 1 year old so a child up to the age of 2 in really living it its first year. So both stories are about a child that is living dueing its first year. It is not 2 years old like we talk about. Maybe you need to reread Luke 2 and Matt 2 so you have the two different stories right in your mind. Luke tells a completely different story than Matt. Luke wrote that Jesus family went directly home after the meeting in Jerusalen Temple and they stayed not over 40 days in the area, Matt say they ran off to Egypt before they went home. I'm sure that the writers were not there when Jesus was born so the stories are really second or third hand information. That is why they are so mixed up. That is not my opinion, that is what Luke and Matt says. arlan

Man, and I thought I could go on off-topic rants. I see I have competition.

 

[mikmik]

MIKMIK ~ Oh shucks here I thought you knew it all. First of all the 4 gospels were not written by eyewitness so your analysis is worthless

Oh, well, that was all very nice of you! So I think I will stand by what I originally said as it really appears to apply...You see it all the time.. (people speaking for God, correcting God)... "' Or how about my favorite.. 'Well, the Bible isn't 100% accurate, some things are correct writings, some things are not. I happen to know which are correct and which are not, so listen to MY wisdom!'"... "Well now,, that's just funny!! Sounds like a pompous and ignorant thing to say, doesn't it?... I believe all scripture to be correct, even if I can't understand it completely,, that just means I have more studying to do."

Thanks for setting me straight. I just wish that someone could set God straight so that He could finally get it right!!

mik

 

[Arlanbb]

MIKMIK ~ I have read the bible and I have not found one word of it that says god wrote it. I was under the impresion that men wrote it. Maybe you and I are reading different bibles? arlan

 

[mikmik]

MIKMIK ~ I have read the bible and I have not found one word of it that says god wrote it. I was under the impresion that men wrote it. Maybe you and I are reading different bibles? arlan

2 Tim 3.14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Looking around the world today at the work man has done in his own wisdom, I feel quite confident that man is completely incapable of writing a book that would have the potential to meet the criteria listed here. The phrase 'Word of God' is all over the Bible, and it is called the Word of God for a reason.

Revelation specifically states that the whole book is the revelation of Jesus, and that He Himself gave the words in this book to John. People for some reason call it the revelation of John.. I don't know why,, it is stated clearly right there, perhaps you are right, and we are all reading different Bibles.

Rev 1.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

I do know that every one is BIG on faith and love, love, love, faith, faith, loooooove!! That applies, as far as most people are concerned, when they use their wisdom to wipe away scriptures, somehow. I don't understand that.. faith and love authorize us to re-write, pick and choose, or simple delete scripture??But having faith in the love of our Father to provide us with the adequate armor/instruction/proof/wishes/insight to the mind of God, to love us enough not to lie to us, to not steer us in the wrong direction,, it isn't there. Having the love in their hearts for the Father enough to simply listen to Him, at least try to please Him by at least trying to obey the commandments that He gave us (not for His sake, but our own!)... Just not there!! Why? If it doesn't match their own selfish wants and desires for what they see as needed for our own lives,, or if the wisdom of God just isn't up to the standards of their own.. then that particular word, lesson, book, etc.. doesn't count because... (they just know better?) Man, talk about treading dangerous waters!

Okay, someone go ahead and tell me why the books of Timothy and Revelation don't count and/or are in error, and that I shouldn't have faith in the words of my Father,, Come on,, surely someone out there is wise beyond their years and simply knows better.

mik

 

[Arlanbb]

