waitasec
Veteran Member
by what criteria do you determine the bible isn't man just telling you god loves you?
if you are going to answer with faith, well are you not a man?
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Are you saved?
- Thread starter kjw47
- Start date
by what criteria do you determine the bible isn't man just telling you god loves you?
if you are going to answer with faith, well are you not a man?
waitasec
Veteran Member
how do you know that (the bible) to be true?
wouldn't observing how man kind has dealt with one another be a better way of
learning how to get along and ultimately save us from ourselves?
kjw47
Well-Known Member
I can see revelation passing before the worlds eyes as we speak, written nearly 2000 years ago. yet as Gods word said--As in the days of Noah--they took no note.
Such as?
To be honest I can't figure out Revelations. Very symbolic and hidden message like.
I try to keep an open mind but because there are so many differing takes on Revelations to be honest, I'm kind of jaded against claims of understanding it.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
there are correlations between Daniel-revelation-- There are two beasts listed in revelation 13--a 7 headed beast, a two horned beast-- every world power was given the mark of a beast in Daniel also a couple- horns-- So then a two horned beast would be two govts working together as a world power-- a 7 headed beast with 10 horns( a place where govts gather) ( united nations) it says of that 7 beast--was, was not, and yet is-- the league of nations-done away with after ww2--then the united nations-- The 2 horned beast goes into the middle east region after the hidden gold( black gold) that makes that 2 beast--(the eagle-lion) -- it goes on to say they cannot buy or sell( sanctions) unless they recieve the mark of the( 7) beast. There is too much to it to try and explain 2-or 3 whole books of last day prophecys.
Nakosis you are not alone in people having different takes on Revelation.
Revelation [singular] is a revealing. A revealing of the happy ending for mankind.
Although the 16 visions are written in very vivid word pictures by comparison with the Bible as a whole we can discern Revelation.
I'll start with the ending. Please notice Rev. 22 v 2 mentioning the tree of life for the healing of the nations. In the paradisaic Garden of Eden was the first mention of a tree of life. Mentioning the 'returning', so to speak, of that tree shows fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed, and all nations of the earth would be blessed. Blessed with healing or curing of earth's nations. [ Genesis 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Rev. 22 v 2]
Revelation chapters 17, 18 are close to our day or time frame.
Satan was already cast out of the heavens bringing international 'woe' to earth.- Rev. 12 vs 9,12
'Babylon the Great' is likened to both a prostitute and a city.
A city because ancient Babylon had a counterfeit religious system
A religious kingdom over earth's kings
As a prostitute she sits upon many waters.
Waters meaning: people [Rev 17 vs 1,15; Isaiah 57 v 20]
In ancient Babylon the waters were dried up before she fell.
With Babylon the Great her religious waters [people] will dry up spiritually.
She commits 'spiritual fornication' with earth's kings [political rulers]
She has even crowned and de-throned kings, blessed wars and crusades and although not killing by herself she sends others out to kill for the political, often by using the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the altar of war.
We can also see that Babylon the Great is not the commercial world, or business world, because the merchants mourn her loss.
Mourn her loss because the political world will turn on the false religious world.
1st Thess. 5 vs 2,3 shows this will come by surprise.
Already the United Nations sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world such as with religious terrorism.
With backing the UN can prove to be God's long arm of the law to topple hypocritical religions. [Rev. 17 v 17]
As Jerusalem played false to God in the first century, Christendom [so-called Christianity] is doing the same thing today [ Matthew chapter 7]
So, the future great tribulation [Rev. 7 v 14] will begin when the political world turns on Babylon the Great or false religions. But this will lead up to Armageddon [the war to end all wars forever- Psalm 46 v 9; Isaiah 2 v 4]
The words from Jesus mouth will prove to be like a sharp executioner's sword [Rev. 19 vs 11,15; Isaiah 11 vs 3,4] and Jesus will remove the wicked [Psalm 92 v 7] before he ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
The miracles Jesus performed while on earth was a small-scale sample of what Jesus will do on a LARGE or GRAND scale during his messianic reign over a paradisaic earth when all nations will be cured or healed.
waitasec
Veteran Member
if you could answer the question...
wouldn't observing how man kind has dealt with one another be a better way of learning how to get along and ultimately save us from ourselves?
Me Myself
Back to my username
Books are falible. Books that claim divine revelation are MANY .
I don´t think I am "saved" in the sense I don´t think there is something I must be saved from in the first place.
Besides maybe being tricked into thinking I am in "spiritual danger" or something like that.
Cassiopia
Sugar and Spice
Saved from what?
I don't believe I need saving from anything. When it comes to spiritual development I think it is up the individual to take responsibility for their own life. I may call upon Gods or supernatural entities for assistance, but everything will ultimately always be my choice.
Reverend Richard
New Thought Minister
If you wrote a book, I'd most likely read it!
I'm currently reading "Forged: Writing in the Name of God", by Bart Ehrman, and I find it fascinating to find out who wrote (or probably did not write) the New Testament, and why.