MIK ~ I ask you a simple question and you dance all around it. Show me one scripture that was written by God himself. If I write a book and put my name on it then every word I wrote was written by Arlan. I don't see one book that had the name of GOD on it like Joshua or like the 1st book of Samuel [Samuel really didn't write the 1st book named after him - see page 391 of Harpers Study Bible RSV]
As for the "Word of God" being all over the bible does not mean that God wrote any of those words. Man wrote the bible, not God.
2 Tim 3:16 " All scripture is given by inspiration of God" Who is saying that - Paul - who was deflocked by the Jewish Rabies a cast out from the church. In Paul's statement he is only talking about the Old Testaments because the New Testament was not written yet and that is Paul's view but who gave him the title to make that statement as if it was for real, no one. Inspration is a difficult concept for Christians. What or who is inspired? If I write a book and if i said that my writings are the Word of God does that make it true, NO. Just becaue I say it is the Word of God does not really make it the Word of God does it?
The writings of the New Testament do not provide any basis for the claim that the New Testament is inspired. The Gospels never claim to be inspired by God and the same goes for Paul's writings. So to claim that God inspired both the Old and New Testament is a very problematic position. If ALL scripture is inspired by God why is it that a few hundred years later people formed the canon and said will this scripture is good to keep and this scripture is not so we outlaw it. If ALL scripture is inspired by God how can you take away some scriptures and say they are no good??? I don't understand that kind of reasoning, is it ALL or SOME scripture is inspired by God? Or was any of it???
Did God the Father really write Timothy or Revelation???
arlan

 

[AK4]

It amazes me how some you out there despise the Word of God. you pick and chose, delete and misinterpret, add and abuse, and do whatever you can to take away from God. Why? Because you despise Him. Who wrote the ten commandments? God with his finger.

Ex 31:18 - When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
De 9:10 - The Lord gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the Lord proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.

So there you have it. Now watch how you will take away from Him again and say He didnt write one scripture.

You guys cant grasp the concept of this inspired scripture either...

Isa 28:10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:13 -But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

those who say "well you are taking that verse out of context". Really?!!! What is the context of the whole Word of God? LOVE, LOVE LOVE!!!! Thats why you can go precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little. When you understand THAT THE CONTEXT IS LOVE.


You guys despise Him and might as well be atheists. And you know who you are!!!

 

[mikmik]

MIK ~ I ask you a simple question and you dance all around it. Show me one scripture that was written by God himself. If I write a book and put my name on it then every word I wrote was written by Arlan. I don't see one book that had the name of GOD on it like Joshua or like the 1st book of Samuel [Samuel really didn't write the 1st book named after him - see page 391 of Harpers Study Bible RSV]
As for the "Word of God" being all over the bible does not mean that God wrote any of those words. Man wrote the bible, not God.
2 Tim 3:16 " All scripture is given by inspiration of God" Who is saying that - Paul - who was deflocked by the Jewish Rabies a cast out from the church. In Paul's statement he is only talking about the Old Testaments because the New Testament was not written yet and that is Paul's view but who gave him the title to make that statement as if it was for real, no one. Inspration is a difficult concept for Christians. What or who is inspired? If I write a book and if i said that my writings are the Word of God does that make it true, NO. Just becaue I say it is the Word of God does not really make it the Word of God does it?
The writings of the New Testament do not provide any basis for the claim that the New Testament is inspired. The Gospels never claim to be inspired by God and the same goes for Paul's writings. So to claim that God inspired both the Old and New Testament is a very problematic position. If ALL scripture is inspired by God why is it that a few hundred years later people formed the canon and said will this scripture is good to keep and this scripture is not so we outlaw it. If ALL scripture is inspired by God how can you take away some scriptures and say they are no good??? I don't understand that kind of reasoning, is it ALL or SOME scripture is inspired by God? Or was any of it???
Did God the Father really write Timothy or Revelation???
arlan

A secretary takes the dictation, types up the letter, even signs the boss's name sometimes, mails the letter, but it was all still the boss's thoughts and words. Same thing here. You asked for one claim, I answered you. You danced around my answers and started telling me how you, in your wisdom, know better.. thanks for not disappointing.

I think my belief in the Word of God is one of the least complicated hear,, The Holy Bible is complete and perfect as it is in it's original text.. period. I'm sorry that is so confusing to you. I know that God loves me enough to show me the right path, to provide Word that I need, to give me His Spirit so that my eyes may be open to understanding. I love Him enough to trust in Him, and to have the faith that He is quite capable of these things, even when He has to do some of them through imperfect humans, and even when they go beyond my understanding. This is why I keep the commandments to the best of my human ability, in word and spirit.

mik

 

[Dunemeister]

It amazes me how some you out there despise the Word of God. you pick and chose, delete and misinterpret, add and abuse, and do whatever you can to take away from God. Why? Because you despise Him.

Dude, this is a religious DEBATE. Let's try not to misrepresent your opponents. And also, let's try to stay on topic, which is "On whom are the ten commandments binding"? That is, assuming God wrote them, on whom do they have authority? On everyone? On the Jews only? On Jews and Christians? If you have something useful to say in that connection, please share. Otherwise....

 

[AK4]

Dude, this is a religious DEBATE. Let's try not to misrepresent your opponents. And also, let's try to stay on topic, which is "On whom are the ten commandments binding"? That is, assuming God wrote them, on whom do they have authority? On everyone? On the Jews only? On Jews and Christians? If you have something useful to say in that connection, please share. Otherwise....

I responded to what was posted just before. Technically i did stay on topic.

Heb 8:10 -For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; God wrote them on the tablets of stone--symbolizing the heart of isrealites at the time.

Eze 11:19 - I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:26 - I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
He will give all the Isreal a heart of flesh to be circumcised in the heart to follow His commandments.

And who are the true Jews in Gods eyes...

Ro 2:28 - A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
Ro 2:29 - No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
And then i could go further and show how all of mankind will be considered a Jew and be saved, but i will leave that for another thread.

Now you ask is everyone? again...

Rom 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, (i believe thats everyone now) 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised (those who believe)by faith and the uncircumcised (those who dont believe)through that same faith. (i believe that covers everyone again)31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

The answer to this whole thread is right there. We do this not by the letter but by spirit daily. So that even includes fourth commandment daily.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

See posts #11 & 12.. It is very clear that Israel was given the commandments, but then they were extended to all as the Gentiles were invited to be a part of the covenant of Abraham,, as the spiritual seed of Abraham. There are several verses there showing that all nations will be a part of the covenant, and God's ways of righteousness. (commandments.. laws)

mik

Yet the New Testament (Galations I believe) says that believers are grafted into the seed of Abraham and not into Judaism. Ergo, the Ten Commandment are not rules of Law for Christianity

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Oh, well, that was all very nice of you! So I think I will stand by what I originally said as it really appears to apply...You see it all the time.. (people speaking for God, correcting God)... "' Or how about my favorite.. 'Well, the Bible isn't 100% accurate, some things are correct writings, some things are not. I happen to know which are correct and which are not, so listen to MY wisdom!'"... "Well now,, that's just funny!! Sounds like a pompous and ignorant thing to say, doesn't it?... I believe all scripture to be correct, even if I can't understand it completely,, that just means I have more studying to do."

Thanks for setting me straight. I just wish that someone could set God straight so that He could finally get it right!!

mik

"Allscripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." II Timothy 3:16 KJV

Man obviously wrote the Bible. God inspired the men.

 

[AK4]

QUOTE FROM sandy whitelinger

"Allscripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." II Timothy 3:16 KJV

Man obviously wrote the Bible. God inspired the men.

[/quote]

You're both right. The bible and its many translation have errors (why esle you think there are so many revisions and different translations), but the original scriptures in hebrew and greek are infallible and are the true Words of God, so whats stated in the 2 tim 3:16 is correct too.

 

[pallanfred]

Peter, of whom was given the authority by Chirst to start the church (Penticost, acts 2, Cornelias, Acts 9--I think) sorry about the spelling, anyway, Peter has some interesting things to say about both, scripture, and Paul's writting. He says that the NO origin of prophecy is in the will of man, but of God, and also he says that Paul's writings are scripture. Peter's the man, and though him the gentiles were introduced into the people of God. A lot of what is written here could be absolved by reading the bible, but that is where this important discussion of "is the bible inspired" comes in. This must be debated in order to break the stale mate that is going on in this thread.