Your question above does emit a wide variety of responses. From the Catholic Church's perspective (if I may?) --- some posters are right in that we do not know and cannot know who will be in heaven and who will not be allowed into heaven --- despite what some passages may imply to some believers.
We will all be judged, both on our faith and on our prayers, on how much we cared about God or ignored him, on what the Virgin Mary once reported what angered God the most (i.e. our shameless immorality and our foul ingratitude). But also, and very importantly, we will be judged as to how we treated our fellow man. Were we charitable to the needy or just by throwing them a few crumbs did we feel justified? Were we kind to others or did we ridicule them behind their backs? How did we treat others or think of others on a daily basis. And so on.
Hence, come judgment day, as Scripture says (in so many words) we will all be shocked, one way or another. And thank God for purgatory because next to none of us deserve to go directly to heaven. I cannot tell you who may end up in hell but I shudder at the thought.
We will all be judged, both on our faith and on our prayers, on how much we cared about God or ignored him, on what the Virgin Mary once reported what angered God the most (i.e. our shameless immorality and our foul ingratitude). But also, and very importantly, we will be judged as to how we treated our fellow man. Were we charitable to the needy or just by throwing them a few crumbs did we feel justified? Were we kind to others or did we ridicule them behind their backs? How did we treat others or think of others on a daily basis. And so on.
Hence, come judgment day, as Scripture says (in so many words) we will all be shocked, one way or another. And thank God for purgatory because next to none of us deserve to go directly to heaven. I cannot tell you who may end up in hell but I shudder at the thought.
Reverend Richard
New Thought Minister
As a former Southern Baptist, and later a Catholic, I have seen both sides of this. Most Baptists believe "once saved, always saved" so that once you have accepted Jesus as y our personal savior, you can no longer be "snatched" by the devil and sent to hell. Later when I converted to Catholicism, that assurance was taken away.
But more to your point above, if it is true that we cannot know whether we are "saved" or not, then it makes God a fickle deity. Scripture variously describes God as jealous, vengeful, and wrathful, but also compassionate, loving and forgiving. Those adjectives sound waaaay to human and they sound more like humanity's unsuccessful attempt to describe a deity who is beyond comprehension. Man tried to understand and describe God in human terms, and in my view man, in terms of scripture, got it wrong. A deity who is omniscient and omnipotent would have no need to punish his creation because he is jealous or angry over our lack of worship and devotion. That would make him no better than humans in terms of his ability to control his emotions - if indeed God has emotions.
While I do believe God exists, He is nowhere near the wrathful, vengeful God of scripture.
I could provide you with scores of New Testament Scripture that suggest there is an accountability for our actions, thoughts and words --- regardless if we are saved or not. Such as, you will not be released from prison until you have paid the last penny. People in hell are not released from their prison, people in purgatory are.
I do not agree that not knowing if we are saved or not makes God a fickle deity. Assurance breeds complacency and is also a sign of ingratitude. This is not what God wants of His creation. Not unlike if we knew exactly when Christ would return, many on earth would play and pleasure until maybe a month before His return and then repent and get saved. How utterly deplorable trying to game God.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. We are all subject to the trial while on earth. Expounding on that theme would make it very clear (to me) why God does not want to tell us you are saved, relax, you have nothing to fear, nor nothing more required of you. It is detrimental to ourselves and to those around us.
Hmmm ... that hasn't been my experience -- in fact, quite the opposite.
Perhaps it depends more on the individual? I.e., some may need the threat of future punishment as motivation to behave, while others may not.
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I wish I'd said that! As always I'm a day late and a dollar short (well, a couple of days late
).
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Don't you want to ride a unicorn to the peak of candy mountain?
Well to that individual who believes in the assurance of his salvation, yet continues to sin excessively, should that not still then remain a good enough reason to keep the threat of future repercussions as part of the teaching? Or do you think God will not care about his sins, since he believed and accepted Christ as savior?
Reverend Richard
New Thought Minister
First, why are you shouting?
Let me say that I am not attempting to disparage your beliefs. When I was a Baptist, and later a Catholic, I could quote scripture almost as well as anyone, and as a young adult I taught Bible study lessons to other young adults. However, as I began to delve more deeply into where scripture came from, and how it came to be assembled into othodoxy, it slowly became apparent that scripture is, for the most part, unreliable at best.
I am not saying we need to throw the baby Jesus out with the baptismal water. Scripture has much to teach us in terms of morals, and in terms of teaching us to show compassion for fellow human beings. But using scripture to condemn others, or to to inspire in others the fear of hell and damnation, is little more than "carrot and stick" salvation. If I only love God and show compassion for others out of fear of God's retribution, am I really any better off, other than betting on being a "good Christian" so I will achieve my reward in heaven?
It's all well and good to study scripture, and I do, but not just scripture from Christianity, but also from Buddhism and Hinduism. God is not a Christian, nor a Muslim, nor a Jew, nor a Hindu. God is the God of all - regardless of how we worship him. :162: